Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

I like the way you think, SR!!

However, with her aversion toward weapons, I can't see her as a permenant part of a team. I could see Elizabeth more like a diplomat in residence. She'd only go offworld as needed, not just with John's team, leaving her free to translate the database and explore the city. Plus that would give us the chance of a see a scene where Elizabeth is going offworld with another team and John pulling said team leader aside before the mission to tell him/her not to take any risks, I. E. "You will bring Elizabeth back safe and sound or else."

i think Major Lorne's team would be the second safest team (the first being Colonel Sheppard's team) that elizabeth could go on a mission with and plus I'm sure Lorne knows how much Elizabeth means to John (and visa versa) as in the lost boys when lorne commented on how much she worries about John and his team's safety.

here's the snippet from Lost Boys

INT—ATLANTIS GATE ROOM

WEIR
You're back early.

LORNE
Ah, Jenev's kind of a closed society. Very polite and very courteous, but completely uninterested in having anything to do with us.

WEIR
Well, better that than hostile, I suppose. Colonel Sheppard's team is three hours overdue.

LORNE
It wouldn't be the first time. Any radio contact?

WEIR
None since they left.

LORNE
(smiling)
Well, you know those guys.

WEIR
What do I know about those guys?

LORNE
(unconcerned)
Just that they tend to get all caught up in whatever it is they're doing, and sometimes they don't check in. They forget how much you worry. That we worry. Collectively, I mean.

WEIR
(subtly pressuring)
Yes, we do.

LORNE
(relenting)
Yeah…we do.
(to his team)
Okay, guys, looks like we're heading back out.

WEIR
Thank you, Major.

LORNE
You're welcome.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

K so I came up with this question during work. Don't know how it came it came up but it did. But I thought it would strike up a nice discussion amongst us since we have great conversations over here....

So say the TPTB kept Elizabeth exactly where she was on Atlantis, no Replicator beam sent her flying to her "death" and the monstrosity known as Lifeline didn't happen. First off would you like to make this change or still have Elizabeth left behind and have a dynamic plot for the whole season of John trying to find her? And would we see a less tormented John Sheppard had she been around? Whatcha think.

Speaking for myself, personally I think I would have preferred the John loses Elizabeth and tries to find her route. That's just me, though. I've mentioned this a couple times now, but it's Probably because I think some of my favorite stories growing up have involved a cast of characters suddenly dealing with an expected void in their ranks.

And over the years I've thought that some the most powerful twists have involved establishing a status quo and then shattering it. But only if done properly.

The problem was that in SGA's case, while there was some good stuff that came from it, there was no real payoff. That kind of proves how wrong it can go with without doing everything correctly.

Although I suppose that's because the writers and myself as a fan were obviously on different pages. They were improving the show by getting rid of Weir, rather than writing story about her being gone.

[mandogater]

i think Major Lorne's team would be the second safest team (the first being Colonel Sheppard's team) that elizabeth could go on a mission with and plus I'm sure Lorne knows how much Elizabeth means to John (and visa versa) as in the lost boys when lorne commented on how much she worries about John and his team's safety.

Very true and I really loved Elizabeth's little chat with Lorne in that episode. But if any of the teams met a culture that doesn't trust easily but wants to build a realtionship with Atlantis are you go to let that team leader try to muddle his/her way through the talks or are you going to send them back with a well respected mediator?

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Very true and I really loved Elizabeth's little chat with Lorne in that episode. But if any of the teams met a culture that doesn't trust easily but wants to build a realtionship with Atlantis are you go to let that team leader try to muddle his/her way through the talks or are you going to send them back with a well respected mediator?

i say well respected mediator but if things went "Squirrelly" (as coined by Jack O'Neill in the SG-1 episode "Icon". It wouldn't hurt to have an extra team with that team that made first contact in the first place.

[ShWeir]

Morning all! I'm going of to Wales, hopefuly they'll be Wi-fi and I can drop in here. See ya later!

[Southern Red]

I think that developing Elizabeth's character as being a member of John's team would've been an excellent direction to go. Here and there, we got to see her other "Daniel Jackson" skills, like translating and using Wraith/Ancient languages, but most of the time she was the light at home, waiting on the teams to return. If she had been allowed to have a different role in Atlantis, TPTW would've had a whole new direction to take Elizabeth.

But I digress.

*clears throat*

SGA Rising is awesome.

If they had gone that route, it would have removed all the reasons to criticize her as just staying in Atlantis and wringing her hands. Obviously, these writers weren't clever enough to come up with such a solution.

I like the way you think, SR!!

However, with her aversion toward weapons, I can't see her as a permenant part of a team. I could see Elizabeth more like a diplomat in residence. She'd only go offworld as needed, not just with John's team, leaving her free to translate the database and explore the city. Plus that would give us the chance of a see a scene where Elizabeth is going offworld with another team and John pulling said team leader aside before the mission to tell him/her not to take any risks, I. E. "You will bring Elizabeth back safe and sound or else."

I like this idea and never really wanted her as a permanent part of John's team. There would, as you indicated, be a much better opportunity for drama with having her rotate teams as needed. I can see John sending way too many Marines along and Lorne suffering.

Shep: I'm sending a couple extra Marines with your team, Major.
Lorne: More Marines, Sir, we already have four.
Shep: And I told them not to leave Elizabeth's side.
Lorne: I don't think there's room in the jumper.
Shep: Make room, Major. That's an order.
Lorne: Yes Sir. I know how you worry about her, Sir.
Shep: Major. *looks threatening*
Lorne: About us, I know you worry about us all, Sir.
Shep: And don't you forget it, Major.

Speaking for myself, personally I think I would have preferred the John loses Elizabeth and tries to find her route. That's just me, though. I've mentioned this a couple times now, but it's Probably because I think some of my favorite stories growing up have involved a cast of characters suddenly dealing with an expected void in their ranks.

And over the years I've thought that some the most powerful twists have involved establishing a status quo and then shattering it. But only if done properly.

The problem was that in SGA's case, while there was some good stuff that came from it, there was no real payoff. That kind of proves how wrong it can go with without doing everything correctly.

Although I suppose that's because the writers and myself as a fan were obviously on different pages. They were improving the show by getting rid of Weir, rather than writing story about her being gone.

This would have worked also, as long as they didn't go a whole season with no Elizabeth. Maybe a couple of eps while they find false leads and get progressively more frustrated and John isn't sleeping and Rodney is cranky and Teyla and Ronon don't know what to do with them and then finally, when hope is almost lost, they find her. Whew! And John realizes life is too short and he won't survive losing her again. But of course, he's not sure how she feels. So they can drag that out for the rest of the season but at least we know he cares about her until he finally lets her know.

The sentence in bold says it all. There was never any payoff. That's why there were so many shippers with opposing views. They never gave the casual viewer a clear look at any ship that they knew would work out in the end. Look at shows like Castle and Bones. You knew, no matter what they did or who they hooked them up with temporarily, that those couples would end up together. It was obvious. I thought at first that Sparky was just that obvious, and so did most everybody I know who doesn't come on here. LOL So, it's all the writers fault for teasing us, unintentional or not.

[ShipperWriter]

Hey, good morning! On my iPod, getting ready to leave for the day.

Speaking of teasing the fans, after BAMSR aired, JM hinted it was possible that RepliKeller was lying because we saw Elizabeth on the bridge of that ship. And yet, things got so frakked up that Torri didn't come back. Teasing the viewers like that is just cruel.

I agree with the idea of having Elizabeth stay in Atlantis, going off world when needed.

Oh look. More plot bunnies.

Have a great day, everybody!

[Southern Red]

Hey, good morning! On my iPod, getting ready to leave for the day.

Speaking of teasing the fans, after BAMSR aired, JM hinted it was possible that RepliKeller was lying because we saw Elizabeth on the bridge of that ship. And yet, things got so frakked up that Torri didn't come back. Teasing the viewers like that is just cruel.

I agree with the idea of having Elizabeth stay in Atlantis, going off world when needed.

Oh look. More plot bunnies.

Have a great day, everybody!

I remember that, and he also said whether she's alive or not depends on who you talk to. It seems the same was true of which ship would sail. They sure had a lot of disagreement in the writers' room. No wonder the last few seasons were such a mess.

[Eri13]

Ooh, send him over to my house. He sounds like just what I need.

*flails* You can indeed do that part we discussed better than any fic ever has and it will be 10 times better than that thing we discussed earlier that makes us run for the puke bucket.

I'm torn on this. I'd like to see both, but if I had to choose I'd go for the near death experience. I think the show needed a good shake up and something different for Elizabeth to do. My ultimate choice would be for her to have to step down because of the nanites. Woolsey takes over and she becomes a sort of Daniel Jackson character, doing translations and negotiations and going on missions with John's team. She's not his boss, so nothing could stand in the way of the ship. Then they veeeerrrryyy gradually start to grow closer.

Speaking for myself, personally I think I would have preferred the John loses Elizabeth and tries to find her route. That's just me, though. I've mentioned this a couple times now, but it's Probably because I think some of my favorite stories growing up have involved a cast of characters suddenly dealing with an expected void in their ranks.

And over the years I've thought that some the most powerful twists have involved establishing a status quo and then shattering it. But only if done properly.

The problem was that in SGA's case, while there was some good stuff that came from it, there was no real payoff. That kind of proves how wrong it can go with without doing everything correctly.

Although I suppose that's because the writers and myself as a fan were obviously on different pages. They were improving the show by getting rid of Weir, rather than writing story about her being gone.

If they had gone that route, it would have removed all the reasons to criticize her as just staying in Atlantis and wringing her hands. Obviously, these writers weren't clever enough to come up with such a solution.



I like this idea and never really wanted her as a permanent part of John's team. There would, as you indicated, be a much better opportunity for drama with having her rotate teams as needed. I can see John sending way too many Marines along and Lorne suffering.

Shep: I'm sending a couple extra Marines with your team, Major.
Lorne: More Marines, Sir, we already have four.
Shep: And I told them not to leave Elizabeth's side.
Lorne: I don't think there's room in the jumper.
Shep: Make room, Major. That's an order.
Lorne: Yes Sir. I know how you worry about her, Sir.
Shep: Major. *looks threatening*
Lorne: About us, I know you worry about us all, Sir.
Shep: And don't you forget it, Major.



This would have worked also, as long as they didn't go a whole season with no Elizabeth. Maybe a couple of eps while they find false leads and get progressively more frustrated and John isn't sleeping and Rodney is cranky and Teyla and Ronon don't know what to do with them and then finally, when hope is almost lost, they find her. Whew! And John realizes life is too short and he won't survive losing her again. But of course, he's not sure how she feels. So they can drag that out for the rest of the season but at least we know he cares about her until he finally lets her know.

The sentence in bold says it all. There was never any payoff. That's why there were so many shippers with opposing views. They never gave the casual viewer a clear look at any ship that they knew would work out in the end. Look at shows like Castle and Bones. You knew, no matter what they did or who they hooked them up with temporarily, that those couples would end up together. It was obvious. I thought at first that Sparky was just that obvious, and so did most everybody I know who doesn't come on here. LOL So, it's all the writers fault for teasing us, unintentional or not.

I think around the time of the news that Elizabeth was going to be written out but would appear in S4, there were a lot of different ideas as to how that could happen.

While it still burns me a little in losing Elizabeth, I always thought that the 'lose her, find her' scenario would have been great (because, similar to the Teyla arc that took the same twist, they'd be thinking about her even when the episode didn't focus on her). But I think it would have been absolutely fantastic to see Elizabeth 'go rogue'--as in, having her be influenced by her nanites and become a temporary villain. Torri would have relished that chance, I think (as she did in TLG) and it would have been such a seriously cool twist, to have this rational, stoic character who'd been the rock of support for the expedition for so long all of a sudden be it's (almost greatest) threat. We're talking the Kolya-style storylines, or Michael, on steroids. Could you imagine the John angst? How Ronon or Rodney would handle it?

Of course, I'd want it to be the type of story that resolved with her being well again, which wouldn't have happened the way the situation played out, but I think if they'd preplanned and considered this an arc for S4, it would have been a great way to shake up the Elizabeth character without losing her. And when they finally managed to save her (which would have been her probably electing to overcome her own nanites) the fallout from what happened would have been fantastic. Could you imagine Elizabeth displaced because SGC/IOA didn't trust her, and having to deal with Woolsey and not knowing what to do since power's been stripped from her? Trying to be the diplomat and being lost? It would have been all so delicious, and such a challenge for Torri. *sigh sigh*

[Brie]

I really like all of the theories and I think we can all agree on how much more the writers could have done on so many levels than what they did.


I have to add that I also think that it would have been great to see her do more of what she was originally hired by the SGC to do which was to handle tough negotiations but we didn’t see her do anywhere near enough of that. It was also obvious that Shep’s team were better at making enemies than friends and most of the friends they did make was when it all originally came back to Elizabeth being the one who handled the final negotiations, even if there were times when things didn’t go so well i.e ‘Condemned’ and ‘Progeny’ (though it’s obvious the at it was because she was supposed to get infected) she still handled what came to her in an amazing way like with the Magistrate and the replicators.

Daniel Jackson said this about her in ‘Lost City’:

“I've heard of her. She's an expert in international politics. She mediates some high level negotiations for the UN. I actually referenced some of her work when I drafted the first treaty for the Tokra.”

[Brie]

I think around the time of the news that Elizabeth was going to be written out but would appear in S4, there were a lot of different ideas as to how that could happen.

While it still burns me a little in losing Elizabeth, I always thought that the 'lose her, find her' scenario would have been great (because, similar to the Teyla arc that took the same twist, they'd be thinking about her even when the episode didn't focus on her). But I think it would have been absolutely fantastic to see Elizabeth 'go rogue'--as in, having her be influenced by her nanites and become a temporary villain. Torri would have relished that chance, I think (as she did in TLG) and it would have been such a seriously cool twist, to have this rational, stoic character who'd been the rock of support for the expedition for so long all of a sudden be it's (almost greatest) threat. We're talking the Kolya-style storylines, or Michael, on steroids. Could you imagine the John angst? How Ronon or Rodney would handle it?

Of course, I'd want it to be the type of story that resolved with her being well again, which wouldn't have happened the way the situation played out, but I think if they'd preplanned and considered this an arc for S4, it would have been a great way to shake up the Elizabeth character without losing her. And when they finally managed to save her (which would have been her probably electing to overcome her own nanites) the fallout from what happened would have been fantastic. Could you imagine Elizabeth displaced because SGC/IOA didn't trust her, and having to deal with Woolsey and not knowing what to do since power's been stripped from her? Trying to be the diplomat and being lost? It would have been all so delicious, and such a challenge for Torri. *sigh sigh*

Now this I like, I’ve always been fascinated with the “bad” Elizabeth story arc that we possibly got the hint of in the end scene in “BAMSR” (It did turn out that it wasn’t anything bad but at the time the episode came out it was what it looked like) and if the writers wanted to go with the angst rout on season 4-5 (it did look like they did) then this would have been such a great story arc.

[Southern Red]

Now this I like, I’ve always been fascinated with the “bad” Elizabeth story arc that we possibly got the hint of in the end scene in “BAMSR” (It did turn out that it wasn’t anything bad but at the time the episode came out it was what it looked like) and if the writers wanted to go with the angst rout on season 4-5 (it did look like they did) then this would have been such a great story arc.

As opposed to their original plans for S4 which involved Rodney and Katie Brown having a baby and Teyla's people missing all season or something. I guess we should be thankful for small favors.

[Probie]

I think around the time of the news that Elizabeth was going to be written out but would appear in S4, there were a lot of different ideas as to how that could happen.

While it still burns me a little in losing Elizabeth, I always thought that the 'lose her, find her' scenario would have been great (because, similar to the Teyla arc that took the same twist, they'd be thinking about her even when the episode didn't focus on her). But I think it would have been absolutely fantastic to see Elizabeth 'go rogue'--as in, having her be influenced by her nanites and become a temporary villain. Torri would have relished that chance, I think (as she did in TLG) and it would have been such a seriously cool twist, to have this rational, stoic character who'd been the rock of support for the expedition for so long all of a sudden be it's (almost greatest) threat. We're talking the Kolya-style storylines, or Michael, on steroids. Could you imagine the John angst? How Ronon or Rodney would handle it?

Of course, I'd want it to be the type of story that resolved with her being well again, which wouldn't have happened the way the situation played out, but I think if they'd preplanned and considered this an arc for S4, it would have been a great way to shake up the Elizabeth character without losing her. And when they finally managed to save her (which would have been her probably electing to overcome her own nanites) the fallout from what happened would have been fantastic. Could you imagine Elizabeth displaced because SGC/IOA didn't trust her, and having to deal with Woolsey and not knowing what to do since power's been stripped from her? Trying to be the diplomat and being lost? It would have been all so delicious, and such a challenge for Torri. *sigh sigh*

I like this idea. It would have been interesting to see that side of Weir.
Do you know some fanfics where Weir is "the bad girl"?

I really like all of the theories and I think we can all agree on how much more the writers could have done on so many levels than what they did.


I have to add that I also think that it would have been great to see her do more of what she was originally hired by the SGC to do which was to handle tough negotiations but we didn’t see her do anywhere near enough of that. It was also obvious that Shep’s team were better at making enemies than friends and most of the friends they did make was when it all originally came back to Elizabeth being the one who handled the final negotiations, even if there were times when things didn’t go so well i.e ‘Condemned’ and ‘Progeny’ (though it’s obvious the at it was because she was supposed to get infected) she still handled what came to her in an amazing way like with the Magistrate and the replicators.

Daniel Jackson said this about her in ‘Lost City’:

“I've heard of her. She's an expert in international politics. She mediates some high level negotiations for the UN. I actually referenced some of her work when I drafted the first treaty for the Tokra.”

I agree. Once again, this shows how the authors have wasted several tracks/ideas for her character.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday! And WOW, deep discussion FTW!

To this day, the thing that pisses me off most about the "Weir and the Replicators" storyline in S4-5 is all the wasted opportunities. On paper, the idea had so many fascinating aspects to explore while shaking up the status quo in such a way that would give Elizabeth and the rest of the characters new chances to grow. Taking Elizabeth out of command on Atlantis, having her compromised by the nanites (including the possibility of her temporarily going rogue/evil, which would've been awesome to see), the rest of the team going in search of her in parallel to all those times in the past when they were in trouble and Elizabeth never gave up on them, culminating in Elizabeth finally being found and brought home to Atlantis, certainly a changed woman, yet still the Elizabeth we've all come to know and love at her core... It could have been the kind of exciting, action-packed, thought-provoking story that BSG often was praised for and is obvious in retrospect that TPTW tried and spectacularly failed to accomplish with SGU. It could have been AMAZING.

*sighs*

Oh well. That's what we've got Atlantis Rising for. To show 'em all how it's REALLY done.

As opposed to their original plans for S4 which involved Rodney and Katie Brown having a baby and Teyla's people missing all season or something. I guess we should be thankful for small favors.

*snorts*

[Lythisrose]

Not sure if it's been posted here but there's a Torri/Joe photo op at Dragon Con:
http://www.froggysphotos.com/convent...goncon2012.php