Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I also think he was indeed happy during the first 3 seasons of Atlantis. I'm not sure we know exactly enough about his life before Atlantis to say definitively that she saved his life or that he'd end up as broken as he did in Vegas, but I do think it's safe to say she found him a better life. He flat out admits to Teyla that she, Elizabeth, Rodney, Ronon etc are his family. So presumably that would have not had that same connection had he just remained on Earth.

After Elizabeth was lost, I think part of the reason was that that type of loss was burden that was basically the very sort of thing that he'd need Elizabeth for. (Well I guess maybe that and the bizarre fact that Kate apparently had no replacement ) He was never as close to Carter or Woolsey as he was her. And given that both of them had a much smaller role than Elizabeth, I'm guessing that was by design? Because he actually felt like he was more alone without her and that he had to share more of the burden of command without her around.

[Southern Red]

I also think he was indeed happy during the first 3 seasons of Atlantis. I'm not sure we know exactly enough about his life before Atlantis to say definitively that she saved his life or that he'd end up as broken as he did in Vegas, but I do think it's safe to say she found him a better life. He flat out admits to Teyla that she, Elizabeth, Rodney, Ronon etc are his family. So presumably that would have not had that same connection had he just remained on Earth.

After Elizabeth was lost, I think part of the reason was that that type of loss was burden that was basically the very sort of thing that he'd need Elizabeth for. (Well I guess maybe that and the bizarre fact that Kate apparently had no replacement ) He was never as close to Carter or Woolsey as he was her. And given that both of them had a much smaller role than Elizabeth, I'm guessing that was by design? Because he actually felt like he was more alone without her and that he had to share more of the burden of command without her around.

Very well said. He couldn't be as close to Carter because of rank. I shudder when I read fics that have him calling her "Sam". He would just never never do that no matter how comfortable they got with each other. She was his commanding officer. Even on SG-1 after so many years, Sam never once called Jack by his first name. It's just not done. And I think he and Woolsey were beginning to form a male bonding sort of friendship. In time they would have been friends and on a first name basis but he would never have been as comfortable with him as with Elizabeth.

[Scary Kitty]

You just nailed it and I can't think of another thing to add. It must have killed him that he never got a chance to thank her for all she did.

And it's still killing him. Sure, that pain will ease in time, it always does, but it's going to leave a scar that even time won't ever fully heal.

I also think he was indeed happy during the first 3 seasons of Atlantis. I'm not sure we know exactly enough about his life before Atlantis to say definitively that she saved his life or that he'd end up as broken as he did in Vegas, but I do think it's safe to say she found him a better life. He flat out admits to Teyla that she, Elizabeth, Rodney, Ronon etc are his family. So presumably that would have not had that same connection had he just remained on Earth.

After Elizabeth was lost, I think part of the reason was that that type of loss was burden that was basically the very sort of thing that he'd need Elizabeth for. (Well I guess maybe that and the bizarre fact that Kate apparently had no replacement ) He was never as close to Carter or Woolsey as he was her. And given that both of them had a much smaller role than Elizabeth, I'm guessing that was by design? Because he actually felt like he was more alone without her and that he had to share more of the burden of command without her around.

That's an excellent point. As the old saying goes, 'pain shared is pain halved.' John and Elizabeth were able to share the burden of command as true equals. He could never have that equality with Carter, as she was a superior officer and rank and decorum had to be maintained, and as far as Woolsey goes, there's the past history with Woolsey causing trouble for Atlantis and Woolsey's tendency to professionalism to the point of standoffishness to contend with.

Very well said. He couldn't be as close to Carter because of rank. I shudder when I read fics that have him calling her "Sam". He would just never never do that no matter how comfortable they got with each other. She was his commanding officer. Even on SG-1 after so many years, Sam never once called Jack by his first name. It's just not done. And I think he and Woolsey were beginning to form a male bonding sort of friendship. In time they would have been friends and on a first name basis but he would never have been as comfortable with him as with Elizabeth.

This. For John to call Carter 'Sam' is a shocking breach of protocol, and it's just really sloppy and incompetent on the part of any writer who does it. Sure, John doesn't always do well with authority, but he's always held himself to the protocol of addressing superior officers by their rank. For some, like Sumner or Everett, it's a little more snide, but in the case of O'Neill or Carter (or Caldwell, once he gets de-Goa'uld-ed and really becomes one of Atlantis's own), he does it out of respect for them and their accomplishments.

[Falcon Horus]

Guess who's back? Back again... Tell some friends!

*holiday blues kick in*

Gosh, beautiful Hadrian's Wall - I miss you!

Also - rather random:

* as I was perusing the map with my sister yesterday, to see how far the sycamore tree from one of the Robin Hood films was to where we were at that point (too far but we did see a fox pass by - which we had never seen before, a life one in the wild that is), I saw that to the east of us was a place called Weir.

* as we were driving all the way down from up north to Heathrow, a car passed us by with JFH on his license-plate and my mind automatically went "Joe Flanigan H... ?!?".

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Sparky Vid

Spoiler:

I'm trying to find a sparky vid that was done over a year ago where the description was like as John Looked upon Rodney and Jennifer Keller having lunch he is reminded of Elizabeth.

anybody remember the vids name?

[Scary Kitty]

Guess who's back? Back again... Tell some friends!

*holiday blues kick in*

Gosh, beautiful Hadrian's Wall - I miss you!

Also - rather random:

* as I was perusing the map with my sister yesterday, to see how far the sycamore tree from one of the Robin Hood films was to where we were at that point (too far but we did see a fox pass by - which we had never seen before, a life one in the wild that is), I saw that to the east of us was a place called Weir.

* as we were driving all the way down from up north to Heathrow, a car passed us by with JFH on his license-plate and my mind automatically went "Joe Flanigan H... ?!?".

Hey, welcome back! Glad to hear you had a great time! *huggles*

LOL at the Sparky sightings; it's funny how you can stumble upon them in the most unexpected places!

Sparky Vid

Spoiler:

I'm trying to find a sparky vid that was done over a year ago where the description was like as John Looked upon Rodney and Jennifer Keller having lunch he is reminded of Elizabeth.

anybody remember the vids name?

Hmm, I don't remember a vid like that, sorry. But if you do find it again, let us know, it sounds like a good one!

[Southern Red]

Guess who's back? Back again... Tell some friends!

*holiday blues kick in*

Gosh, beautiful Hadrian's Wall - I miss you!

Also - rather random:

* as I was perusing the map with my sister yesterday, to see how far the sycamore tree from one of the Robin Hood films was to where we were at that point (too far but we did see a fox pass by - which we had never seen before, a life one in the wild that is), I saw that to the east of us was a place called Weir.

* as we were driving all the way down from up north to Heathrow, a car passed us by with JFH on his license-plate and my mind automatically went "Joe Flanigan H... ?!?".

You, like all of us, have it bad. My husband frequently eats lunch at a place called McKay's. It always makes me smile. Our brains are just wired to pick up on certain things.

[Pocus]

You, like all of us, have it bad. My husband frequently eats lunch at a place called McKay's. It always makes me smile. Our brains are just wired to pick up on certain things.

I play Treasure Isle on Facebook and they are getting ready to build Atlantis. I just got a "Nexus" to build on my island to travel to other maps. Looks A LOT like a Stargate.

[Scary Kitty]

You, like all of us, have it bad. My husband frequently eats lunch at a place called McKay's. It always makes me smile. Our brains are just wired to pick up on certain things.

Heh, funny you should mention that... on our road trip up the Northern California/Oregon/Washington coast back in September, we passed a market named McKay's in Gold Beach, Oregon. Apparently they're a small local chain.

I play Treasure Isle on Facebook and they are getting ready to build Atlantis. I just got a "Nexus" to build on my island to travel to other maps. Looks A LOT like a Stargate.

Hah! That sounds like fun!

[ShipperWriter]

I'm home!!! And it's after midnight and I hafta be up at 7:30.

I'll make this quick.

Or not.

You did that when you were bored? Hmm, maybe you should be bored more often, LOL!

Oh, I can't wait!

Unfortunately, they've blocked it.

Yeah, I went back and edited the post. Darn you, YT ... And it's because of the TaylorSwift song ...

Loved the sig ShipperWriter. And with all the plans for writing and whatnot looks like everybody is busy. Sparky FTW!

Thanks!!!

Watching Harmony again (I didn't put it on, it's rerunning on SyFy) and when he gives the whole leadership speech, I really think he got a lot of that from talking to Elizabeth.
I'm not saying that John isn't a good leader, because he is and his men respect him. But the thing about putting the needs of your people before yourself and that it's a lot of responsibility. I know John puts others before himself and I know he takes responsibility. But he also saw what leadership did to Elizabeth and how difficult some made it for her (IOA, SGC, Kavanaugh,...) And I think he wants to warn Harmony for that.
Not sure if I'm making any sense

*nods* Very good point, must rewatch eppy ...

Ooh, and before I forget! I'm gonna see RDA at Fedcon in May!!!! *bounces*
I honestly never thought he would come and I would ever get to see him. This is sooooooooooooooooo awesome

SWEEEEEET!!!

You are making perfect sense. I thought the same thing and that's one of the reasons I like Harmony so much. It's sort of a mirror of the scene with Carter in Reunion when he tells her he saw what the job did to Elizabeth. That scene right there tells me more about their relationship than any other bit of canon. I hate TPTB for once again telling us and not showing us. What you may ask do both these scenes tell us? Only that John knew more about Elizabeth than anyone else. Think about it. Would she have shown any sort of vulnerability in front of the others? Would they know that the job was sometimes a burden? John must have seen her in her most vulnerable moments and he knew that on a personal level she was deeply affected by some of her decisions and the things that had happened to their people.

Now that is exciting news. Here's hoping Joe goes again also. Imagine the two of them together.

Nail on head.

And ooh, they could juggle together. HAHA!!!

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday!

Heh, it sounds like the Sparky World Summer has continued into the autumn and winter!
*nods* And even when it wasn't scripted, Joe really sold it in his portrayal of Sheppard that he was deeply affected, I daresay haunted, by seeing what the burden of command did to Elizabeth, and after Elizabeth was lost, how that burden of command began to weigh so heavily on him. Sure, he wasn't the overall leader-- that was Carter or Woolsey-- but he never was able to share that burden with anyone but Elizabeth. The two of them truly understood that burden and how it affected each other, better than anyone else.

That is awesome!

*cracks up* That's definitely got the potential to be as funny as Joe and David Hewlett on stage together. Oh my. *giggles*

No, very true. And even though someone else comments on this later on, they had "joint" command. They relied on each other, but ultimately John deferred to Elizabeth to make the final decision on a lot of things. He was careful not to lose her trust, her friendship, her faith in him, but when he had to leave her behind and then 100% start answering to a military superior ... that's gotta be a rough transition ... IMO ...

Talking about John and his burden of command after losing Elizabeth reminded me of a few things.

First, in The Intruder John was so proud of his promotion and made a joke about the burden of command little knowing how real that burden would become in a couple of years.

Then after losing Elizabeth he seemed weighed down by all the responsibilities which didn't change much even with Carter and Woolsey around to be his new boss. Shouldn't having them there have lessened John's stress? Yet he seemed to get darker and sadder as time went on. We know from the scene in Remnants that was deleted that John was seriously burdened by not being able to save Elizabeth. Do you think this was the largest reason for his turn toward his dark side? Was that just the last straw on top of losing Ford and so many other people under his command?

And also, was there ever a time when John was relatively happy? Would you guys say that in S1-3 before everything went sideways John was content to be where he was and despite the demons that plagued his dreams concerning those he had lost that he was glad to go to work every day and was not in any way damaged psychologically? I've been thinking about this and I think there is proof in canon that he enjoyed most of his life on Atlantis.

Like here for example:

Spoiler:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-1x05-0907.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-1x15-0039.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-2x04_1976.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...-2x17-2703.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...rnred/coup.jpg

Okay, what's this about a missing scene??? Someone fill me in???

And I snurched a few of those pics for a new Sparky sig I'm making ... sometime in this lifetime ...

I believe it was. This train of thought draws me back to my personal canon belief that Sheppard has an unfulfilled debt of honor to Elizabeth. When John was first brought to Elizabeth's attention, he was stuck in a dead-end position in Antarctica, left to basically be passed over for promotion enough times that he would be forced to retire from the Air Force due to lack of advancement. In many respects, I think the AU of "Vegas" was meant to serve as a cautionary tale about what our John's life might have been like if he'd never gone to Atlantis. I wouldn't say that Elizabeth offering John a position on the Atlantis expedition saved his life (it's a little melodramatic, for one); perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave him the chance to save himself. I think he understands that, and being a man of honor and integrity who lives by the military's 'we don't leave our people behind' credo, I think John recognizes that he owes Elizabeth something of equal worth. He owes it to her to save her life, to give her the chance to save her own life. Except that he's never been able to do it. That failure has got to be weighing very heavily on him; anyone who ignores that simple truth doesn't understand John Sheppard at all.

Yeah, I think he was relatively happy on Atlantis for the first three years. He'd found a new purpose in his life; something he could do that very few others could. He'd found a new family, united by heart rather than by shared blood. And every time I think of that, I think of "Lilo and Stitch," and the Hawaiian concept of 'ohana,' or family, and that scene at the end of the movie where Stitch is telling the aliens that came to take him back about his new family: "This is my family. I found it, all on my own. Is little, and broken, but still good. Yeah, still good." And I want to cry, because damnit, John is Stitch.

Right on. On both counts. John=Stitch ... now that I think about it, Stitch had puppy eyes too ...

John in Stitches *droolz* Elizabeth taking care of him after a rough mission *double droolz*

runz to whump thread~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL!!!

Sparky Vid

Spoiler:

I'm trying to find a sparky vid that was done over a year ago where the description was like as John Looked upon Rodney and Jennifer Keller having lunch he is reminded of Elizabeth.

anybody remember the vids name?

Sounds like a partial McKeller vid too ... maybe ask over on McKeller thread, see if any of them know??? Off hand, can't think of it, but I swear I've seen it too ... I'm gonna look for it again ...

Hey, welcome back! Glad to hear you had a great time! *huggles*

LOL at the Sparky sightings; it's funny how you can stumble upon them in the most unexpected places!

You, like all of us, have it bad. My husband frequently eats lunch at a place called McKay's. It always makes me smile. Our brains are just wired to pick up on certain things.

I play Treasure Isle on Facebook and they are getting ready to build Atlantis. I just got a "Nexus" to build on my island to travel to other maps. Looks A LOT like a Stargate.

There are two streets in my area, a block down from each other. One is named "Victoria" -- the other is "Elizabeth" ... Torri's full name and Weir??? C'mon, what are the odds?!

[ShipperWriter]

Okay, another sig, sorry, inspired by the aptly named "Sparks Fly" title track from Taylor Swift's new CD. Seriously, there are Sparky references in every song!



'Kay, goin to sleep now ... or doin somethin else for a bit ...

Night!

[mandogater]

Yeah, I think he was relatively happy on Atlantis for the first three years. He'd found a new purpose in his life; something he could do that very few others could. He'd found a new family, united by heart rather than by shared blood. And every time I think of that, I think of "Lilo and Stitch," and the Hawaiian concept of 'ohana,' or family, and that scene at the end of the movie where Stitch is telling the aliens that came to take him back about his new family: "This is my family. I found it, all on my own. Is little, and broken, but still good. Yeah, still good." And I want to cry, because damnit, John is Stitch.

I agree, John was happiest in Seasons 1-3.
The bolded bit reminds me of a Mandalorian proverb. "Family is more than bloodlines."

[gateraid]

You are making perfect sense. I thought the same thing and that's one of the reasons I like Harmony so much. It's sort of a mirror of the scene with Carter in Reunion when he tells her he saw what the job did to Elizabeth. That scene right there tells me more about their relationship than any other bit of canon. I hate TPTB for once again telling us and not showing us. What you may ask do both these scenes tell us? Only that John knew more about Elizabeth than anyone else. Think about it. Would she have shown any sort of vulnerability in front of the others? Would they know that the job was sometimes a burden? John must have seen her in her most vulnerable moments and he knew that on a personal level she was deeply affected by some of her decisions and the things that had happened to their people.



Now that is exciting news. Here's hoping Joe goes again also. Imagine the two of them together.

That is an excellent point. As usual, I can't fault your logic (not that I'd want to in this case) Very well stated too.

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday!



Heh, it sounds like the Sparky World Summer has continued into the autumn and winter!



That totally makes sense. And I'm gonna repost SR's response because she really nailed it...



*nods* And even when it wasn't scripted, Joe really sold it in his portrayal of Sheppard that he was deeply affected, I daresay haunted, by seeing what the burden of command did to Elizabeth, and after Elizabeth was lost, how that burden of command began to weigh so heavily on him. Sure, he wasn't the overall leader-- that was Carter or Woolsey-- but he never was able to share that burden with anyone but Elizabeth. The two of them truly understood that burden and how it affected each other, better than anyone else.



That is awesome!



*cracks up* That's definitely got the potential to be as funny as Joe and David Hewlett on stage together. Oh my. *giggles*

I hate the co-leader description of these two, but it is apt at times. One only has to look at CDT, with the Genii. John never had that input or relationship with the other commanders. Their discussions/decisions there were truly collaborative. Obviously, it has to be a little different with Carter by virtue of the fact that she is his superior officer.

Talking about John and his burden of command after losing Elizabeth reminded me of a few things.

First, in The Intruder John was so proud of his promotion and made a joke about the burden of command little knowing how real that burden would become in a couple of years.

Then after losing Elizabeth he seemed weighed down by all the responsibilities which didn't change much even with Carter and Woolsey around to be his new boss. Shouldn't having them there have lessened John's stress? Yet he seemed to get darker and sadder as time went on. We know from the scene in Remnants that was deleted that John was seriously burdened by not being able to save Elizabeth. Do you think this was the largest reason for his turn toward his dark side? Was that just the last straw on top of losing Ford and so many other people under his command?

And also, was there ever a time when John was relatively happy? Would you guys say that in S1-3 before everything went sideways John was content to be where he was and despite the demons that plagued his dreams concerning those he had lost that he was glad to go to work every day and was not in any way damaged psychologically? I've been thinking about this and I think there is proof in canon that he enjoyed most of his life on Atlantis.

Like here for example:

Hand to God, I was really concerned about what was going to be under the cut. Phew.

I believe it was. This train of thought draws me back to my personal canon belief that Sheppard has an unfulfilled debt of honor to Elizabeth. When John was first brought to Elizabeth's attention, he was stuck in a dead-end position in Antarctica, left to basically be passed over for promotion enough times that he would be forced to retire from the Air Force due to lack of advancement. In many respects, I think the AU of "Vegas" was meant to serve as a cautionary tale about what our John's life might have been like if he'd never gone to Atlantis. I wouldn't say that Elizabeth offering John a position on the Atlantis expedition saved his life (it's a little melodramatic, for one); perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave him the chance to save himself. I think he understands that, and being a man of honor and integrity who lives by the military's 'we don't leave our people behind' credo, I think John recognizes that he owes Elizabeth something of equal worth. He owes it to her to save her life, to give her the chance to save her own life. Except that he's never been able to do it. That failure has got to be weighing very heavily on him; anyone who ignores that simple truth doesn't understand John Sheppard at all.



Yeah, I think he was relatively happy on Atlantis for the first three years. He'd found a new purpose in his life; something he could do that very few others could. He'd found a new family, united by heart rather than by shared blood. And every time I think of that, I think of "Lilo and Stitch," and the Hawaiian concept of 'ohana,' or family, and that scene at the end of the movie where Stitch is telling the aliens that came to take him back about his new family: "This is my family. I found it, all on my own. Is little, and broken, but still good. Yeah, still good." And I want to cry, because damnit, John is Stitch.

He owes a lot to her, and to Atlantis itself. But as you say, a lot of it is 'giving him the chance to save himself'. He came a long way on the decisions he made once he stepped through the gate, based on him backing his own abilities. He'd been a good soldier all along, just the opportunity to prove it had been missing for a few years.

Guess who's back? Back again... Tell some friends!

*holiday blues kick in*

Gosh, beautiful Hadrian's Wall - I miss you!

Also - rather random:

* as I was perusing the map with my sister yesterday, to see how far the sycamore tree from one of the Robin Hood films was to where we were at that point (too far but we did see a fox pass by - which we had never seen before, a life one in the wild that is), I saw that to the east of us was a place called Weir.

* as we were driving all the way down from up north to Heathrow, a car passed us by with JFH on his license-plate and my mind automatically went "Joe Flanigan H... ?!?".

Yay!!! Welcome back Boy, you sure do a lot of travelling

I can't match that - although I have been told I'm weird. I prefer to think of myself as eccentric

[Southern Red]

Okay, what's this about a missing scene??? Someone fill me in???

JM wrote in his blog that there was a scene cut from Remnants when Kolya is taunting John. Essentially he tells John that he lays awake nights agonizing over not being able to save Elizabeth. There's also something about blaming himself for his mother's death. Both cut.

Okay, another sig, sorry, inspired by the aptly named "Sparks Fly" title track from Taylor Swift's new CD. Seriously, there are Sparky references in every song!

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...jf_shep1-1.jpg

'Kay, goin to sleep now ... or doin somethin else for a bit ...

Night!

That's the best one yet. Sparky is everywhere.

I hate the co-leader description of these two, but it is apt at times. One only has to look at CDT, with the Genii. John never had that input or relationship with the other commanders. Their discussions/decisions there were truly collaborative. Obviously, it has to be a little different with Carter by virtue of the fact that she is his superior officer.

I never looked at it that way but you're right. I don't remember any time when he and Carter or Woolsey actually talked over a decision. They issued orders and John obeyed. And sometimes the look on his face told us he wasn't happy. I wonder if we could argue that he was OOC in S4-5 when he just rolled over and obeyed orders. The only time he got feisty was in S&R and that goes to his need not to lose any more team members/family. Just like he told Keller when he grabbed her arm and said I have had a chance to rescue a team mate before, and it slipped through my hands. I am not letting that happen again. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the missing scene in Remnants when Kolya talks about Elizabeth he tells John that he let her "slip through his hands". A bit of writer continuity or too much credit to them?

He owes a lot to her, and to Atlantis itself. But as you say, a lot of it is 'giving him the chance to save himself'. He came a long way on the decisions he made once he stepped through the gate, based on him backing his own abilities. He'd been a good soldier all along, just the opportunity to prove it had been missing for a few years.

John told Elizabeth in The Intruder that nobody in the Air Force thought he'd ever get past Captain. I think he believed that himself for a time and probably was just not even trying to live beyond their expectations. But the Atlantis mission gave him a purpose again. I think that may have been part of what he wanted to say in 38 Minutes. Damn you, Ford for interrupting. And this is yet again more proof that John was the happiest he had probably ever been for the first 3 years. Then he went to his dark place. But, you know what, he never lost his need to save everyone and never gave up on the mission because he wanted Elizabeth to be proud of him.

[Eri13]

You betcha. The second half was a whole new ball game. And they kept showing the GA/AU score. Bummer. It started out so good. *hugs Eri and passes the Scotch*

It's alright...we weren't expected to win that one so I'm not disappointed.

Be prepared to hug me in two weeks, though, if we don't pull it out against Georgia Tech. Then we won't be bowl eligible for the first time in YEARS. *sniffle*

Talking about John and his burden of command after losing Elizabeth reminded me of a few things.

First, in The Intruder John was so proud of his promotion and made a joke about the burden of command little knowing how real that burden would become in a couple of years.

Then after losing Elizabeth he seemed weighed down by all the responsibilities which didn't change much even with Carter and Woolsey around to be his new boss. Shouldn't having them there have lessened John's stress? Yet he seemed to get darker and sadder as time went on. We know from the scene in Remnants that was deleted that John was seriously burdened by not being able to save Elizabeth. Do you think this was the largest reason for his turn toward his dark side? Was that just the last straw on top of losing Ford and so many other people under his command?

And also, was there ever a time when John was relatively happy? Would you guys say that in S1-3 before everything went sideways John was content to be where he was and despite the demons that plagued his dreams concerning those he had lost that he was glad to go to work every day and was not in any way damaged psychologically? I've been thinking about this and I think there is proof in canon that he enjoyed most of his life on Atlantis.

Like here for example:

Spoiler:

I believe it was. This train of thought draws me back to my personal canon belief that Sheppard has an unfulfilled debt of honor to Elizabeth. When John was first brought to Elizabeth's attention, he was stuck in a dead-end position in Antarctica, left to basically be passed over for promotion enough times that he would be forced to retire from the Air Force due to lack of advancement. In many respects, I think the AU of "Vegas" was meant to serve as a cautionary tale about what our John's life might have been like if he'd never gone to Atlantis. I wouldn't say that Elizabeth offering John a position on the Atlantis expedition saved his life (it's a little melodramatic, for one); perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave him the chance to save himself. I think he understands that, and being a man of honor and integrity who lives by the military's 'we don't leave our people behind' credo, I think John recognizes that he owes Elizabeth something of equal worth. He owes it to her to save her life, to give her the chance to save her own life. Except that he's never been able to do it. That failure has got to be weighing very heavily on him; anyone who ignores that simple truth doesn't understand John Sheppard at all.

Yeah, I think he was relatively happy on Atlantis for the first three years. He'd found a new purpose in his life; something he could do that very few others could. He'd found a new family, united by heart rather than by shared blood. And every time I think of that, I think of "Lilo and Stitch," and the Hawaiian concept of 'ohana,' or family, and that scene at the end of the movie where Stitch is telling the aliens that came to take him back about his new family: "This is my family. I found it, all on my own. Is little, and broken, but still good. Yeah, still good." And I want to cry, because damnit, John is Stitch.

I agree, and I think the contrast in his personality in Seasons 4 and 5 also emphasizes that point. He couldn't have felt as different as he did if there hadn't been something to compare it to in the first place. Whatever your reason, most people agree that John in S4-5 is definitely darker and less 'happy'. For my part, I think it's because the family shifted--first Carson, and then the larger impact of losing Elizabeth.

The whole shake-up of the leadership tree was very poorly done. They didn't feel they had more story to tell with Weir? Well, they did a terrible job of 'telling story' with her replacements. They didn't do half of what Elizabeth did, nor did they have the personality or relationships she did. Maybe they were trying to go away from a 'head of base' as a central figure, and yet because Atlantis was structured the way it was, you couldn't turn it into SG-1 and have the entire story revolve around just off-world teams by just killing off the leader. Because the main crux of the story was how Atlantis dealt with people in the Pegasus, not just SGA-1. The leader had to be there. Yet they never did the show overhaul to make it so they weren't.

All that ended up happening, then, was that the leaders ended up looking weak and absent. I still kinda giggle in GITM when people say that Richard finally started acting like a leader because he was bold in his decision, and I'm thinking--Elizabeth started out that way in the pilot and never gave up acting like a leader until she was forcibly removed...