Rodney McKay/John Sheppard Slash/Discussion/Appreciation

[Willow'sCat]

I'd agree with Teyla but Rodney and Shep? Or ronon or Weir?
and yes underdevelope is right, I wisched tehy wouldn't do that much Rodney eps but show teh other charcters besides you can reveel a little something withing a "normal" (plot) episode.

On the topic of fanfic vs show...I'd definitely say that I actually prefer the show to fanfics. I mean, I'm not sure how you can enjoy the writings if you don't first like the show. Yes, the fictions delve more deeply into the characters (which is nice) but the plots are usually less interesting. If I want to be entertained and diverted, I'll watch the show...if I want more than that I'll go to fanfic. So I see the fan writings as more of supplementary materials.

First LOVE the Wallpaper Stef.

I don't prefer the fics to the show or vise versa for that matter, I don't think I said that I was meaning that SGA to me has slipped in quality of scripts and is often IMHO writing its characters so OOC that I see no difference sometimes between the Cr@p in some fanfics and the actual show... some of the eps read like bad fanfics IMHO. I have had major problems with the show of late, so when I read a fic where the characters are fleshed out for the reader, even if sometimes they are still silly, I have to wonder why the actual writers of the show are sometimes unable to write the characters they are responsible for in the first place (well Brad/Robert anyway).

Don't misunderstand me, I don't want SGA to become BSG or some hybrid serious show, I just want some flesh on the bones of the characters, I don't even think we need the "character based" eps to get more info/background/development about say...Sheppard just a few lines here and there would do it, I mean in Tao of Rodney...

Spoilers Tao of Rodney

Spoiler:

In the scene where Sheppard is sitting on his bed and McKay is on the floor, now instead of Sheppard flicking through a magazine he could of said something *just briefly* about his life, his upbringing... why would that have been so hard to slip in? And really that moment would have been just right for a one on one talk (McShep aside) just two guys talking, no matter what Sheppard has said no one is so bad at expressing their feelings that they can't talk about something that reflects on their past, didn't even need to be that heavy, just make conversation. Yes he did talk a little about what happened in Epiphany but WE saw that ep we already knew or guessed all of what he said... new information on Sheppard's past would have been really nice in that scene. Just my opinion.

TPTB have said they are not that kind of show, but seriously I think in 2006/7 you are not going to last on TV by being an all SFX show, you need characters you can care about, any show needs that, but if they don't tell you anything about themselves why should you care? Why should I care? So I rely sometimes on fics to help me through the lack of development of the characters. Even if it isn't canon it is still better then being left in the dark.

I do fancy them both, but I also do want to be McKay or Sheppard...

Why does that not surprise me! I can understand that a little, but I don't know if I consciously sit back when reading a fic, no matter how PG it is and think dam I want McKay to say those words to me, orI want Sheppard to be by my bedside when I am sick *and in the infirmary*

OK maybe sometimes but I guess I am more voyeur then participant!

When I wrote slashfic, especially during the intimate scenes, I tended to picture myself as one character or the other--at least in the sense that I put myself in the position of the POV character (I usually wrote in first person) and identified with his emotions and physical sensations (inasmuch as a woman can identify with a guy's physical sensations during sex ). In every slash pairing, I always identify with one male character over the other and it's not always the character I find most attractive (though usually is). And for me, it was wanting to be that character, to understand the complexities of a m/m relationship, the vulnerabilities, <>

I think to write them you would definitely need to understand what motivates them, and if the show is not giving you any clues to that I understand trying to explore that by using your own experiences or particular interests and of course imagination; but that to me is very different then Mary Suein'.

I understand why the writer would have to identify with the characters, that makes perfect sense. I even understand identifying more with one character over the other when reading, again makes perfect sense... but actually wanting to be Sheppard or McKay... to the point where you change them so your characteristics are stronger in one or the other... that to me is where the dreaded Mary Sue comes in and that is what I was referring to in my initial post.

Me too! I can't think of anything more erotic than two guys falling for each other and going all the way. Yum.

Yum indeed.

[the old briar pipe]

On the topic of fanfic vs show...I'd definitely say that I actually prefer the show to fanfics. I mean, I'm not sure how you can enjoy the writings if you don't first like the show. Yes, the fictions delve more deeply into the characters (which is nice) but the plots are usually less interesting. If I want to be entertained and diverted, I'll watch the show...if I want more than that I'll go to fanfic. So I see the fan writings as more of supplementary materials.

Oddly, a friend of mine won't watch the show anymore due to the moral ambiguity the characters have been embracing, but she still loves the slash fic. Go figure.

I guess I haven't found any writers/writings that I really love. Don't get me wrong, I've read some pretty great stories but sometimes I feel like the characters are written either completely out of character or to the extreme (meaning they're 10x snarkier or sarcastic than normal). But this is just my experience, and I am by no means a fanfic expert.

I know what you mean. FF requires a different set of suspension-of-disbelief muscles. The writing's not filtered through the actors, so you don't get the visual backup.

But there's another element to SGA fic - most of it is crack. I mean that in the best way. It's one of the few fandoms where clicking on a link gives you equal chances at the serious or the absurd - or possibly both at the same time. I actually like that. Humor is harder to write than drama, or so common wisdom runs, but many of the writers are very good at coming up with the absurd.

I don't mean to insult anyone here because I know how hard fics can be to write, to maintain the characters' voices and stay true to them while trying to do something new (I am trying my hand at one right now to ill effects). I respect anyone who takes the time to write one and, for the most part, I have enjoyed reading them...I just don't love many the way I love the show.

I'm glad you love the show that much.

Writing is hard, ff or otherwise, especially when you just get started. But the best slash writers have been in fandom for easily over a decade, and they are very good. You might consider giving a couple of them a shot.

[smushybird]

I understand why the writer would have to identify with the characters, that makes perfect sense. I even understand identifying more with one character over the other when reading, again makes perfect sense... but actually wanting to be Sheppard or McKay... to the point where you change them so your characteristics are stronger in one or the other... that to me is where the dreaded Mary Sue comes in and that is what I was referring to in my initial post.

Oh yes, I wouldn't want either character changed in the slightest. I see that in plenty of fanfic. I'm reading along and then either McKay or Sheppard do something that my gut feeling tells me they'd never do or say and I usually stop reading at that point. I don't know how true it is for the rest of you readers, but I have very strong feelings about how these boys behave and react to situations and I just fall right out of the story if they're out of character--and same with the show itself, really. Whenever Shep is a complete insensitive jerk or Rodney's portrayed as a screaming idiot, it's depressing. I understand that they have a group of writers doing different eps, and maybe they each see the characters a little differently--but dear god--some of the extremes they've gone to have very nearly put me off the show altogether. Even when Liz is OOC, it bothers me and I don't even like her much.

And I guess that's part of why I don't like to read AU stories. If it isn't our boys and their relationship, I'm just not very interested. Anyway, these two are so slashable in their own universe, I don't need to leave it to be happy...as long as they're in character.

[Willow'sCat]

I don't know how true it is for the rest of you readers, but I have very strong feelings about how these boys behave and react to situations and I just fall right out of the story if they're out of character--and same with the show itself, really. Whenever Shep is a complete insensitive jerk or Rodney's portrayed as a screaming idiot, it's depressing.

It worries me more when the show does it, if the show can't get its own characters right then really what hope do fic writers have? They have to go on what the show says is in character so if one week "so and so" does this but the next he would never entertain that idea....

And I guess that's part of why I don't like to read AU stories. If it isn't our boys and their relationship, I'm just not very interested. Anyway, these two are so slashable in their own universe, I don't need to leave it to be happy...as long as they're in character.

I really like AU fics, sometimes the more ridiculous the setting the better although they still need to be in character. As for them being in their universe, well a lot of the "Atlantis" based fanfics I have read don't actually use Atlantis any better then the show does IMHO! But yes give me a good fic set in their verse and I am happy. Of course I am not that into all the tech side of scifi, so a really involved fic with just a touch of slash is not my kind of fic, I prefer more character involvement then pure tech/alien plots.

That may also explain why I am having problems with the show at the moment.

Oddly, a friend of mine won't watch the show anymore due to the moral ambiguity the characters have been embracing, but she still loves the slash fic.

I am not surprised, many shows are cancelled but people still love writing and reading the fics. Also I can understand your friend's problem with the show, to me it had a heart in season one then lost it almost completely by season 3, it is trying to get it back but I think it may be too late. I certainly don't see any moral characters on the show as it stands. I mean yes they are human and humans do and say stupid things, and no I am not a big one for screaming about morality but in TV I have to at least like the characters or understand why they are treating others so badly and I am not "getting it" in SGA. They seem to use excuses to justify their actions rather then actual experiences.

But you know wrong thread maybe for this chatter...

[Orovingwen]

I don't prefer the fics to the show or vise versa for that matter, I don't think I said that I was meaning that SGA to me has slipped in quality of scripts and is often IMHO writing its characters so OOC that I see no difference sometimes between the Cr@p in some fanfics and the actual show... some of the eps read like bad fanfics IMHO. I have had major problems with the show of late, so when I read a fic where the characters are fleshed out for the reader, even if sometimes they are still silly, I have to wonder why the actual writers of the show are sometimes unable to write the characters they are responsible for in the first place (well Brad/Robert anyway).

Don't misunderstand me, I don't want SGA to become BSG or some hybrid serious show, I just want some flesh on the bones of the characters, I don't even think we need the "character based" eps to get more info/background/development about say...Sheppard just a few lines here and there would do it, I mean in Tao of Rodney...

Spoilers Tao of Rodney

Spoiler:

In the scene where Sheppard is sitting on his bed and McKay is on the floor, now instead of Sheppard flicking through a magazine he could of said something *just briefly* about his life, his upbringing... why would that have been so hard to slip in? And really that moment would have been just right for a one on one talk (McShep aside) just two guys talking, no matter what Sheppard has said no one is so bad at expressing their feelings that they can't talk about something that reflects on their past, didn't even need to be that heavy, just make conversation. Yes he did talk a little about what happened in Epiphany but WE saw that ep we already knew or guessed all of what he said... new information on Sheppard's past would have been really nice in that scene. Just my opinion.

TPTB have said they are not that kind of show, but seriously I think in 2006/7 you are not going to last on TV by being an all SFX show, you need characters you can care about, any show needs that, but if they don't tell you anything about themselves why should you care? Why should I care? So I rely sometimes on fics to help me through the lack of development of the characters. Even if it isn't canon it is still better then being left in the dark.

Well I actually watch BSG for the vew rather then the characters

Anyway I agree when you say they could reveel more of the charcters BUT
1) sheppard is a quite person and don't talk about himself (and no he wouldn't just say something, he needs a reason)
2) McKay does so
3) Weir we doesn't see her nenough in such "relaxed" situations she could say something
4) Beckett did in Phantoms (not that it's nearly enough)

I don't wanne justify what TPTB do just I don't see it as such a "big thing" that I don't like the show anymore.

Epiphany is a crap episode, it doesn't do anything for the big plot, we don't get to know Shep better and the story wasn't that good either.
The only good thing was Rodney because he was all worried about Shep and that it's all his fault (and we say that Beckett volunteered! )


On the "Identify with characters" topic: identify is something else than think of how would I react to that situation and bring something from that experience POV to it or something like thta. But identiyfing is I=McKay and really put yourself in the fic NOT think of what would I do and then transprire that int the fic. every author does that, becuase it makes it more realiistic if it has a base rather than only is you imagination.
So if you ground charcters or give them more coulor with personal expirence/thoughts/whatnot is a very good thing just I knwo people who just want the charcter to do that without thinking if the charcter would do it and that's why such charcters are more puppets and persons.

[sueKay]

thought you'd like this link

http://velocitygrass.livejournal.com/18042.html

also check out her review of Rising...fantastic

[Willow'sCat]

Well I actually watch BSG for the vew rather then the characters

Sorry what do you mean by "vew" ? And I have never watched BSG myself I just hear it is less moral and more serious or just depressing then most shows...I have no idea.

Anyway I agree when you say they could reveel more of the charcters BUT
1) sheppard is a quite person and don't talk about himself (and no he wouldn't just say something, he needs a reason)
2) McKay does so
3) Weir we doesn't see her nenough in such "relaxed" situations she could say something
4) Beckett did in Phantoms (not that it's nearly enough)

Well Sheppard is only a "quiet person" because TPTB write him like that, but as a character develops and hopefully grows TPTB can decide in a life and death situation (what more reason do you need???) like ToR

Spoilers Tao of Rodney

Spoiler:

to allow him to open up more, and I really was just meaning instead of the IMHO vacuous talk and perusing a mag... he could have said something a little more in character with his intelligence as Rodney was facing his death... I did love how Sheppard refused to talk about Rodney's eulogy that was in character, and really hinted big time at how much Sheppard cares about Rodney (friend/lover whatever!) I just think sometimes the writers use "he is a man and men doen't say or do that" as an excuse for not exploring characters... why waste their time on that when they can have a SFX instead?!

As for McKay, he often does not need any reason to speak but again in ToR he was allowed to behave differently because it was life and death... it was a free pass in a way. Although that still pisses me off, I really hate shows that make characters do and say things only to pretend it NEVER happened in future eps.... No I see no contradiction in that and my previous paragraph.

I don't wanne justify what TPTB do just I don't see it as such a "big thing" that I don't like the show anymore.

Well I do, I only watch half a dozen show as it is, so one going as I see it off the rails in the last couple of season's annoys the heck out of me! I see shows that through long seasons (6-10 years) run out of steam and you except that as par for the course, but SGA is only 2 and half seasons old! They should be just hitting their stride. Sadly I don't see it that way and I can't stay quiet.

SueKay thanks for the link I like reading how others interpret eps with slash goggles and don't forget about LJ community "The Gay Chip" hilarious at times! Although a little quiet at the mo.

[Orovingwen]

Sorry what do you mean by "vew" ? And I have never watched BSG myself I just hear it is less moral and more serious or just depressing then most shows...I have no idea.

sorry, typo. it's view.
And I eman it for teh style of teh show for the characters interactions (it's for me mor elean back then participate) or hey eye candy^^ But also how it's shot (reminds me very much of firefly).
But you can't compare it to SGA becuase teh setting is a whole diffrent.

Well Sheppard is only a "quiet person" because TPTB write him like that, but as a character develops and hopefully grows TPTB can decide in a life and death situation (what more reason do you need???) like ToR

yeah but teh thing is quite persons don't talk taht much so you can't say it's the writers fault he doesn't talk much it's more theire fault that they put such a chracter in it.
And I say in a life and death situation shep woudl never open up he needs a "secure inviremoent" to do so. when there is life and death he goes back to his military training and what not.

*not read the spoiler this time*

[QUOTE]
Well I do, I only watch half a dozen show as it is, so one going as I see it off the rails in the last couple of season's annoys the heck out of me! I see shows that through long seasons (6-10 years) run out of steam and you except that as par for the course, but SGA is only 2 and half seasons old! They should be just hitting their stride. Sadly I don't see it that way and I can't stay quiet.

I have 12 regular shows.
And I think it's mroe how the show is created. SGA wants to entertain, teh missions teh big plot is the center of teh show in BSG teh charcters are. you create for them an inviroment with cylons and a deperate situation and whatnot and then look what happens.

Besides I never watched TV shows for following the charcter developemnt. It actually wasn't possible until now because when I watch showson TV they are mixed up with re-runs and you have to wait years toget new eps so you never have a "clean timeline".
And now I watch a few episodes in a row. Notreally better either.
I mean I love to see charcters grow and such but the main reason is be have a nice story and be entertained by the show, I don't know it another way. And in SGA teh charcters are interesting enough to stay with them.

I remember thinking of "we don't now the charcters at all" in season 1 but then I thought it's maybe becuase we knwo SG-1 since so many years and after that I wasn't botehred by it anymore.
I don't say you're wrong but I say I don't bother that much

[Willow'sCat]

OK Spoilers for Sunday and a cap that I think you will like... but sadly as slashy as it got on screen for McKay/Sheppard in this episode

Again spoilers for Sunday don't read if you don't want to know....

I mean it!

Spoiler:

OK so first things first from a slash view point, this was not a great episode, I am sure fanfic will be more then able and willing to turn that around but on screen McKay didn't have much time with Sheppard at all this week.... I even think in my paranoia it was deliberate...

My take on what happened in TPTB writers meeting before the episode was penned: "hey lets split up McKay/Sheppard for one of the most important episodes of the year!!!" "Yeah that will make sense!"


Anyway....

Sheppard use to be married *it is now canon* he told Ronon. He also told him he was crap at it *cough* marriage *cough*

McKay is "seeing" Katie Brown... I know I am thinking smoke screen, must keep Sheppard protected from DADT regs.... also apparently Teyla has a huge crush on Sheppard, I kinda like that, not that I want ship of any flavour on the show but I would rather her then Weir for so many reasons and in my slash riddled mind it is fine, it means nothing.

And no we get absolutely no real emotional moment at all between McKay and Sheppard *I do feel robbed actually from just a general fan point of view* it should have happened IMHO they should have had a moment but instead we got Ronon of all people *figuratively* reaching out for McKay... oh well the McDex fans will be happy.



OK so *spoilers relating to Carson*

d
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y
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d
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w
a
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k
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!
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!
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!


Carson dies trying to save the life of one of his patients.... and it leads to a funeral and this is the cap of McKay and Sheppard at the Funeral...

Sorry my copy *cough* of the ep is yet to be in HD so this is as good as I could get... and yeah Sheppard in his Dress Blues *sad but so squee worthy* Oh and McKay in a rather fetching suit I might add. *waits patiently for someone on LJ to turn this into a wedding manip!* It is so there for the maniping!!! (that's a word)

*sniff* poor Carson *sniff*

Anyway that is my bit on Sunday for now, I will return later hopefully with better caps if no one else wants or can post them. Please if you do post caps *yes please* put them in spoiler tags if they even hint at what happened.

[psychofilly]

Hi, my name is Becky and I'm a slasher. I'm fairly new to the forum and have mainly been over in the episode and debate threads, but I'm sort of branching out. Thought I'd pop over and say hi. I do write. I used to write for Angel (and Buffy) mainly het, Cordelia/Angel, but I read slash and occasionally dipped my toe in it to write. For whatever reason, McKay Sheppard completely captivated me as a couple. It took me a while to really get into the show, but now I like it even better that SG-1.

I like being able to have the canon friends relationship and being able to see the slashy subtext and read fic on the side. I also do lots of fan-art (mainly icons). I am finding the debate over slash fanfic interesting. I've written a little bit of SGA, just getting the feel for the universe and the characters. I keep intending to write porn and then ending up with friendship or pre-slash because my inner editor won't let me write PWP unless it's under duress by spear wielding pygmies.

I'm not sure if I agree with everything said in the thread about fanfic so far, but I think I need to go back a little further before jumping fully into the debate. Suffice it to say that I don't prefer one over the other in regards to fanfic vs the show. I think fanfic supports and nurtures my love for any given show and is fun because it lets us ask the "what if's" and put the characters in situations that the show would never be allowed to handle and see how they react. And then there is the crack... which is a category unto itself and is always fun to read.

Of course the main thrust of the fanfic topic seems to be *if it's well done* to which I agree. Unfortunately with all big fandoms you have to go through a lot of mediocre or worse fics to find the really good gems, but when you find them... oh man. I also love the process of writing, though I have no desire to go professional. I belong to a beta group that consists of both professional writers and avid armatures and they really kick my butt when needed.

Anyway, that's my long winded way of saying howdy, pleased to meet you, and I hope to get to know y'all better.

[Orovingwen]

@WillowsCat
will read if after I've seen teh episode.

Hi, my name is Becky

[...]

I'm not sure if I agree with everything said in the thread about fanfic so far, but I think I need to go back a little further before jumping fully into the debate. Suffice it to say that I don't prefer one over the other in regards to fanfic vs the show. I think fanfic supports and nurtures my love for any given show and is fun because it lets us ask the "what if's" and put the characters in situations that the show would never be allowed to handle and see how they react. And then there is the crack... which is a category unto itself and is always fun to read.

Of course the main thrust of the fanfic topic seems to be *if it's well done* to which I agree. Unfortunately with all big fandoms you have to go through a lot of mediocre or worse fics to find the really good gems, but when you find them... oh man. I also love the process of writing, though I have no desire to go professional. I belong to a beta group that consists of both professional writers and avid armatures and they really kick my butt when needed.

Anyway, that's my long winded way of saying howdy, pleased to meet you, and I hope to get to know y'all better.

*wave* hi Becky! welcome

on the fanfic topic. it's more about taste I guess because I know people who like "porn" writing, who like the story no matter how bad it's written when the idea behind it is good, and everything up to briliant fics.

As I said above I am very citicle. But I do understand what you mean with the writing prozess, when you're in the right mood it is so great.
As for teh prefessional.. most of "professional writers" can't love fromk that so it's not really a career opportunity

[Willow'sCat]

Hello psychofilly/Becky!

I wanted to say that even though I my sometimes say stuff about the fic writers the fact is I do not write, so everything I say is purely from the readers *mine* viewpoint. I know writing cannot always be easy and if the "plot bunnies" are acting up it must be hell, also I guess there are time constraints and RL gets in the way. I have much respect for the writers I do love and for anyone who is brave enough to get out there and write in fandom, I guess after reading something about what happened to one of my fave writers I was getting annoyed by the thought that often (especially on LJ and the like) you can't really even give a fic writer constructive criticism... sometimes the writers just want to hear how great their fic is. Of course a lot of people *may* think they are being constructive and are instead "bashing" I guess it is a fine line sometimes.

Oh one thing with Sunday I forgot *headdesk* that was kind of cute and slashy in general was... spoilers Sunday

Spoiler:

when Sheppard was talking to Ronon and he asked him if he (Ronon) was seeing anyone.... he said something like:

John: "are you seeing anyone"
Ronon: "as in a women?"
John: "women or a man"

LOL! Well it made me smile

[psychofilly]

As for teh prefessional.. most of "professional writers" can't love fromk that so it's not really a career opportunity

I'm not sure what you meant here. Are you saying "professional writers" can't make a living, or what exactly? I'm just unclear what you meant to say.

on the fanfic topic. it's more about taste I guess because I know people who like "porn" writing, who like the story no matter how bad it's written when the idea behind it is good, and everything up to briliant fics.

Say no more. I know, believe me. And while I like sexual content I actually (usually) don't like PWP or tons of smut. Sex is fine, balance is good, quality plot is better. My kink as a reader is intimacy and friendship, as opposed to just sex. And I don't read crappy fic. Don't have that much time to waste. I do want to write at least one fic where Mckayand Shep complete the deal so to speak, but plot keeps getting in the way. Right now, I still feel like I'm only barely getting a handle on the characters.

Hello psychofilly/Becky!

*waves* Howdy!

I wanted to say that even though I my sometimes say stuff about the fic writers the fact is I do not write, so everything I say is purely from the readers *mine* viewpoint. I know writing cannot always be easy and if the "plot bunnies" are acting up it must be hell, also I guess there are time constraints and RL gets in the way.

RL is a beyatch. Hee. Luckily for me, writing isn't my only coping mechanism. I also draw and paint and do fan-art. And read. Lots of fanfic.

I have much respect for the writers I do love and for anyone who is brave enough to get out there and write in fandom, I guess after reading something about what happened to one of my fave writers I was getting annoyed by the thought that often (especially on LJ and the like) you can't really even give a fic writer constructive criticism... sometimes the writers just want to hear how great their fic is. Of course a lot of people *may* think they are being constructive and are instead "bashing" I guess it is a fine line sometimes.

Of course I have no idea which author or what happened, but yes yes yes. The best thing that ever happened to me is someone I barely knew but respected the heck out of PM'ed me and asked me what motivated me to write a scene a certain way... that lead to the start of a beautiful (and creative) relationship. She took my next fic and ripped it up so hard it hurt, there was blood, I swear, but it was ten times better than what I would have come up with on my own and it helped me learn. I'm a huge fan of constructive criticism, and I understand perfectly about writer reaction. Sometimes people don't want to hear it, even after they ask for it.

I so need to watch this show. I love the McShep but I also OT4 the team, and this ep sounds like we got great team interaction.

[the old briar pipe]

Of course I have no idea which author or what happened, but yes yes yes. The best thing that ever happened to me is someone I barely knew but respected the heck out of PM'ed me and asked me what motivated me to write a scene a certain way... that lead to the start of a beautiful (and creative) relationship. She took my next fic and ripped it up so hard it hurt, there was blood, I swear, but it was ten times better than what I would have come up with on my own and it helped me learn. I'm a huge fan of constructive criticism, and I understand perfectly about writer reaction. Sometimes people don't want to hear it, even after they ask for it.

Gawd, yes, a good beta is worth their weight in gold, or your firstborn child, or a mountain of chocolate, or all three combined. LJ definitely does not provide concrit anymore, if it ever did (my memory is fuzzy), because the world pretty much always devolves to the smallest common denominator - in this case, people with no ability to take criticism. There need be only a few tantrums before everyone gets scared of making fandom an unhappy place (a reasonable fear, it's happened before) and stops posting anything but love.

That said, there's still a lemming effect, making me think that people who really can read and understand their own reactions to what they've read are also worth quite a lot. *looks at Willow'sCat fondly*

So hang onto your beta, Psychofilly! You are so very lucky to have her.

On a completely random note, I love McShep penguin stories. Here's a cute (PG) one: Antarctic Drift by Lavvyan. Please note that other fics on her journal may have higher ratings, and some are certainly adult only. They are labeled accordingly.

[Orovingwen]

I'm not sure what you meant here. Are you saying "professional writers" can't make a living, or what exactly? I'm just unclear what you meant to say.

technially yes. people who write books mostly have a "regular" job to make their living.
Besides not everybody who publish a book is a godo writer. Jeez I've read crappy books.

Say no more. I know, believe me. And while I like sexual content I actually (usually) don't like PWP or tons of smut. Sex is fine, balance is good, quality plot is better. My kink as a reader is intimacy and friendship, as opposed to just sex. And I don't read crappy fic. Don't have that much time to waste. I do want to write at least one fic where Mckayand Shep complete the deal so to speak, but plot keeps getting in the way. Right now, I still feel like I'm only barely getting a handle on the characters.

Well for me it depends. when I just need something to relax, not think or concentrate I read PWP fics but I actually like fics that shows the developing of teh relationship or how it influences the characters (be it slash or pre slash). Like why they are attracted to eachother (and I mean it actually on a emotional level and not "he's so hot") becuase that gives you more insight.

Of course I have no idea which author or what happened, but yes yes yes. The best thing that ever happened to me is someone I barely knew but respected the heck out of PM'ed me and asked me what motivated me to write a scene a certain way... that lead to the start of a beautiful (and creative) relationship. She took my next fic and ripped it up so hard it hurt, there was blood, I swear, but it was ten times better than what I would have come up with on my own and it helped me learn. I'm a huge fan of constructive criticism, and I understand perfectly about writer reaction. Sometimes people don't want to hear it, even after they ask for it.

that sounds really great. I actually never saw that betas do that, all I heard of Betas was correcting gramma/typos and they plot wholes or something. But not word by word sentence for sentence.

I once did that kinda beta and my "alpha" never gave me a fic again *lol* But I don't think that was the reason. But it was actually cool because I got so much inspired that I wrote my own short story^^
I just wished I had such a beta as you have one. I envy you!