Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Falcon Horus]

GW is definitely female heavy, and a good number of the McShep slashers are women. Hard for me to wrap my head around but true nonetheless. I met some of them at the con I went to. Nice people, but they just can't understand why everybody doesn't see what, to them, is just very obvious. So, again I say, ship is in the eye of the beholder.

Oh damn, I can't remember who had this gif in their sig over here with the secret gay-sign between Sheppard and McKay. That always made me laugh because they indeed both did the signal in exactly the same way. For the record, McShep is actually the canon slash ship if it could ever be canon that is - that would be it. They got plenty of chemistry going on. I'm sure of it.

I loved Jewel from Firefly, and I didn't really dislike Keller. I thought the character was badly written, too young for the part and wrong for Rodney, but none of that was Jewel's fault. I actually feel sorry for her having to put up with all the hate.

Jewel was more than aware of the hatred going on, I remember as much from a Q&A. She said she went to work, hoping not to come across people wearing big signs calling out for Beckett's return. Couldn't have been easy... I imagine. And indeed, nothing she could do about it.

I've met her few times now, and she's a classy, awesome lady, who turns me into a babbling idiot in a wink.

[Raelis]

It's so very subjective, and no one should say the other person is wrong to like a certain ship. Also, no one should say the other person is wrong not to like a ship and demand that they change their mind. That, I think is what got everybody around here all riled up.

I so agree with this. I don't care for John/Teyla (yep, I am also one of those people who don't feel romantic chemistry between the two of them at all, although I think they have excellent friendly chemistry - I do buy them as very close friends/almost siblings). But I agree that the ship definitely has merit, and I know it can be written very badly or amazingly well just like any other ship.

I just honestly think John and Elizabeth have a more interesting relationship. One John/Teyla shipper once said that she could never see John/Elizabeth working because they would have too much conflict in their relationship whereas John and Teyla's would be mostly harmony. While I think that yes, John and Liz would have some tension due to their respective roles and different life philosophies (soldier vs diplomat, military vs civilian), it's exactly this tension that makes them interesting to me! Also, tension does not preclude harmony in a relationship; they would disagree, sometimes very passionately, but when they work together, they are unstoppable. And most importantly, even if they disagree, they just get each other. To me, John and Teyla just do not have this... electricity, if you know what I mean.

GW is definitely female heavy, and a good number of the McShep slashers are women. Hard for me to wrap my head around but true nonetheless. I met some of them at the con I went to. Nice people, but they just can't understand why everybody doesn't see what, to them, is just very obvious. So, again I say, ship is in the eye of the beholder.

Females seem to be more active overall, expecially when it comes to shipping. There may be plenty of males here, they just don't speak out as much. As for slash, as far as I know,the absolute majority of fans who like m/m slash/McShep are straight women. Like, 90%. The statistics may be a bit faulty but it seems to be the general consensus that it's primarily heteresexual girls who go for male slash.

I seem to be in a very small minority of people who like Keller and see nothing wrong with her (yes, she was not the best-written character, but it often seems tha people tend to exaggerate her faults and ignore the exactly same faults in everybody else). The amount of hatred for her always left me puzzled. There are some hate-inspiring characters that I actually get why they are hated (Lana Lang from the show Smallville comes to mind). But Keller? I honestly have no idea. I always wince a little when another Keller-hating post pops up somewhere.

McKeller to me seemed very awkward because I just felt the actors were uncomfortable with it. I think David Hewlett even mentioned in some interview that the kissing scenes were hard for them because they regarded each other as brother and sister... I think it showed on screen. I can't watch McKeller romantic scenes because I cringe with second-hand embarassment.

[Lythisrose]

I'll just butt my head into the thread to say that I see John with chemistry with just about anyone, and see tons between him and Elizabeth as well as Teyla. Although the sister/brother vibe I get from Teyla and John is quite strong. I am a big fan of McShep, they just click (off and onscreen) so be it friendship or a relationship, it's my favorite pairing on the show. I really despise McKeller, it makes Rodney look creepy. I dislike it so much I really can't even read fic that keeps them as a couple (sorry to you guys and to the Graham novels). I do like Jewel though, she's such a pro and the writers did her a diservice with what they did with the character.

[Falcon Horus]

I'll just butt my head into the thread to say that I see John with chemistry with just about anyone...

Multishipper?

[Lythisrose]

Multishipper?

Definitely!

[Raelis]

I'll just butt my head into the thread to say that I see John with chemistry with just about anyone, and see tons between him and Elizabeth as well as Teyla. Although the sister/brother vibe I get from Teyla and John is quite strong. I am a big fan of McShep, they just click (off and onscreen) so be it friendship or a relationship, it's my favorite pairing on the show. I really despise McKeller, it makes Rodney look creepy. I dislike it so much I really can't even read fic that keeps them as a couple (sorry to you guys and to the Graham novels). I do like Jewel though, she's such a pro and the writers did her a diservice with what they did with the character.

What is it about this guy? I agree that he has chemistry with everyone, although to me it's different kind of chemistry depending on the character (brother/sister with Teyla, for example). I'm a bit of a multishipper too, though I have some preferred pairings (John/Elizabeth being one of them) and some pairings that just don't work for me. Like, I could never ever see John/Sam Carter working. Or John/Keller.

Elizabeth, though, is like a little black dress character for me; I could see her in many pairings.

[ShipperWriter]

Lythisrose is great! You get along with just about anybody. And your avatar is just awesome Flaniganness. If that's even a word.

Hey, Sparkies, remember that HS AU fic I started writing before my last "hiatus"? I'm trying to find it again. I know all my stuff on my computer and backup HD got deleted, but I know I posted snippets on here, so I'm going back to find them and start writing again.

Wish me luck ... *dives into old pages*

[Falcon Horus]

Definitely!

\o/ yay!

Wish me luck ... *dives into old pages*

Good luck!

[Southern Red]

I so agree with this. I don't care for John/Teyla (yep, I am also one of those people who don't feel romantic chemistry between the two of them at all, although I think they have excellent friendly chemistry - I do buy them as very close friends/almost siblings). But I agree that the ship definitely has merit, and I know it can be written very badly or amazingly well just like any other ship.

I see that too. If John and Teyla had shown that teasing side that I've seen from Joe and Rachel, I might have shipped them. But the sibling vibe is just too strong.

I just honestly think John and Elizabeth have a more interesting relationship. One John/Teyla shipper once said that she could never see John/Elizabeth working because they would have too much conflict in their relationship whereas John and Teyla's would be mostly harmony. While I think that yes, John and Liz would have some tension due to their respective roles and different life philosophies (soldier vs diplomat, military vs civilian), it's exactly this tension that makes them interesting to me! Also, tension does not preclude harmony in a relationship; they would disagree, sometimes very passionately, but when they work together, they are unstoppable. And most importantly, even if they disagree, they just get each other. To me, John and Teyla just do not have this... electricity, if you know what I mean.

I think that person may have forgotten LFP and most of S4. John and Teyla never had a harmonious relationship. She didn't get him and he ignored her except when he was ordering her around. People see what they want to see. For example, there were complaints that John let Elizabeth control him, yet how many times in S1 did we see them clash? Later I guess he just caved. So not John Sheppard.

McKeller to me seemed very awkward because I just felt the actors were uncomfortable with it. I think David Hewlett even mentioned in some interview that the kissing scenes were hard for them because they regarded each other as brother and sister... I think it showed on screen. I can't watch McKeller romantic scenes because I cringe with second-hand embarassment.

That's my whole problem with McKeller. I guess if I hadn't know they felt awkward, I might have thought differently. Plus the age difference was hard to overlook. And yes, some of the women paired with John were too young also, but that's typical in shows.

I'll just butt my head into the thread to say that I see John with chemistry with just about anyone, and see tons between him and Elizabeth as well as Teyla. Although the sister/brother vibe I get from Teyla and John is quite strong. I am a big fan of McShep, they just click (off and onscreen) so be it friendship or a relationship, it's my favorite pairing on the show. I really despise McKeller, it makes Rodney look creepy. I dislike it so much I really can't even read fic that keeps them as a couple (sorry to you guys and to the Graham novels). I do like Jewel though, she's such a pro and the writers did her a diservice with what they did with the character.

Agree on the McShep chemistry, and I think the Joe/David chemistry is even stronger. But seeing romance in it just baffles me when they are obviously both straight both in SGA and in RL.

What is it about this guy? I agree that he has chemistry with everyone, although to me it's different kind of chemistry depending on the character (brother/sister with Teyla, for example). I'm a bit of a multishipper too, though I have some preferred pairings (John/Elizabeth being one of them) and some pairings that just don't work for me. Like, I could never ever see John/Sam Carter working. Or John/Keller.

Elizabeth, though, is like a little black dress character for me; I could see her in many pairings.

John did have chemistry with everyone from Chuck to Radek and everyone in between, but not in a shippy way. I liked his relationship with Sam but ship would never have crossed my mind. Now Keller I could have seen if they had developed it, and yes, I am a hypocrite. LOL

And I could never see Elizabeth with anyone else but John. Nope, not ever. Oh, I also liked John's ex-wife Nancy and would have been fine with her in his life.

[Raelis]

I think that person may have forgotten LFP and most of S4. John and Teyla never had a harmonious relationship. She didn't get him and he ignored her except when he was ordering her around. People see what they want to see. For example, there were complaints that John let Elizabeth control him, yet how many times in S1 did we see them clash? Later I guess he just caved. So not John Sheppard.

Agreed, they did have plenty of conflict. Maybe that person felt that a person with the military mindset would have trouble being a a relationship with a person with the civilian mindset. John and Teyla are both 'warriors', so supposedly they would get along better. She also compared John/Ronon (harmony) vs John/Rodney (conflict) in a similar way. Naturally, I disagree. Maybe I just like the 'opposites attract' kind of relationships. Or maybe it's because I think John and Elizabeth both need a perspective that is different from their own, and them being together is a harmonious whole precisely because they complete each other. Yin and Yang, that sort of thing.

I have no idea where the "Elizabeth controls John" theory comes from. I mean, seriousy? Could anyone control John Sheppard? He agreed with her decisions because he respected the hell out of her, and she respected him just as much. Like or dislike the relationship, I don't understand how it's not obvious from the way they were each other.

Agree on the McShep chemistry, and I think the Joe/David chemistry is even stronger. But seeing romance in it just baffles me when they are obviously both straight both in SGA and in RL.

I won't even touch real life shipping. I never ship actors, so their real sexual orientations, etc don't matter to me. But slashers just see subtext on the show and interpret it in the way that allows them to see the characters as gay or bi. It's really no different from seeing bits of heterosexual subtext and piecing them together. There are almost no shows that have gay or lesbian characters that 1. have substantial screen-time; 2. are not presented as comic relief or villainized. So of course slashers would turn their gaze on the characters that are presented as straight and try and find some subtext for shipping. It's because straight characters are all they have.

Personally, I don't think shipping John/Rodney or John/Ronon or Teyla/Jennifer (my femslash pairing of choice) or Teyla/Kate is any different that shipping John/Elizabeth in terms of canonicity (is that a word?). All these pairings are not canon, but all have subtext that one could interpret as friendly/sibling or romantic. I see some subtext in this show that simply begs to be interpreted in a slashy way (the scene in Outcast comes to mind where Dave's reaction to John and Ronon is a bit peculiar). So I can totally see where the slashers are coming from!

Now Keller I could have seen if they had developed it, and yes, I am a hypocrite. LOL

I'm curious; why is Rodney/Jennifer unacceptable because of their age but not John/Keller? Is it because John seems to look somewhat younger than Rodney? Or is it maybe because John is the more traditionally handsome hero type? it's just that I saw other people expressing the same opinion. So I'm interested. (I'm beginning to think that many objections to Mckeller seem based on people feeling that Rodney is not 'hot' enough for her, lol.)

And I could never see Elizabeth with anyone else but John. Nope, not ever. Oh, I also liked John's ex-wife Nancy and would have been fine with her in his life.

I've read some Elizabeth/Daniel, Elizabeth/Jack, Elizabeth/Ronon and Elizabeth/Zelenka that were quite good. There's also Elizabeth/Cameron who never had any screentime together, but the idea of them was intriguing enough for some writers to try this ship as well, and the results were excellent. This is the joy of being a multishipper, I guess - you can see so many different takes on one character depending on who he/she is paired with, so many facets explored. John/Elizabeth is obviously the main Elizabeth pairing, though, and with good reason. Theirs is the relationship with the most depth and history.

[ShipperWriter]

Good luck!

I've found two parts, and one part that was saved on my netbook, but not the whole chapter inbetween. Gods, I just wanna smack myself right now. I don't know why, but the fic bunnies really want me to write this fic. Guess it's gonna have to be a weekend project. *shrugs*

EDIT: Anyhoodle, gotta skadaddle. Got some RL stuff to do. Back later!

[Southern Red]

I'm curious; why is Rodney/Jennifer unacceptable because of their age but not John/Keller? Is it because John seems to look somewhat younger than Rodney? Or is it maybe because John is the more traditionally handsome hero type? it's just that I saw other people expressing the same opinion. So I'm interested. (I'm beginning to think that many objections to Mckeller seem based on people feeling that Rodney is not 'hot' enough for her, lol.)

I'm not even going to touch the subject of subtext because then I would start having flashbacks to college literature classes and I'd have to kill myself. A lot of people today have been lead to believe that any subtext you think you see is fine and dandy, whereas old English teachers like me spent centuries trying to lead young minds to understand subtext in light of the author's actual intent. Thus, we start to twitch when any discussion of subtext comes up.

I would be happy, however, to answer your question. I think it might be that Joe looks so much younger than he really is in addition to the traditional leading man looks he has. We've been conditioned to expect certain actors to play certain parts, and people who run shows refuse for the most part to let them out of that narrow stereotype. McKay was the nerdy scientist for whom it was established right from the start that he had less than great luck with women. Therefore, we expected him to be paired with women like Katie Brown, not the hot young chick. Personally, I don't think of Keller first as being "hot." I see her as more the girl next door type, who would be fine with Rodney if she was about 10 years older.

In addition, we all know that whole thing was the writers acting out their own fantasies, and as fans, a lot of us didn't think it was appropriate.

[Raelis]

I'm not even going to touch the subject of subtext because then I would start having flashbacks to college literature classes and I'd have to kill myself. A lot of people today have been lead to believe that any subtext you think you see is fine and dandy, whereas old English teachers like me spent centuries trying to lead young minds to understand subtext in light of the author's actual intent. Thus, we start to twitch when any discussion of subtext comes up.

That's too bad, because I'd love to hear what you all think on the subject. My opinion is, as far as fanfic goes, any subtext is fair game. Because it's fanfic, something people do for fun! I am very careful about separating canon and fanon though. While I may see a certain scene as full of subtext for my preferred pairing, I know in the back of my mind that the intent behind the scene may be, and often is, completely different. Although I'm not sure I want to consider Stargate authors' actual intent behind subtext because we all know it's John/Teyla UST, and I can't get on board with that.
This reminds me of the many arguments on the Harry Potter boards where people couldn't agree if the author's own interpretation of her characters trumped everybody else's. On the one hand it sounds ridiculous (of course her interpretation is the only one that matters! She wrote the damn books!), but on the other hand, many people got so many things out of the books that the author never even considered, and all those things were backed up by canon. And this begs the question: what should the readers/veiwers do if their interpretation does not match the author's/show creator's? So yeah,it's an incredibly interesting topic for me.

I would be happy, however, to answer your question. I think it might be that Joe looks so much younger than he really is in addition to the traditional leading man looks he has. We've been conditioned to expect certain actors to play certain parts, and people who run shows refuse for the most part to let them out of that narrow stereotype. McKay was the nerdy scientist for whom it was established right from the start that he had less than great luck with women. Therefore, we expected him to be paired with women like Katie Brown, not the hot young chick. Personally, I don't think of Keller first as being "hot." I see her as more the girl next door type, who would be fine with Rodney if she was about 10 years older.

So it's Rodney not being hot enough (in the traditional sense, because I think he is hot, in a nerdy scientist way,of course). Poor Rodney, always not taken seriously by women. On the other hand, the guy does have like a gazillion of female fans. I think Rodney/Keller is a much better match that the dysfunctional Rodney/Katie (I shudder when I think about their scenes in Quarantine), and I think he absolutely deserves to be in a relationship with the woman of his dreams, which Keller apparently is. But I totally get the icky feeling that comes when you know that the writers drool over Keller and see McKay as the manifestation of themselves.

[Brie]

There are so many good comments about these so I didn’t know who I would quote because well, I agree with all of them.

Ships
Ships is defiantly in the eyes of the beholder.
I was always a Sparky-shipper since I saw the show the first time when it first aired here back in 2005 but I understood what the writers wanted to say (though I will also admit that I’m glad they didn’t go there) but for me Sparky was just obvious that I couldn’t see anything else, even when I re-watched the show again years later and tried to see if from a ‘Sheyla’ POV I couldn’t, it didn’t make any sense to me then and it doesn’t make more sense to me now, but I understand that it makes sense to some.
I must say that I’m glad that it was parky for me though and I’m glad that it’s that way for a lot of people, it was pretty amazing to come here to GW and see that this thread was as active as it was and still is, and it made me happy to see so many other fans out there.

Keller
I like Jewel even if I’m not a huge fan of Keller, and like someone said, it’s all in the writing really, Keller would probably have worked better if they hadn’t tried to do so much with her, I mean, it was the new job, the love life and so many other things that took over too much and it all wound up becoming a big mess instead of allowing her to start small and then grow.

But I also have to add that I think that’s the case with a lot of the characters and the actors on SGA, that they had such a talented group of actors yet many times the writers didn’t take advantage of that and did great things with the characters but instead just let them be or wrote things that didn’t work.

[Raelis]

I like Jewel even if I’m not a huge fan of Keller, and like someone said, it’s all in the writing really, Keller would probably have worked better if they hadn’t tried to do so much with her, I mean, it was the new job, the love life and so many other things that took over too much and it all wound up becoming a big mess instead of allowing her to start small and then grow.

But I also have to add that I think that’s the case with a lot of the characters and the actors on SGA, that they had such a talented group of actors yet many times the writers didn’t take advantage of that and did great things with the characters but instead just let them be or wrote things that didn’t work.

The bolded part is where I particularly agree. They should have taken some time with Keller, I think. She got too much screen time too early at the expense of other characters,which led to resentment. I like Keller, so I did not have a problem with that, but I certainly understand why others did. I just wish the hate wasn't so strong. She does not deserve that.


ETA: Just started reading the first episode of SGA-Rising. I love the idea of a canon-compliant season 6,and I always preferred plot-heavy fanfic that captures the feel of the episodes. I think it's going to be an amazing journey!