Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[atlantis_babe34]

morning everyone!

whoooa, i leave for a day and come abck and we are still on this debate

[Anjirika]

That's not a really good example, though. Star Trek's Starfleet is not at all like the US military in many respects... Starfleet, by the TNG/DS9/Voyager era, allows families on many of their ships, with both members of a couple being crew members working together on a day-to-day basis.

Oh I don't know about that...maybe on the Enterprise they allowed familes because it was equipped for that- I look at that as a flying base where as Voyager was a ship and I remember Janeway having a conversation with Chakotay if they were going to stop people from fratrenizing or just allow it to happen.... so even there she could have gone the other way if their powers had deemed it so.

I know the evil JM had mentioned on his blog a few times throughout this past year that Sheppard would be getting darker with some "angsty rage" (his exact words, iirc) this season. We certainly seem to have gotten some of that already. And I can't wait to see what the heck Shep's gonna do

Spoiler:

now that he "believes" that Elizabeth is "dead." BAMSR is going to be about Team Atlantis taking it to the Replicators, and I so want to see Shep go all "blood, death, and vengeance!" on those RepliFreaks. Muahahah!

I'm loving dark!Shep. He said in "Sateda" that he'd do anything for his family, and though we've gotten glimpses of this before, it's been raised to an all new level this season. Love it, love it, love it. JF can really take this stuff and run with it; he injects so much more nuance and shading to Sheppard than one would ever think from just reading the script.

Well I for one can't wait to see the back half of the season... my heart won't be in it, but due to the lack of ANY good TV I've come to the conclusion that I might as well watch the rest of season 4- just to look for any sparky references....

....and with that, I'm calling it a night. G'night!

[atlantis_babe34]

Anyhooo,

Has anyone got any good sparky vids they have seen? i'm going cold turkey

[nogigglingmajor]

Okay, on the military non-fraternization rules... I dug up the official document for the Air Force regs on the Air Force E-Publishing website. The links are to a PDF file, so you will need Acrobat Reader installed on your computer to view the files.

The original publication, dated May 1999

The latest revision, dated August 2004



Exactly. "Duty before self" is quintessential John and Elizabeth. They both live by a code of honor, and to forsake that would run counter to everything they are. They can be friends, heck, they need to be friends. They do need to have someone outside themselves to turn to for advice and a shoulder to lean on for a while when their burden becomes to heavy to carry. Otherwise they'd probably be candidates for the looney bin in a week! But at the same time, they have to be able to carry on without the other if something happens.



Civilian under military command is certainly the most typical example, but the wording of the "Relationships with Civilian Employees and Government Contractor Personnel" section appears to make it implicit that a military under civilian control situation (which seems to be what Atlantis would really be, at least for Seasons 1-3) would also apply. Such a relationship would have the same pitfalls regardless of whether it's a military or civilian command.



That's not a really good example, though. Star Trek's Starfleet is not at all like the US military in many respects... Starfleet, by the TNG/DS9/Voyager era, allows families on many of their ships, with both members of a couple being crew members working together on a day-to-day basis.



Actually, the regulations do make specific mention of "reasonable accomodation for married members and members related by blood or marriage," so provided it can be proven that Carolyn earned her position at the SGC through her own merit, there probably wouldn't be an issue. A recommendation from Landry for the position is still just a recommendation; others higher up in the chain of command would have to go over Carolyn's record with a fine tooth comb before she was approved.



Absolutely! I see John as being someone who keeps his heart very close to him, because of his work, because of the issues he apparently has with

Spoiler:

his flesh-and-blood family and his ex-wife which we're supposed to find out more about in "Outcast."

But he's the kind of person who, on the rare occasion when he does give his heart, he gives it completely, and when his heart is broken, it's devastating. I think perhaps his past may be part of why he's so reluctant to open up to people; he's been hurt before and is afraid of being burned again.



I agree...

Spoiler:

Hopefully, "The Last Man" will be what "Epiphany" should have been.

I know the evil JM had mentioned on his blog a few times throughout this past year that Sheppard would be getting darker with some "angsty rage" (his exact words, iirc) this season. We certainly seem to have gotten some of that already. And I can't wait to see what the heck Shep's gonna do

Spoiler:

now that he "believes" that Elizabeth is "dead." BAMSR is going to be about Team Atlantis taking it to the Replicators, and I so want to see Shep go all "blood, death, and vengeance!" on those RepliFreaks. Muahahah!

I'm loving dark!Shep. He said in "Sateda" that he'd do anything for his family, and though we've gotten glimpses of this before, it's been raised to an all new level this season. Love it, love it, love it. JF can really take this stuff and run with it; he injects so much more nuance and shading to Sheppard than one would ever think from just reading the script.

In all honesty I think the frat regs are stupid. I'm in the air force and i'll still stand by this. i can see their reasoning, but in that they have doomed themselves.

The military defends us right? is supposed to be top notch, disciplines, in some cases top secret and all the saving ass stuff? Yet TPTB are still stupid enough to think people actually work better together in UST or ULT. Seems a bit loopy to me. Another point is in Top secret stuff, the military have no right to expect their people to be able to carry out normal relationships with outside people. Do they really think that "Sorry honey, going to somewhere i can't tell you, don't know when I'll be back' is going to be accepted forever? No relationship should be expected to take that strain. Sure sometimes it may work, but i know I would certainly find it very hard.

Sorry, really needed to vent.

[Scary Kitty]

And that's exactly what I want from sci fi in general, and why I prefer Star trek. It's more life oriented. And members of a family working together? Well d'oh, that is possible and can work.

The problem is, both Stargate series are focused on the exploration of the galaxy/fight against evil aliens story; the personal lives of the characters have always been secondary to that. It's an uphill battle.

Oh I don't know about that...maybe on the Enterprise they allowed familes because it was equipped for that- I look at that as a flying base where as Voyager was a ship and I remember Janeway having a conversation with Chakotay if they were going to stop people from fratrenizing or just allow it to happen.... so even there she could have gone the other way if their powers had deemed it so.

That's quite true about the comparison between the ships. But the very fact that Starfleet specifically equipped generational ships like the Enterprise for families says that Starfleet did take a look at the issue and decided to take a more accomodating approach to it than the US military. The precedent set by TNG ultimately guided the course on Voyager.

Well I for one can't wait to see the back half of the season... my heart won't be in it, but due to the lack of ANY good TV I've come to the conclusion that I might as well watch the rest of season 4- just to look for any sparky references....

....and with that, I'm calling it a night. G'night!

That's the spirit! We can find Sparky anywhere!

And good night! Have pleasant Sparky-rific dreams!

In all honesty I think the frat regs are stupid. I'm in the air force and i'll still stand by this. i can see their reasoning, but in that they have doomed themselves.

The military defends us right? is supposed to be top notch, disciplines, in some cases top secret and all the saving ass stuff? Yet TPTB are still stupid enough to think people actually work better together in UST or ULT. Seems a bit loopy to me. Another point is in Top secret stuff, the military have no right to expect their people to be able to carry out normal relationships with outside people. Do they really think that "Sorry honey, going to somewhere i can't tell you, don't know when I'll be back' is going to be accepted forever? No relationship should be expected to take that strain. Sure sometimes it may work, but i know I would certainly find it very hard.

Sorry, really needed to vent.

Heh! Believe me, I can see your point, especially about the top secret operations. The stress that kind of work can place on relationships is tremendous; who better for those who are in such work to turn to for friendship (and more than that) than those they serve with... because they get it. They understand what that kind of life is like, far better than any outsider.

That said, the brass does have good reasons for those regs, and in this day and age of endless lawsuits, a big part of it may be the armed forces simply trying to cover their own *sses so they don't get blamed for problems that may result from such relationships going bad.

And "doomed themselves?" That may be so. After all, just look at what happened to Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi. Ooops. What? Someone had to say it.

[Ruined_puzzle]

Attention All Elizabeth/Torri fans….

Suzotchka got a great tip from Nicoleta about a way to send a fun message to the networks, media sources, and your online friends who watch SGA, etc., about our efforts to save Elizabeth.

1. Access the following webpage
http://otherlandonline.com/sgamessaging/index.php

2. Follow the online steps to create a message using an excerpt from a SGA show. I used This Mortal Coil. There’s not a lot of room for the message, so keep it simple. For example….
Screen #1 – There is still time!
Screen #2 – Save Elizabeth Weir
Screen #3 – www.saveelizabethweir.com

Or, come up with your own message. Just keep it polite, please.

3. Fill in the required blanks at the bottom (contact name/email address, etc.). I don’t think you can add multiple addresses, I think you have to create a separate message for each recipient. (I could be wrong about that).

4. Email addresses suggestions:

Spoiler:

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

*NEW* Entertainment Weekly: [email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

Email TV guide:
[email protected]

Suzotchka and I tested the site and the messages we sent to each other went through.

Thanks to Nicoleta for the great tip!

Have Fun!

Ooo, I'll do it tomorrow.

[Vixen]

Love that. HB even does the same face acting as JF. Or vice versa. This is my favorite scene, and Sparky would set the house on fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MheNUWyROv8&NR=1

Indeed they would.

[Southern Red]

Just a quick word on the fraternization discussion. The regs apply to members of the military and civilian employees of the military. Elizabeth is neither. The IOA is really in charge overall and the role of people like O'Neill and the US president has always seemed a bit vague to me. I think when they set this up they would have written their own regs. Until we see those we can't really say anything, but I dare say any relationship between her and John would be frowned on if not outright against the rules.

Now, John is the military commander of the base. Anyone he works with is off limits including Teyla. He could date the scientists if they're not on his team, and somebody like Keller for example would be in a gray area IMHO. All the responsibility would lie with him and he would be held accountable for anything that reflected badly on the Air Force. Ronon and Teyla are technically not employees but would be representatives of their individual civilizations. I'm thinking they would fall into the diplomat area and would thus be subject to the rules as set up governing diplomats attached to the expedition. Again, rules we don't know about. Diplomats here get away with all sorts of crimes, but John is the one who would be held accountable.

Confused yet? Then that just proves my point. We don't know.

Top secret stuff does put a strain on marriages. The military here has a very high rate of divorce, mostly because of the long separations. OT, my son't friend just got back from Iraq and within the first week accomplished something his wife had not been able to do. He taught his young son to pee standing up. Mission accomplished.

[Anuna]

Just a quick word on the fraternization discussion. The regs apply to members of the military and civilian employees of the military. Elizabeth is neither. The IOA is really in charge overall and the role of people like O'Neill and the US president has always seemed a bit vague to me. I think when they set this up they would have written their own regs. Until we see those we can't really say anything, but I dare say any relationship between her and John would be frowned on if not outright against the rules.

Now, John is the military commander of the base. Anyone he works with is off limits including Teyla. He could date the scientists if they're not on his team, and somebody like Keller for example would be in a gray area IMHO. All the responsibility would lie with him and he would be held accountable for anything that reflected badly on the Air Force. Ronon and Teyla are technically not employees but would be representatives of their individual civilizations. I'm thinking they would fall into the diplomat area and would thus be subject to the rules as set up governing diplomats attached to the expedition. Again, rules we don't know about. Diplomats here get away with all sorts of crimes, but John is the one who would be held accountable.

Confused yet? Then that just proves my point. We don't know.

Top secret stuff does put a strain on marriages. The military here has a very high rate of divorce, mostly because of the long separations. OT, my son't friend just got back from Iraq and within the first week accomplished something his wife had not been able to do. He taught his young son to pee standing up. Mission accomplished.

Well I'm not confused but the rules are definitely ... grey. I guess there is no black and white in real life, and there's even less in science fiction, where, essentially, people telling the story set the rules. That's why one can use sci fi to tell us something about the world we live in, and, a world how it could or should be.

Apart from being pretty romantic I'm also pretty pacifistic. I don't particularly like the military and the set of rules military comes with. I do know very well why said rules exist, including the frat regs. And while Atlantis emphasizes military aspect of the show, I like to think of the expedition as a colony (keep in mind that's my own interpretation, or that's at least what I like to read and write about, because in that way Atlantis becomes something more than just a project), and for me, colonies are about life and surviving.

Friendship, and close relationships, respect and love all fall into that domain and are basic human needs. People need to be connected; without that our hearts and souls die and our bodies become sick.

You don't need to share bed with someone to give that person preferential treatment. A simple friendship can do the trick, and I guess life is full of grey areas and challenges like that. Could two leaders in love still be good leaders? In my world, the answer is yes. Of course a relationship like that would be a great challenge (and I would love to watch those challenges!), and yes it would be frowned upon, but we're talking about fiction here, and at least in fiction love can conquer all. And it doesn't have to be a soap opera, but a story that could teach many things, if well written. That's my point of view at least.

I'll dare to say that world that needs military and regulations like fraternization regulations isn't a good world. Yes I know what's the reality like. i had a fair share of that sort of reality early in my life, and that's precisely why I hold this point of view. I hope for a better world and that's something I search for in books, fiction of all kinds, that's something I'm trying to portray in my own stories. I think it's important to remind people world could be better and all of us could be happy. Maybe I'm just naive (which I don't think I am, but I am pretty sensitive) and maybe my thoughts are ahead of our time. All of us wish to be right at the end. Either way... thanx for reading this ramble guys.

I remain hopelessly romantic and believing that people can earn their happy endings.

[Vixen]

The judges of Atlantis Idol found Rodney's interpretation of Elvis's Jailhouse Rock to be pretty uncomfortable on the ears...and eyes.

[Anuna]

The judges of Atlantis Idol found Rodney's interpretation of Elvis's Jailhouse Rock to be pretty uncomfortable on the ears...and eyes.

Oh my God!!!! I'm my stomach hurts now!!!

[Pocus]

Spoiler:

Just a quick word on the fraternization discussion. The regs apply to members of the military and civilian employees of the military. Elizabeth is neither. The IOA is really in charge overall and the role of people like O'Neill and the US president has always seemed a bit vague to me. I think when they set this up they would have written their own regs. Until we see those we can't really say anything, but I dare say any relationship between her and John would be frowned on if not outright against the rules.

Now, John is the military commander of the base. Anyone he works with is off limits including Teyla. He could date the scientists if they're not on his team, and somebody like Keller for example would be in a gray area IMHO. All the responsibility would lie with him and he would be held accountable for anything that reflected badly on the Air Force. Ronon and Teyla are technically not employees but would be representatives of their individual civilizations. I'm thinking they would fall into the diplomat area and would thus be subject to the rules as set up governing diplomats attached to the expedition. Again, rules we don't know about. Diplomats here get away with all sorts of crimes, but John is the one who would be held accountable.

Confused yet? Then that just proves my point. We don't know.

Top secret stuff does put a strain on marriages. The military here has a very high rate of divorce, mostly because of the long separations

. OT, my son't friend just got back from Iraq and within the first week accomplished something his wife had not been able to do. He taught his young son to pee standing up. Mission accomplished.

Great job explaining things. And Yeah for standing up to pee. It is a talent not all boys acquire at a young age, believe it or not. It does make it more difficult to pee on your own head if you are standing up. (don't ask! )

Well I'm not confused but the rules are definitely ... grey.

Spoiler:

I guess there is no black and white in real life, and there's even less in science fiction, where, essentially, people telling the story set the rules. That's why one can use sci fi to tell us something about the world we live in, and, a world how it could or should be.

Apart from being pretty romantic I'm also pretty pacifistic. I don't particularly like the military and the set of rules military comes with. I do know very well why said rules exist, including the frat regs. And while Atlantis emphasizes military aspect of the show, I like to think of the expedition as a colony (keep in mind that's my own interpretation, or that's at least what I like to read and write about, because in that way Atlantis becomes something more than just a project), and for me, colonies are about life and surviving.

Friendship, and close relationships, respect and love all fall into that domain and are basic human needs. People need to be connected; without that our hearts and souls die and our bodies become sick.

You don't need to share bed with someone to give that person preferential treatment. A simple friendship can do the trick, and I guess life is full of grey areas and challenges like that. Could two leaders in love still be good leaders? In my world, the answer is yes. Of course a relationship like that would be a great challenge (and I would love to watch those challenges!), and yes it would be frowned upon, but we're talking about fiction here, and at least in fiction love can conquer all. And it doesn't have to be a soap opera, but a story that could teach many things, if well written. That's my point of view at least.

I'll dare to say that world that needs military and regulations like fraternization regulations isn't a good world. Yes I know what's the reality like. i had a fair share of that sort of reality early in my life, and that's precisely why I hold this point of view. I hope for a better world and that's something I search for in books, fiction of all kinds, that's something I'm trying to portray in my own stories. I think it's important to remind people world could be better and all of us could be happy. Maybe I'm just naive (which I don't think I am, but I am pretty sensitive) and maybe my thoughts are ahead of our time. All of us wish to be right at the end. Either way... thanx for reading this ramble guys.

I remain hopelessly romantic and believing that people can earn their happy endings.

Great ramble. I do want my shows to be a bit more optimistic than real life. I am surrounded by not fun things all the time and I would like things to be a little more fun in my fantasy world. Not perfect by any means, just happier!

[Pocus]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4113/fszj9.jpg
The judges of Atlantis Idol found Rodney's interpretation of Elvis's Jailhouse Rock to be pretty uncomfortable on the ears...and eyes.

Bwahahahaha! Love John's face!

It is great how this thread can go from discussion to silliness in one post!

[Anuna]

Great job explaining things. And Yeah for standing up to pee. It is a talent not all boys acquire at a young age, believe it or not. It does make it more difficult to pee on your own head if you are standing up. (don't ask! )



Great ramble. I do want my shows to be a bit more optimistic than real life. I am surrounded by not fun things all the time and I would like things to be a little more fun in my fantasy world. Not perfect by any means, just happier!

Thank you sweetie. I'm trying to be positive and give new perspectives. It takes so little to be happier and that's what I'm looking for all the time.

Bwahahahaha! Love John's face!

It is great how this thread can go from discussion to silliness in one post!

Vixen is great with these captions!

Now I'm gonna drop you a gift and then I'm going to pack my things - I'm leaving for few days and I'll be back some time next week. Behave, my lovely sparks, and have great time!

Fic: Listen

[justhere1971]

I have said this in other threads. So I guess I will repeat here too. It's a fictional show. With fictional rules. As much as they want to stick to reality, it's a sci-fi show. RL rules just don't apply. Military or non military.

I think they all formed close bonds. That's what was/is necessary to survive in a hostile environment. Rules were overlooked, because I am sure as you are threatened by the wraith, the last thing on your mind is how the IOA would frown.