Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Read it, loved it and SQUEEEE'd at one certain point and ROFL'd my a$$ off at another point!!!
And hey, if loving Joe is a crime, lock me up right now!!

I'll volunteer to cook in the prison kitchen so the food is still good.

At Shore Leave, Torri told us that she would have loved to play 'evil-Weir' and even told tptb that. But they never did anything with it

*snorts* Typical for TPTW. Waste every opportunity given and then claim that the situation is unworkable. *headdesk*

[gateraid]

JM wrote in his blog that there was a scene cut from Remnants when Kolya is taunting John. Essentially he tells John that he lays awake nights agonizing over not being able to save Elizabeth. There's also something about blaming himself for his mother's death. Both cut.



That's the best one yet. Sparky is everywhere.



I never looked at it that way but you're right. I don't remember any time when he and Carter or Woolsey actually talked over a decision. They issued orders and John obeyed. And sometimes the look on his face told us he wasn't happy. I wonder if we could argue that he was OOC in S4-5 when he just rolled over and obeyed orders. The only time he got feisty was in S&R and that goes to his need not to lose any more team members/family. Just like he told Keller when he grabbed her arm and said I have had a chance to rescue a team mate before, and it slipped through my hands. I am not letting that happen again. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the missing scene in Remnants when Kolya talks about Elizabeth he tells John that he let her "slip through his hands". A bit of writer continuity or too much credit to them?

It's hard to say whether he and Elizabeth had a collaborative leadership style because she valued his input in terms of military matters, leadership experience, or whatever, or because it was simply Elizabeth's style to be inclusive, or just that two heads are better than one. It was probably by accident more than design.

With Carter, I harken back to Redemption(???), the s6 SG-1 season opener. McKay was saying that she was insane, and she responded with "it's my job to present the options, not to decide which one to take" or something to that effect. That was her style on Atlantis, just that she was at the top of the tree this time.

As for Woolsey, it always seemed like he got pushed into a decision (by virtue of the plot) rather than reaching that conclusion on his own.

John told Elizabeth in The Intruder that nobody in the Air Force thought he'd ever get past Captain. I think he believed that himself for a time and probably was just not even trying to live beyond their expectations. But the Atlantis mission gave him a purpose again. I think that may have been part of what he wanted to say in 38 Minutes. Damn you, Ford for interrupting. And this is yet again more proof that John was the happiest he had probably ever been for the first 3 years. Then he went to his dark place. But, you know what, he never lost his need to save everyone and never gave up on the mission because he wanted Elizabeth to be proud of him.

Thank you for this. I've always been uncomfortable with using ship as an explanation (whichever pairing) for what he was going to say in 38 Minutes, because it was WAY too early for a profound deathbed confession. This is perfectly logical, I wish I'd thought of it at the time.

In retrospect, the 'nobody thought I'd make it past Captain' line is quite interesting. Although it was quite flippant in delivery, he was already a Major when the mission started. Presumably they wouldn't have promoted him after the Afghanistan incident, so what made people think that (in his mind, at least)?

It's alright...we weren't expected to win that one so I'm not disappointed.

Be prepared to hug me in two weeks, though, if we don't pull it out against Georgia Tech. Then we won't be bowl eligible for the first time in YEARS. *sniffle*





I agree, and I think the contrast in his personality in Seasons 4 and 5 also emphasizes that point. He couldn't have felt as different as he did if there hadn't been something to compare it to in the first place. Whatever your reason, most people agree that John in S4-5 is definitely darker and less 'happy'. For my part, I think it's because the family shifted--first Carson, and then the larger impact of losing Elizabeth.

The whole shake-up of the leadership tree was very poorly done. They didn't feel they had more story to tell with Weir? Well, they did a terrible job of 'telling story' with her replacements. They didn't do half of what Elizabeth did, nor did they have the personality or relationships she did. Maybe they were trying to go away from a 'head of base' as a central figure, and yet because Atlantis was structured the way it was, you couldn't turn it into SG-1 and have the entire story revolve around just off-world teams by just killing off the leader. Because the main crux of the story was how Atlantis dealt with people in the Pegasus, not just SGA-1. The leader had to be there. Yet they never did the show overhaul to make it so they weren't.

All that ended up happening, then, was that the leaders ended up looking weak and absent. I still kinda giggle in GITM when people say that Richard finally started acting like a leader because he was bold in his decision, and I'm thinking--Elizabeth started out that way in the pilot and never gave up acting like a leader until she was forcibly removed...

I don't think they shook up the leadership tree in s4/5 per se, it seemed they divided it by three. They cut it back to one person dictating stuff, but that ended up by being less effective than two people working together. IMO of course.

Fanfic writers have certainly proven the 'no more stories to tell with Weir' argument wrong a hundred times over. Or more. I think I've lost count of how many great fics there are out there where we see Weir using those mad diplomatic skillz Daniel Jackson was gushing about in 'Lost City,' and just overall being a vitally important contributor to Atlantis and the Pegasus Galaxy.

To be honest, I think Weir being mad-diplomat would've gotten old pretty quick. That's not to say I think it shouldn't have happened, that aspect of her character was woefully underused. And obviously, she would've had more of a role to play in Atlantis based eps. But eps like Hide & Seek (odd, you might think, but she was the one who figured out that Rodney was being a scaredy-cat about his personal shield), ToR, TE/TS, CG put the focus on her specifically rather than 'the leader', so why not a bit more of that?

Exactly. If it was supposed to be just about 'the team,' then they should've named it Stargate Team Sheppard, or Stargate McKay. But it's Stargate Atlantis. There's more to Atlantis than one off-world team.

Considerably more. But it seems they decided that they'd just moved the SGC to a new location and that was the way it was going to play out

Read it, loved it and SQUEEEE'd at one certain point and ROFL'd my a$$ off at another point!!!
And hey, if loving Joe is a crime, lock me up right now!!


At Shore Leave, Torri told us that she would have loved to play 'evil-Weir' and even told tptb that. But they never did anything with it

Really? I could roll out some questions on certain producer's parentage, but, in the words of a very wise lemming:

Anti's Rule
Anti's Rock
Anyone else can
Eat my Sock!

[Southern Red]

It's hard to say whether he and Elizabeth had a collaborative leadership style because she valued his input in terms of military matters, leadership experience, or whatever, or because it was simply Elizabeth's style to be inclusive, or just that two heads are better than one. It was probably by accident more than design.

Also, from day one, John sometimes argued with Elizabeth when he didn't like her decisions. She gave as good as she got but maybe realized that he was sometimes right. Then after awhile, she started consulting him from the beginning to alleviate some of the dissent. Smart leadership move on her part and it led to a working partnership rather than a dictatorship.

With Carter, I harken back to Redemption(???), the s6 SG-1 season opener. McKay was saying that she was insane, and she responded with "it's my job to present the options, not to decide which one to take" or something to that effect. That was her style on Atlantis, just that she was at the top of the tree this time.

As for Woolsey, it always seemed like he got pushed into a decision (by virtue of the plot) rather than reaching that conclusion on his own.

And both of them were the odd man out in Atlantis. Having to follow a popular leader like Elizabeth must have been tough. Plus Carter was military and that made it even harder when dealing with the scientists. I wish they had let her be scientist Carter more. Woolsey had the added disadvantage of already being resented by the expedition so it was even harder for him. I think they worked out his differences way too quickly. I would like to have seen John and the others be a bit more antagonistic to him. Especially John. And I always hated the way they greeted Carter with fruit and flowers also.

Thank you for this. I've always been uncomfortable with using ship as an explanation (whichever pairing) for what he was going to say in 38 Minutes, because it was WAY too early for a profound deathbed confession. This is perfectly logical, I wish I'd thought of it at the time.

You're welcome. If you go and read the ep thread for 38 Min you will see that a lot of the posters who went right to ship were not Sparky shippers per se. We were mixed in our reaction and many of us said it was too soon. But the point was that he wanted to thank her for believing in him and making him a part of something important. It was Elizabeth he wanted to address his remarks to when he could have just made a general statement to everyone. And he used that special tone of voice that made it nearly impossible not to see ship.

In retrospect, the 'nobody thought I'd make it past Captain' line is quite interesting. Although it was quite flippant in delivery, he was already a Major when the mission started. Presumably they wouldn't have promoted him after the Afghanistan incident, so what made people think that (in his mind, at least)?

It would be interesting to speculate here on how he did manage to make major before the incident. Maybe he had a commanding officer who believed in him. And maybe that person was one of the people he was trying to rescue. Plot bunny, anyone?

To be honest, I think Weir being mad-diplomat would've gotten old pretty quick. That's not to say I think it shouldn't have happened, that aspect of her character was woefully underused. And obviously, she would've had more of a role to play in Atlantis based eps. But eps like Hide & Seek (odd, you might think, but she was the one who figured out that Rodney was being a scaredy-cat about his personal shield), ToR, TE/TS, CG put the focus on her specifically rather than 'the leader', so why not a bit more of that?

I can't remember the episode, The Return II maybe, when Elizabeth had a great idea and John made sure everybody understood that. Wonderful moment. She was always able to very quickly assess the situation and understand what they were talking about. Psychobabble aside.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

It's hard to say whether he and Elizabeth had a collaborative leadership style because she valued his input in terms of military matters, leadership experience, or whatever, or because it was simply Elizabeth's style to be inclusive, or just that two heads are better than one. It was probably by accident more than design.

Or simply accident. It was originally intended that Sheppard and Weir not see eye to eye as much as they ended up doing.

Thank you for this. I've always been uncomfortable with using ship as an explanation (whichever pairing) for what he was going to say in 38 Minutes, because it was WAY too early for a profound deathbed confession. This is perfectly logical, I wish I'd thought of it at the time.

In retrospect, the 'nobody thought I'd make it past Captain' line is quite interesting. Although it was quite flippant in delivery, he was already a Major when the mission started. Presumably they wouldn't have promoted him after the Afghanistan incident, so what made people think that (in his mind, at least)?

I have to agree with that. 38 Minutes certainly was too early for anyone to start realistically thinking about ship between Sheppard and Weir... especially when you stop to consider that Weir was still technically with Simon at the time.

To be honest, I think Weir being mad-diplomat would've gotten old pretty quick. That's not to say I think it shouldn't have happened, that aspect of her character was woefully underused. And obviously, she would've had more of a role to play in Atlantis based eps. But eps like Hide & Seek (odd, you might think, but she was the one who figured out that Rodney was being a scaredy-cat about his personal shield), ToR, TE/TS, CG put the focus on her specifically rather than 'the leader', so why not a bit more of that?

Certainly we should've seen more than that. There's also the instances we've seen of her using her other rarely-used skill, that of a translator/decoder of unknown languages. The Gift, Epiphany, and Tao of Rodney. Even those little moments keep her in the spotlight and show her as an important contributor to the expedition beyond her leadership role.

Considerably more. But it seems they decided that they'd just moved the SGC to a new location and that was the way it was going to play out

Much to the detriment of the show.

And both of them were the odd man out in Atlantis. Having to follow a popular leader like Elizabeth must have been tough. Plus Carter was military and that made it even harder when dealing with the scientists. I wish they had let her be scientist Carter more. Woolsey had the added disadvantage of already being resented by the expedition so it was even harder for him. I think they worked out his differences way too quickly. I would like to have seen John and the others be a bit more antagonistic to him. Especially John. And I always hated the way they greeted Carter with fruit and flowers also.

Yes, they allowed Carter and Woolsey to be accepted into the fold far too quickly. Contrast that with how long it took for Caldwell to become one of Atlantis's own, for example.

It would be interesting to speculate here on how he did manage to make major before the incident. Maybe he had a commanding officer who believed in him. And maybe that person was one of the people he was trying to rescue. Plot bunny, anyone?

Definitely sounds like a plot bunny to me.

I can't remember the episode, The Return II maybe, when Elizabeth had a great idea and John made sure everybody understood that. Wonderful moment. She was always able to very quickly assess the situation and understand what they were talking about. Psychobabble aside.

Yep, it was The Return Part 2; Elizabeth was the one who came up with the idea to use Niam.

[gateraid]

Also, from day one, John sometimes argued with Elizabeth when he didn't like her decisions. She gave as good as she got but maybe realized that he was sometimes right. Then after awhile, she started consulting him from the beginning to alleviate some of the dissent. Smart leadership move on her part and it led to a working partnership rather than a dictatorship.

All true. I suppose that was part of her 'work from within' strategy.

And both of them were the odd man out in Atlantis. Having to follow a popular leader like Elizabeth must have been tough. Plus Carter was military and that made it even harder when dealing with the scientists. I wish they had let her be scientist Carter more. Woolsey had the added disadvantage of already being resented by the expedition so it was even harder for him. I think they worked out his differences way too quickly. I would like to have seen John and the others be a bit more antagonistic to him. Especially John. And I always hated the way they greeted Carter with fruit and flowers also.

Both of the things you've mentioned deserved more attention. But these writers don't like to focus on either character moments or dissent too much, so they didn't happen, in much the same way that Elizabeth, Ford, Carson & Kate's deaths were barely spoken about, if at all.

You're welcome. If you go and read the ep thread for 38 Min you will see that a lot of the posters who went right to ship were not Sparky shippers per se. We were mixed in our reaction and many of us said it was too soon. But the point was that he wanted to thank her for believing in him and making him a part of something important. It was Elizabeth he wanted to address his remarks to when he could have just made a general statement to everyone. And he used that special tone of voice that made it nearly impossible not to see ship.

And now I wish he had said it, either at the end or in the jumper. It's a pity 38 Minutes was at the start of the season, he might've said it later on. Although it'd frak with the coninuity, given that the whole purpose of the ep was to discover the bug

It would be interesting to speculate here on how he did manage to make major before the incident. Maybe he had a commanding officer who believed in him. And maybe that person was one of the people he was trying to rescue. Plot bunny, anyone?

Presumably he was a good enough officer to warrant promotion before the black mark. And you'd think, timing wise, the Afghanistan incident would've had to occur fairly soon after his promotion in order for him to be sent to Antarctica in time to meet up with the expedition

I can't remember the episode, The Return II maybe, when Elizabeth had a great idea and John made sure everybody understood that. Wonderful moment. She was always able to very quickly assess the situation and understand what they were talking about. Psychobabble aside.

Right you are, it was indeed The Return II

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!



Or simply accident. It was originally intended that Sheppard and Weir not see eye to eye as much as they ended up doing.

Again, as with the Carter/Woolsey dissent, this was a missed opportunity. TS/TE could've been the point when they started to agree more, an icebreaker as it were.

I have to agree with that. 38 Minutes certainly was too early for anyone to start realistically thinking about ship between Sheppard and Weir... especially when you stop to consider that Weir was still technically with Simon at the time.

I'd actually forgotten about Simon. Although I think that was the idea, given that Weir was shocked that fake!Rodney knew about him in Home

Certainly we should've seen more than that. There's also the instances we've seen of her using her other rarely-used skill, that of a translator/decoder of unknown languages. The Gift, Epiphany, and Tao of Rodney. Even those little moments keep her in the spotlight and show her as an important contributor to the expedition beyond her leadership role.

All of the eps you've mentioned show her not just in the role of translator, but actually figuring stuff out plotwise. And ToR had, IMO, one of the best character moments (Shrine notwithstanding) in the show between her & Rodney, in the roles of friend and friend.

Yes, they allowed Carter and Woolsey to be accepted into the fold far too quickly. Contrast that with how long it took for Caldwell to become one of Atlantis's own, for example.

I suppose part of that was that he was only a supporting character, and perhaps they wouldn't have kept it going for so long if he were a regular part of the cast? And they'd made it clear from the get go that he wanted Shep's job. After a while, it sorta became impractical for him too continue being 'the ass', especially when he was actually really good at his job. Or again, maybe it was just that they couldn't be bothered writing in the tension *shrugs*

[Southern Red]

Presumably he was a good enough officer to warrant promotion before the black mark. And you'd think, timing wise, the Afghanistan incident would've had to occur fairly soon after his promotion in order for him to be sent to Antarctica in time to meet up with the expedition

We really need to get John's timeline straight for SGARising. At some point John says he was in Antarctica for 11 months. Does anyone remember what ep that was in? You'd have to work backwards from there to figure out when he was in Afghanistan. Promotions in the USAF are pretty much automatic up to Major unless you screw up badly. Most of the guys I know who are Majors got the promotion in their early to mid 30's. Pilots in combat are frequently captains with the promotion coming after a few years unless they screw up badly. For John to be a Major, he must have done okay. If he was a good pilot and his antics didn't embarrass his superiors or he didn't blatantly disobey orders frequently, they might let him slide. Good pilots are badly needed and they are the rock stars in the military.

Does someone have a list of his ribbons and medals from the time we saw him in uniform? Keeping in mind also that wardrobe may just have grabbed some generic medals that they thought were appropriate for him. I doubt they put much thought into it.

[Scary Kitty]

Again, as with the Carter/Woolsey dissent, this was a missed opportunity. TS/TE could've been the point when they started to agree more, an icebreaker as it were.

Indeed.

I'd actually forgotten about Simon. Although I think that was the idea, given that Weir was shocked that fake!Rodney knew about him in Home

Very true.

All of the eps you've mentioned show her not just in the role of translator, but actually figuring stuff out plotwise. And ToR had, IMO, one of the best character moments (Shrine notwithstanding) in the show between her & Rodney, in the roles of friend and friend.

Absolutely! It's moments like that, and the messages to the families of the fallen in Letters From Pegasus, which have led me to view her as the 'heart' of Atlantis, as it were. I get the impression that she's tried to make the effort to get to know everyone on the expedition, so that they're not just names and faces to her, they're people. Her people.

I suppose part of that was that he was only a supporting character, and perhaps they wouldn't have kept it going for so long if he were a regular part of the cast? And they'd made it clear from the get go that he wanted Shep's job. After a while, it sorta became impractical for him too continue being 'the ass', especially when he was actually really good at his job. Or again, maybe it was just that they couldn't be bothered writing in the tension *shrugs*

I'm thinking the latter. But maybe I'm just being cynical.

We really need to get John's timeline straight for SGARising. At some point John says he was in Antarctica for 11 months. Does anyone remember what ep that was in? You'd have to work backwards from there to figure out when he was in Afghanistan. Promotions in the USAF are pretty much automatic up to Major unless you screw up badly. Most of the guys I know who are Majors got the promotion in their early to mid 30's. Pilots in combat are frequently captains with the promotion coming after a few years unless they screw up badly. For John to be a Major, he must have done okay. If he was a good pilot and his antics didn't embarrass his superiors or he didn't blatantly disobey orders frequently, they might let him slide. Good pilots are badly needed and they are the rock stars in the military.

Does someone have a list of his ribbons and medals from the time we saw him in uniform? Keeping in mind also that wardrobe may just have grabbed some generic medals that they thought were appropriate for him. I doubt they put much thought into it.

Sheppard gave the '11 months' figure in Home, when they were on mist!Earth.

I do have a list of Sheppard's medals as of Sunday... I've got to run right now, but I'll try to get that up in a couple of hours.

[Scary Kitty]

Okay, Sheppard's uniform medals! I seem to recall we had discussed this a few months ago, but it's always good to refresh our memories.

Got a couple of screencaps for you.

Spoiler:

First, a full shot (also note the appearance of the Air Force Commander's Insignia on Sheppard's right, just above his nametag):


And here's a closeup that I found at The Major forums (along with the full list of what they mean, which I'm putting below) a few years back that shows a little better detail:

So, what do they mean? Read from Sheppard's right to left, and from top row to bottom row (note the addition of bronze or silver oak leaves or stars on some ribbons; these signify additional times he has received the award: bronze for each additional award up to three, silver for four additional awards):

Top row:
Distinguished Flying Cross x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Meritorious Service Medal x3 (2 bronze oak leaves)

Second row:
Air Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
Air Force Commendation Medal x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Aerial Achievement Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
(note that the last two are not in the correct order of precedence; it should be the Aerial Achievement Medal first, then the Air Force Commendation Medal)

Third row:
Air Force Achievement Medal x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Combat Readiness Medal

Fourth row:
National Defense Service Medal x2 (1 bronze star)
Afghanistan Campaign Medal
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal
(note that if Sheppard has been awarded the Antarctica Service Medal, which I believe he should have (with a Wintered Over device), it should come between the National Defense Service Medal and the Afghanistan Campaign Medal)

Fifth row:
Air Force Overseas Short Tour
Longevity Service Award x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Air Force Training Ribbon

The Longevity Service Award also gives a major clue to Sheppard's service timeline: That award is given for every four years of active service completed. Sheppard's received it four times as of 'Sunday,' which means that at the time of that episode, he had been in the Air Force for at least 16 years and no longer than 19. Of course, that's assuming his medals were all up to date.

As to the Afghanistan question and where his 11 months in Antarctica fits in, that opens up a whole other can of worms. I've deduced that 'Rising' has to take place in the autumn of 2004, possibly around early October. I know, 'Rising' aired in July, but there's no way that Sheppard and O'Neill could be flying around in a helicopter on a day with the sun as high in the sky as we saw, in the middle of July. While that's summer for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, it's winter in the Southern Hemisphere, and as close to the South Pole as they were supposed to be, the area that Sheppard and O'Neill were flying in would be experiencing nearly 24 hours of night. No way they'd send up a heli in that. So my guess is that in order for Sheppard to have been in Antarctica for about 11 months prior to 'Rising,' he had been sent there around October or November of 2003.

Yeah, I've put some thought into this.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Funny thing about the 38 Minutes thing. I was one who noticed it in that episode and it was pretty much that whole question of what he meant to say that made me aware of the idea of sparky even if I didn't really actively support it until 3 seasons later. But what I thought was rather funny was that since we never got to hear what he actually wanted to say, one's imagination starts to make possible connections to something romantic (or something), but if he'd actually gotten to say anything like that I doubt very much I would have bought it. So if he had, I might have never cared for the two of them together. At the same time, the fact that he didn't was still what made me take notice. So it was a fien line to walk I guess. And I honestly Couldn't think of anything that probably would have made sense to me for years after the fact even when I gave it a little thought.

So I guess that works for me.

I always assumed that Weir had a collaborating leadership style with John. I don't remember if they explicitly stated that but I figured it was certainly the case. By then I would have already seen Season 1 of Battlestar, so perhaps I just assumed that they'd have adopted a similar arrangement to Adama and Roslyn but I would imagine the whole reason to have a civilian and military commander sent to the expedition would be for that purpose. Had he survived, I would guess Sumner would have had that role.

Regarding tension with Carter or Woolsey. I don't think it's in Sheppard should have given any problems to Carter. A - It seems unprofessional. B -I don't think it's in his nature to clash with new people just because they are new. Most of the other people he had some sort of conflict were because of specific moments where they butted heads. I didn't expect Carter to do so. It's not like it was Sam's fault that Elizabeth was captured. (well... not really )

By the time Woolsey rolled around he wasn't a replacement for Elizabeth, he was a replacement for Carter who was simply reassigned. And that probablty wasn't his call either. At least not entirely.

I can see maybe there could have been more times where he came into conflcit with John. But I never really had a problem with the fact that they didn't. I guess the writers were eager to have him integrated into the "family" they had over there, and since he was an unlikely member of the team to begin with, maybe they felt delaying that process even further might have been determinable to his character. We had to learn more about him in the first several episodes to make him more of a sympathetic fit for the show. Putting that off might have caused the fans to like him less or something. At least that was my attempt to have a random guess at their thought process.

There was a deleted scene in The Seed, that the team expressed their dissatisfaction with him, that I thought worked fairly well in getting tension across fora while.

But in either case, I don't think John would have expressed any resentment about Elizabeth being gone to either of them. Most of his anger would been directed towards himself.

[Southern Red]

Funny thing about the 38 Minutes thing. I was one who noticed it in that episode and it was pretty much that whole question of what he meant to say that made me aware of the idea of sparky even if I didn't really actively support it until 3 seasons later. But what I thought was rather funny was that since we never got to hear what he actually wanted to say, one's imagination starts to make possible connections to something romantic (or something), but if he'd actually gotten to say anything like that I doubt very much I would have bought it. So if he had, I might have never cared for the two of them together. At the same time, the fact that he didn't was still what made me take notice. So it was a fien line to walk I guess. And I honestly Couldn't think of anything that probably would have made sense to me for years after the fact even when I gave it a little thought.

So I guess that works for me.

I always assumed that Weir had a collaborating leadership style with John. I don't remember if they explicitly stated that but I figured it was certainly the case. By then I would have already seen Season 1 of Battlestar, so perhaps I just assumed that they'd have adopted a similar arrangement to Adama and Roslyn but I would imagine the whole reason to have a civilian and military commander sent to the expedition would be for that purpose. Had he survived, I would guess Sumner would have had that role.

Regarding tension with Carter or Woolsey. I don't think it's in Sheppard should have given any problems to Carter. A - It seems unprofessional. B -I don't think it's in his nature to clash with new people just because they are new. Most of the other people he had some sort of conflict were because of specific moments where they butted heads. I didn't expect Carter to do so. It's not like it was Sam's fault that Elizabeth was captured. (well... not really )

By the time Woolsey rolled around he wasn't a replacement for Elizabeth, he was a replacement for Carter who was simply reassigned. And that probablty wasn't his call either. At least not entirely.

I can see maybe there could have been more times where he came into conflcit with John. But I never really had a problem with the fact that they didn't. I guess the writers were eager to have him integrated into the "family" they had over there, and since he was an unlikely member of the team to begin with, maybe they felt delaying that process even further might have been determinable to his character. We had to learn more about him in the first several episodes to make him more of a sympathetic fit for the show. Putting that off might have caused the fans to like him less or something. At least that was my attempt to have a random guess at their thought process.

There was a deleted scene in The Seed, that the team expressed their dissatisfaction with him, that I thought worked fairly well in getting tension across fora while.

But in either case, I don't think John would have expressed any resentment about Elizabeth being gone to either of them. Most of his anger would been directed towards himself.

Very thoughtful ideas. They all make perfect sense but we'll never know how the thought processes of TPTB actually worked.

SK, thanks for the repost of the medal explanation. I made a stickie for reference. And yes, the Antarctica ribbon should be there. I think it was just an oversight. Canon is just too explicit on the subject of how long he was there.

[ShipperWriter]

We really need to get John's timeline straight for SGARising. At some point John says he was in Antarctica for 11 months. Does anyone remember what ep that was in? You'd have to work backwards from there to figure out when he was in Afghanistan. Promotions in the USAF are pretty much automatic up to Major unless you screw up badly. Most of the guys I know who are Majors got the promotion in their early to mid 30's. Pilots in combat are frequently captains with the promotion coming after a few years unless they screw up badly. For John to be a Major, he must have done okay. If he was a good pilot and his antics didn't embarrass his superiors or he didn't blatantly disobey orders frequently, they might let him slide. Good pilots are badly needed and they are the rock stars in the military.

Does someone have a list of his ribbons and medals from the time we saw him in uniform? Keeping in mind also that wardrobe may just have grabbed some generic medals that they thought were appropriate for him. I doubt they put much thought into it.

Indeed.



Very true.



Absolutely! It's moments like that, and the messages to the families of the fallen in Letters From Pegasus, which have led me to view her as the 'heart' of Atlantis, as it were. I get the impression that she's tried to make the effort to get to know everyone on the expedition, so that they're not just names and faces to her, they're people. Her people.



I'm thinking the latter. But maybe I'm just being cynical.



Sheppard gave the '11 months' figure in Home, when they were on mist!Earth.

I do have a list of Sheppard's medals as of Sunday... I've got to run right now, but I'll try to get that up in a couple of hours.

Okay, Sheppard's uniform medals! I seem to recall we had discussed this a few months ago, but it's always good to refresh our memories.

Got a couple of screencaps for you.

Spoiler:

First, a full shot (also note the appearance of the Air Force Commander's Insignia on Sheppard's right, just above his nametag):


And here's a closeup that I found at The Major forums (along with the full list of what they mean, which I'm putting below) a few years back that shows a little better detail:

So, what do they mean? Read from Sheppard's right to left, and from top row to bottom row (note the addition of bronze or silver oak leaves or stars on some ribbons; these signify additional times he has received the award: bronze for each additional award up to three, silver for four additional awards):

Top row:
Distinguished Flying Cross x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Meritorious Service Medal x3 (2 bronze oak leaves)

Second row:
Air Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
Air Force Commendation Medal x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Aerial Achievement Medal x5 (silver oak leaf)
(note that the last two are not in the correct order of precedence; it should be the Aerial Achievement Medal first, then the Air Force Commendation Medal)

Third row:
Air Force Achievement Medal x2 (1 bronze oak leaf)
Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Combat Readiness Medal

Fourth row:
National Defense Service Medal x2 (1 bronze star)
Afghanistan Campaign Medal
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal
(note that if Sheppard has been awarded the Antarctica Service Medal, which I believe he should have (with a Wintered Over device), it should come between the National Defense Service Medal and the Afghanistan Campaign Medal)

Fifth row:
Air Force Overseas Short Tour
Longevity Service Award x4 (3 bronze oak leaves)
Air Force Training Ribbon

The Longevity Service Award also gives a major clue to Sheppard's service timeline: That award is given for every four years of active service completed. Sheppard's received it four times as of 'Sunday,' which means that at the time of that episode, he had been in the Air Force for at least 16 years and no longer than 19. Of course, that's assuming his medals were all up to date.

As to the Afghanistan question and where his 11 months in Antarctica fits in, that opens up a whole other can of worms. I've deduced that 'Rising' has to take place in the autumn of 2004, possibly around early October. I know, 'Rising' aired in July, but there's no way that Sheppard and O'Neill could be flying around in a helicopter on a day with the sun as high in the sky as we saw, in the middle of July. While that's summer for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, it's winter in the Southern Hemisphere, and as close to the South Pole as they were supposed to be, the area that Sheppard and O'Neill were flying in would be experiencing nearly 24 hours of night. No way they'd send up a heli in that. So my guess is that in order for Sheppard to have been in Antarctica for about 11 months prior to 'Rising,' he had been sent there around October or November of 2003.

Yeah, I've put some thought into this.

(((SK)))

This is awesome! I'm gonna snurch some of your research for a story I'm developing ... This is all going to come in very handy!!!

Truckload of virtual green for you!!!

[Scary Kitty]

SK, thanks for the repost of the medal explanation. I made a stickie for reference. And yes, the Antarctica ribbon should be there. I think it was just an oversight. Canon is just too explicit on the subject of how long he was there.

*thumbs-up*

Exactly. If he'd given a more vague figure, like, 'I was there for a few months,' or something like that, it's much easier to fudge the numbers. But he gave a very specific number, so it's not something that can be casually dismissed. He was there for 11 months, which means he was there more than long enough to not only earn the ASM, but also a Wintered Over device. The costume department definitely goofed on that one.

(((SK)))

This is awesome! I'm gonna snurch some of your research for a story I'm developing ... This is all going to come in very handy!!!

Truckload of virtual green for you!!!

*salutes* Hey, I try.

[Scary Kitty]

Regarding tension with Carter or Woolsey. I don't think it's in Sheppard should have given any problems to Carter. A - It seems unprofessional. B -I don't think it's in his nature to clash with new people just because they are new. Most of the other people he had some sort of conflict were because of specific moments where they butted heads. I didn't expect Carter to do so. It's not like it was Sam's fault that Elizabeth was captured. (well... not really )

By the time Woolsey rolled around he wasn't a replacement for Elizabeth, he was a replacement for Carter who was simply reassigned. And that probablty wasn't his call either. At least not entirely.

I can see maybe there could have been more times where he came into conflcit with John. But I never really had a problem with the fact that they didn't. I guess the writers were eager to have him integrated into the "family" they had over there, and since he was an unlikely member of the team to begin with, maybe they felt delaying that process even further might have been determinable to his character. We had to learn more about him in the first several episodes to make him more of a sympathetic fit for the show. Putting that off might have caused the fans to like him less or something. At least that was my attempt to have a random guess at their thought process.

There was a deleted scene in The Seed, that the team expressed their dissatisfaction with him, that I thought worked fairly well in getting tension across fora while.

But in either case, I don't think John would have expressed any resentment about Elizabeth being gone to either of them. Most of his anger would been directed towards himself.

Well, I don't think John would've ever expressed anger or resentment toward either Carter or Woolsey. As you said, it would be unprofessional of him. What I do think should've been more evident in both cases is a sense of discomfort and uncertainty in all the characters regarding the changes in command. Is the newcomer going to be more of an SGC/IOA insider, building on the 'us versus them' theme we saw with episodes like Allies/No Man's Land/Misbegotten, The Return, First Strike, The Seer, and Remnants? How are they going to fit in, or are they even going to try? That sort of thing.

[Southern Red]

Well, I don't think John would've ever expressed anger or resentment toward either Carter or Woolsey. As you said, it would be unprofessional of him. What I do think should've been more evident in both cases is a sense of discomfort and uncertainty in all the characters regarding the changes in command. Is the newcomer going to be more of an SGC/IOA insider, building on the 'us versus them' theme we saw with episodes like Allies/No Man's Land/Misbegotten, The Return, First Strike, The Seer, and Remnants? How are they going to fit in, or are they even going to try? That sort of thing.

ITA with that. And also it was a bit of an insult to Elizabeth that someone else filled her shoes so easily. Ronon was really the only one who had any sort of a problem with either Carter or Woolsey. Rodney in particular should have been reluctant to accept Woolsey. Not to mention John. After Misbegotten and his reaction to him he should have been a bit standoffish for a long time. But it's all part of the let's forget Weir ever existed theme. Thanks to JF though, it wasn't very successful. And still to this day even though he seems to have forgotten half the things that happened in the show Joe still remembers Torri fondly.

[Scary Kitty]

ITA with that. And also it was a bit of an insult to Elizabeth that someone else filled her shoes so easily. Ronon was really the only one who had any sort of a problem with either Carter or Woolsey. Rodney in particular should have been reluctant to accept Woolsey. Not to mention John. After Misbegotten and his reaction to him he should have been a bit standoffish for a long time. But it's all part of the let's forget Weir ever existed theme. Thanks to JF though, it wasn't very successful. And still to this day even though he seems to have forgotten half the things that happened in the show Joe still remembers Torri fondly.

Word to that. JoeF had a better sense of consistency and continuity in terms of his character and the overall storyline than the producers and writers of the show. That's a pretty sad commentary of affairs behind the scenes.