Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[SMB_BOOKS]

Teasing my way into Sparky season 6...

HOLY CRAP - that gave me goosebumps! WOWEEE!

[Southern Red]

Okay folks - next shindig -

What: Friday Food
When: This Friday at lunch
Where: Sparky Season 6 cafeteria
Who: Sparky Season 6 cast, crew, and staff

Everyone bring your favorite appetizer(s) and a drink to share!

I'm bringing egg rolls, crab rangoon and hmmmmmm some sort of vodka drink.....how about ketel one vodka, pomengranate syrup and lemonade? It's super yummy! Yah, I know, vodka doesn't really go with chinese appetizers, but I really love vodka, so there.

I will bring my favorite Tuscan Dip which has cream cheese, sour cream, sun-dried tomatoes, black olives and red onions. Yum. And my husband will make his famous Sangria.

I've been obsessing over the whole "we gotta change the beds" thing for Sparky Season 6.....LOL

Options? (Ignore the bedding and just go for the look of the bed). They are in no sort of order....

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Sout...17-TH1830.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Fash...6X-FB2260.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Life...ET-LF1341.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Hill...es-HF3614.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Cros...s-BRH3537.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Lexi...C-LTN1165.html

http://www.bedroomfurniture.com/Lexi...C-LTN1162.html


LOL, I guess I'm really concerned where John & Elizabeth are going to sleep!

Edit to Add: Personally, I am a fan of sleigh beds, but that look didn't seem to "fit" with Atlantis design, hehehe.

I love the first one. But the two that SK liked are good too.

Teasing my way into Sparky season 6...

Chills in a good way. Very suspenseful and leaves much to the imagination.

[Scary Kitty]

Love the beds... ...There's potential.

Now, please excuse me while I go yell at Sony Vegas Moviestudio for crashing when I try to trim First Strike.

See, even the software agrees that one shouldn't have happened. Period.

Which certainly makes one wonder how the heck they managed to edit the episode when it was made...

Edit: *cue several minutes later* I gave up on feeding First Strike to the trimmer and instead took one of my own vids and trimmed the piece I needed from there. *sigh*

Anyway... I'm done with feeding the vid-bunny that buzzed around my ears all day. And you have no idea how annoying it is when you're at work, and that bunny's there. And you write down in between work what the vid's gonna be like ... and forget the piece of paper when it's time to go home. *facepalm*

But anyway... done, and I'll leave it up to you to discover what I just spent two hours on thanks to Sony Vegas crashing several times...

Oh, really?

*spots the next post*

Teasing my way into Sparky season 6...

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!! Kate! And Carson! And Lizzie!

That. Is. AWESOME!!!!!!! *runs around screaming in glee*

[Lythisrose]

Just wanted to post some Joe news:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207958
and
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207999
Jace has a FaceBook Page in addition to his Twitter where he mentions Joe:
http://www.facebook.com/JaceHallShow?ref=nf

[Southern Red]

Just wanted to post some Joe news:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207958
and
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207999
Jace has a FaceBook Page in addition to his Twitter where he mentions Joe:
http://www.facebook.com/JaceHallShow?ref=nf

OMG. What do we have to do? How can we let Joe know he needs to go for this with everything he has? Nobody is more perfect for the role.

[drewandian]

OMG. What do we have to do? How can we let Joe know he needs to go for this with everything he has? Nobody is more perfect for the role.

I've retweeted to all *cough*26*cough* of my followers.....I'm hoping some of them (prods hubby) will retweet too....

[Southern Red]

I've retweeted to all *cough*26*cough* of my followers.....I'm hoping some of them (prods hubby) will retweet too....

I sent Jace a message on Facebook. Now how about NBC?

[Scary Kitty]

Just wanted to post some Joe news:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207958
and
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207999
Jace has a FaceBook Page in addition to his Twitter where he mentions Joe:
http://www.facebook.com/JaceHallShow?ref=nf

I know he mentioned the new Rockford Files at the LAX con last November... that would be so damn awesome if he got it!

OMG. What do we have to do? How can we let Joe know he needs to go for this with everything he has? Nobody is more perfect for the role.

In-very-deed.

I'd tweet and do the Facebook thing, except... I'm on neither one of them.

[Reiko]

Aww, Southern Red, that sucks about your trip. That just sucks!

At least, I watched for the characters, not the plots.

If I were watching were for plots, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did. Sure, the Stargate writers had some brilliant ideas, but they often didn't extend them as far as I'd like them to. Not to mention that those mediocre plot ideas FAR outnumber the brilliant ones ... Like you, I watched for the characters and their interactions with one another.

I'm always puzzled when people say they never got to know the characters, that they don't relate much or even seem to like each other.

I get what you mean, SR, and the example you provided of Ronon at Weir's bedside in "Adrift" is an excellent example. However, I am equally perplexed when people say that the characters in Atlantis were almost completely fleshed out. Though I "know" the characters and can relate to them on a basic level, I feel that the TPTB did not put much effort into fleshing out the characters as real people. It seems that every time they dipped their toes in the metaphorical water, they pulled out. Touching the surface as necessary, but never getting as deep as many other shows do. (Sheppard may be the one exception here).

They cast extremely well, know how to make characters who aren't terribly boring that you become sincerely attached to, and yet somewhere there's something missing.

I'd say that if it was not for the brilliant casting of the leads, the show would seriously falter. I don't think the writing on Stargate is as top-notch as it is on shows like BSG or Lost (shows I occasionally catch a glimpse of and hope to see in full sometime). It simply can't stand on it's own as a brilliant script half the time. But the actors take it and do their thing.

I feel there's something missing as well, and the two things that come to my mind are a) the "reset button" at the end of each episode and b) the writers do not go out of their as often as I'd like to develop the characters as people. Because, you know, big spaceship battles are so much more exciting (snerk). But they can only sustain you for so long.

You know, I don't like *perfect* characters.
I like when life tries them. Sometimes they learn from their mistakes, sometimes they don't.
I like when you discover some of their secrets, I like when the dark part of someone comes out and you didn't expect it.
<snip>
I like desperate situations (especially when I can get a partial happy ending).

There's a quote from the Firefly episode "War Stories" that you just made me think of:

Live with a man forty years. Share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up, and hold him over the volcano's edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man.

It's almost a cliche saying, but I think the best and the worst of people comes out when they're faced with dire circumstances. By extension, you can say a lot about human nature when you put people in dire circumstances. Writers have taken advantage of this as long as storytelling has existed, from classic literature (1984, Lord of the Flies come to mind) to tv shows (Lost - stranded on an island, and very much the whole situation on BSG). Atlantis follows this mold, but the writers don't treat as like they should -- instead of treating the situation seriously, they use the whole gimmick to gain access to a sci-fi writer's playground of sorts. This isn't to say we should forget the action sequences, the technology, and the humor. There always ought to be some action in a sci-fi series. Technology is one reason they were there, after all. Levity shouldn't be disallowed (look at Firefly, and even darker shows have their moments), but I think SGA leans toward comic relief far too often. And much of it is not even funny ("Irresistable", anyone?)

Someone on GW a long way back told me "you must really not enjoy tragedy" (or something along those lines) given my utter distaste for Elizabeth's end (ends, actually) and Carson's death. Pfft, I say. I think it's ridiculous to think that a story/episode can be too grim, dark, or somber. (I'm not talking over-the-top graphic violence that afflicts too many horror movies these days; that's another topic). My main gripe is the way such incidents were handled, and this extends to how the situation with characters on Atlantis as a whole was handled. Especially Elizabeth: the forgotten character.

The writers of Atlantis gave us a "fairy tale ending" to what I think they percieved as "a fairy tale story": Keller and Rodney are happy together, Amelia and revived!Ronon are together, Teyla and Kanaan and Torren, Woolsey and clone!Carson are smilin', we've kicked Wraith ass and evaded their fleet (or whatever), Atlantis has landed in the Bay. Order is restored (note where Atlantis started out), everyone is joyful, things are how they "should be". Fairytale ending. I'd even go far to call it Disney. It's a Disney-fied Atlantis.

But something's missing. Elizabeth's still floating in space! And here are still Wraith out there! Carson is really dead! They've seen Kate and Grodin and numerous other expedition members [i]die[/]! The characters have gone through hell and they're act all perfect and happy like they have hardly changed at all! (Ignore Shep; he seems to be an anomaly here, and I'll address him later.). SGA TPTB try to pass this off as a fairy tale ending (like SG1), but it's not and it shouldn't be. The ending is fake.

Now, if SGA was a story that took inself seriously (no Irresistables or Towers), it would have been different. Magical reset button wants us to think order is restored. (It happens even on an episode-to-episode basis!). But in a serious story, order just may not be restored, and if it is, the characters will have to paid a high price for it. They will have physical and emotional scars. At the same time, they may have some scars that are healed. They may have a change of perspective. Along with the viewer, they have been challenged with stimulating dilemmas and moral choices. Those experiences should have changed them! It's called 3D character change, for cryin' out loud. How is that such a bloody hard concept to understand!?

::feels like banging head against laptop keyboard::

Ahem. Am I asking for too much?

I realise that this is degenerating into a rant against the "all is well in San Francisco" ending of Atlantis. So back on topic.

I don't have a problem with happy endings. Unfortunately, Atlantis is not a fairy tale, and any happy ending should be compromised by their experiences. You don't come out of a situation like that as the same person you were before. So say the SGA writers had truly gone along a darker road, and had ended the show in a manner organic to what had happened. It might've not been a Disneyfied result at the end. It would probably be bittersweet. (I'll admit that the bittersweet ending is my favourite; not too saccarine, but not too bitter, either.)

I would prefer an honest but bittersweet, uncertain, or even grim conclusion to Stargate Atlantis than the phony, repeated heroics or Disneyfied sugar of "Enemy at the Gate".

I'd also like to leave a memo (to the SGA writers) that tragedy does not mean better story. It has to be well-executed, too. So, in the end ... I'm not saying that SGA should equal shows like BSG in terms of the degree of seriousness. Disney and BSG are, like, antithetical There is a wide spectrum imbetween, though ... and on that scale, SGA was a little too unrealistically Disney (in my opinion).

I can't stand the 'reset at the beginning of each episode' button used in SGA either. It's stupid! Of course these people are going to change if you run them through the wringer! Not only did the characters get used, frankly, so did the audience.

Scary Kitty, did you read my recent post in the S5 Critique topic? This was one of my main criticisms, the "reset button" routine. I think part of it was that the writers wanted to be able to change the order in which the episodes aired (remember the changing episode schedules?), and I think it severely handicapped SGA. There's no real lasting impact, emotion, or development when things are reset at the start of the next episode.

Not to mention that it makes the show look like a mess. It's not cohesive. You don't get the sense that each episode belongs to a single narrative of the expedition of Atlantis (as it should be). It just feels fragmented because there is no single "big picture".

On the other hand, a casual viewer, who never pays much attention except for in fight sequences (hello, bf) is confused by the extreme continuity of BSG. It's almost like watching one big story. (Which I thought was brilliant, but bf did not appreciate it. Stupid men.)

Oddly enough, it seems the large majority of successful and popular dramatic television shows in the last five years have been serialized: Lost, BSG, 24, Alias, FlashForward, just to name a few. It's what many viewers seem to prefer (including myself). SGA (and SG1, at least in it's later years) seem like they should be serialized in the same vein (and at times pretend to be). Instead, they're run in the same fashion as more episodic shows like Castle. The thing is, that format works for Castle and it feels right for that show. But it just doesn't sit right for SGA.

SGA could have several advantages if it had a serialized format (that was done right, of course). You can take advantages of cool mythologies and ongoing mysteries. Character development would have to carry to the next episode. The only disadvantage is that you get less new viewers hopping on in the fray. I know fans of Lost joke that if you miss so much as 30 seconds from an episode you will be lost. And perhaps this is what SG producers are afraid of.

[Lythisrose]

Intermission:
I think I’ll post this everywhere: Jace Hall says:
“I think NBC will be casting Rockford soon. If you want #JoeRockford you better tell NBC and the producers of the show. Make noise! More FLAN”

Contact page for NBC, not sure if it’s the right place, but worth a shot:
http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/?__status=1

[Scary Kitty]

Damn, Reiko, that is one awesome post, and I've totally GREENED you for it!

Reactions to a few of the highlights...

If I were watching were for plots, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did. Sure, the Stargate writers had some brilliant ideas, but they often didn't extend them as far as I'd like them to. Not to mention that those mediocre plot ideas FAR outnumber the brilliant ones ... Like you, I watched for the characters and their interactions with one another.



I get what you mean, SR, and the example you provided of Ronon at Weir's bedside in "Adrift" is an excellent example. However, I am equally perplexed when people say that the characters in Atlantis were almost completely fleshed out. Though I "know" the characters and can relate to them on a basic level, I feel that the TPTB did not put much effort into fleshing out the characters as real people. It seems that every time they dipped their toes in the metaphorical water, they pulled out. Touching the surface as necessary, but never getting as deep as many other shows do. (Sheppard may be the one exception here).



I'd say that if it was not for the brilliant casting of the leads, the show would seriously falter. I don't think the writing on Stargate is as top-notch as it is on shows like BSG or Lost (shows I occasionally catch a glimpse of and hope to see in full sometime). It simply can't stand on it's own as a brilliant script half the time. But the actors take it and do their thing.

I think all three of these points crystallize the way I saw the lack of development of SGA into a cohesive and well-rounded series. As this is a ship thread, I'll use ship as my illustration in microcosm. Any relationship between two characters depicted on TV, film or the stage requires two basic things: good writing, and good actors. You can have the most brilliantly written script, worthy of any award, but without actors who have equally stellar chemistry with each other, that script is going to fall flat on its face. But if you've got actors who have that chemistry, who can play off each other so instinctively that an audience is pulled into the scene and believes in the relationship, even the crappiest script can look like gold. Or, at least, fool's gold, in the case of SGA.

I'd say the one consistent thing about SGA's writing was that it was inconsistent. That's nothing for any self-respecting writer to be proud of.

The acting, on the other hand, consistently blew me away. Joe Flanigan, I'm especially looking at you with your woobie!Sheppard-for-Weir eyes.

Scary Kitty, did you read my recent post in the S5 Critique topic? This was one of my main criticisms, the "reset button" routine. I think part of it was that the writers wanted to be able to change the order in which the episodes aired (remember the changing episode schedules?), and I think it severely handicapped SGA. There's no real lasting impact, emotion, or development when things are reset at the start of the next episode.

Not to mention that it makes the show look like a mess. It's not cohesive. You don't get the sense that each episode belongs to a single narrative of the expedition of Atlantis (as it should be). It just feels fragmented because there is no single "big picture".

I think I did read it on a rare foray out of the Sparky Safe Zone.

I do recall that one of the producers (maybe Mallozzi, I don't know) did mention wanting to keep things more episodic to make the show more attractive for sales to syndication outlets. I'd say that ties in with what I mention below about the producers not keeping up with the Joneses, as it were, in terms of the styles of dramatic television popular with audiences today. They're ten years out of date, and Atlantis suffered for it.

And no, it's not too much to ask for some realistic character development, seeing them emotionally scarred from enduring so much hardship. If they're going to go to the trouble of killing off characters, then they need to stop half-assing it and start consistently show the survivors dealing with the trauma from week to week, instead of just when it's convenient for the writers to slide it into a script. Bah!

Oddly enough, it seems the large majority of successful and popular dramatic television shows in the last five years have been serialized: Lost, BSG, 24, Alias, FlashForward, just to name a few. It's what many viewers seem to prefer (including myself). SGA (and SG1, at least in it's later years) seem like they should be serialized in the same vein (and at times pretend to be). Instead, they're run in the same fashion as more episodic shows like Castle. The thing is, that format works for Castle and it feels right for that show. But it just doesn't sit right for SGA.

SGA could have several advantages if it had a serialized format (that was done right, of course). You can take advantages of cool mythologies and ongoing mysteries. Character development would have to carry to the next episode. The only disadvantage is that you get less new viewers hopping on in the fray. I know fans of Lost joke that if you miss so much as 30 seconds from an episode you will be lost. And perhaps this is what SG producers are afraid of.

I'd say that's exactly what they're afraid of. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that they don't understand it. As you've pointed out, many of the recent and current dramas on television use a serialized format... heck, so did Babylon 5, and it was on before SG-1 ever took to the air. Talk about B5 being ahead of it's time! But Stargate's PTW have been doing Stargate in the episodic format for over ten years. They're so firmly entrenched in their ways that they simply know no other way of doing it. They've tried and are still trying to imitate the "new" way, and failing miserably because they just can't bring themselves to completely let go of their old formula. So the franchise stagnates and we all wonder about what could've been.


Oh well. Back to Sparky Season 6, where we'll show the world How To Do It Right.

[nephtys59]

Teasing my way into Sparky season 6...

Great!!!
I feel like I need to make my trailer and banner too!
Where do I get a Sparky Season 6 logo?

[Probie]

Love the topics here. Food, bed and Joe....The perfect world.

FH: Nice teaser.I want to see this season in real now.lol

Time to go to work and fight with snow. See you later.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

SGA didn't even need to be serialized the same way things like LOST BSG or Alias were(are). And to be honest, as much as I love serialized shows, I'm not certain I'd want it to be. But things like McKay being sad about Elizabeth the VERY NEXT EPISODE after he said he'd be sad about Elizabeth if he didn't have work to do, would have helped.

As far as the show itself goes. I think that despite the lack of direction that seemed to appear into the show at times, the whole thing turned out fairly great. It's probably the show that most captured my imagination in the last few years. The show is interesting to talk about because over the course of the entire 5 year run, in my opinion the writers had some of their best AND worst work in it. This, I feel, increased in the fourth season but was and even more most overwhelming in the fifth. So it's really not possible, in my view,to make any sort of blanket statements about being simply good and bad.

[nephtys59]

SGA didn't even need to be serialized the same way things like LOST BSG or Alias were(are).

No, but continuity and character development were needed and welcomed.
Some characters, such as Teyla and Carson, weren't even given the chance to grow. Totally flat, imho.