Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[SazZat]

We so have to agree to agree tonight!!!

OMG! The Chanel wraith FTW! I would have gone for the Gucci or D&G!W.Queen but yeah, The Chanel Wraith is a nice way to put it

IIRC, the Chanel wraith was how Andee put it...I think anyway. Meh, she said she liked the costume anyway because it was fashionable. That's good enough for me

*twirls*

[Pocus]

Smelly Wraith..Smelly Wraith,
What are they feeding you?
Smelly Wraith, Smelly Wraith,
It's not your fault

They won't take you to the vet
You're obviously not their favorite pet
Smelly Qyeen, Smelly Queen,
It's not your fault

You may not be a bed of roses
You're not friend to those with noses
I'll miss you before we're done
Or the world will smell as one

*g* I guess, even the D&G outfit can't help the smell, lol

LOL!!! Can't Breathe!!!!

[Blower'sGate]

IIRC, the Chanel wraith was how Andee put it...I think anyway. Meh, she said she liked the costume anyway because it was fashionable. That's good enough for me

*twirls*

Oh you're right! Now I do remember. Still, I remember telling Moo I thought it looked more like Gucci or D&G's work.

LOL!!! Can't Breathe!!!!

LMFAO!!! *g*

Edit : You can never get too much "and" enough of Friends. Plus, John and Elizabeth are each other's lobster!

[justhere1971]

Oh you're right! Now I do remember. Still, I remember telling Moo I thought it looked more like Gucci or D&G's work.



LMFAO!!! *g*

Edit : You can never get too much "and" enough of Friends. Plus, John and Elizabeth are each other's lobster!

Did you know a female lobster is called a hen? I learned that the other day. Made me want to throw up for some reason.

& I'd totally go with Chanel Wraith.

[SallyLizzie]

( Spoilers for Adrift/Lifeline )

Spoiler:

He's more frustrated knowing she's still out there somewhere alive rather than knowing if she was dead and lost forever, already. That is why he was so angry at Rodney!

Lifeline

Spoiler:

Very true! There's a lot to be said for closure. It's the not knowing that's the real killer in situations like this. People accept that people die - they deal with it. But not knowing leads to questions which can torment a person... is she alive? is she dead? is she being tortured? have they gotten information from her? have nanites taken over her system completely? etc.

I see John as too experienced to let such thoughts plague him. There's a chance she's alive and that's all he needs to focus on.

I don't see that as suicidal as much as he is willing to give all to save others. Suicidal has always seemed to me to lack of hope that things will improve. Sheppard seems to me to believe that he must give all, even his life if necessary, to make things improve.

Exactly. People who are happy don't kill themselves. It's people who aren't happy or who have no hope that check out early. John has hope - Elizabeth gave it to him when she employed him on Atlantis and fought for his promotion.

S4

Spoiler:

That's also worth remembering when asking why John is still fighting to look for Elizabeth. It's in his nature not to leave anyone behind, and it was that act that earned him a black mark. One which Elizabeth knew about but gave him a chance regardless. He owes her; she didn't give up on him so he's not going to give up on her.

And he would do it even if there was absolutely no hope of making a difference or actually saving the day - he would feel obliged to sacrifice himself - that's why I call it suicidal.

Not true. He wasn't willing to sacrifice himself in TS/TE or Trinity, and I'm sure there are a number of other examples. When he chooses to go on high-risk missions it's because it is his job, and he's that good at his job that - besides Ronon and Teyla - he probably stands the best chance of succeeding. It's more "This is something I can do" than "Yay, here's another chance at death."

And that makes me wonder how he got through military training with a trait like that.

When you join the military, you are trained to believe you are dead everytime you step into war zone. It's not nice, but it's that belief that could very well save your life.

Of course, I don't see John as suicidal at all. Given everything he has been through during his career, if he were suicidal he would be showing clear signs. As it is, he's not showing any signs, imo.

Shep IMO feels forced to be the one to make *that* decision - I'll be the one who makes the sacrifice. I'll be the one to go on a suicide mission. It goes even deeper than his care for the other (which is greater than his care of himslef). Think of TS/TE. When he was pushed over the certain edge - and that happened in the moment when Kolya told him he killed Elizabeth - Sheppard nearly exploded. Rage took him over and I felt he didn't really care what happens to him at the end.

Iirc, the only suicide mission John has ever been on was at the end of Seige 2, and the consequences of that mission failing were immense - not only would Atlantis be destroyed, but the Wraith would have a new feeding ground in Earth. John was the best pilot they had, making him the best chance for the mission to succede. Don't forgot he also mentioned if he succeeded that Elizabeth would have to order two others to do the same. Except knowing Elizabeth, she wouldn't have ordered; she would have asked for volunteers. And she'd have gotten them. Not because Atlantis is full of suicidal personell, but bc when they signed up, they took on a duty to protect their country at whatever cost.

Yes, John was full of rage during TE but I didn't see him explode. He channelled that anger into something positive by strategising against the Genii. A person with suicidal tendancies would have gone all guns blazing with no forward planning.

She doesn't have the same history as him, she is much more responsible and she thinks things more carefully through.

I remember Melyanna making the very valid point that Elizabeth had likely seen more of the effects of war than John had, during her negotiation work. John's life as a pilot was on base and in the plane; Elizabeth would have been transported by car through villages strewn with bodies to get to the embassy. So in regards to seeing certain aspects of war which could cause mind problems, Elizabeth wins.

[Lady eliza]

LOL!!! Can't Breathe!!!!

LOL!!!! I'm catching up still but Adrift was fantastic. The angst in it was unbelievable and John's face when he heard bout what they wanted to do for Weir, oh my I would have hated to be rodney at that moment...

They didn't push in sam either, which i liked.

[Anjirika]

I don't think it developed in that age. It goes hand in had with his tendency to disobey authority figures, which, I guess draws back to his relationship with his father- but since we have no canon for this, it's just my guess, and it's how traits like these are usually gained.

Really? Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. But with the lack of anything canon I'm still going to say that John was a semi niave man who entered the army (with no family behind him) trying to find a place where he could belong. When he found out that he couldn't (Afganistan) things began to chance. Lizzie of course gave him a second chance and a place where he could find out who he was and what was important. Saving the greater good at all costs.... ^_^ Just my opinion of course.

[Anuna]

Really? Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. But with the lack of anything canon I'm still going to say that John was a semi niave man who entered the army (with no family behind him) trying to find a place where he could belong. When he found out that he couldn't (Afganistan) things began to chance. Lizzie of course gave him a second chance and a place where he could find out who he was and what was important. Saving the greater good at all costs.... ^_^ Just my opinion of course.

Actually i think many men who enter the army are semi naive - in regards of their future profession. No matter what type (branch? how do you call that in English guys?) of army you choose you are trained for one purpose only - to kill the enemy. And yes, you are trained to believe you are dead the minute you step on the battlefield.

Army does aim to develop that sense of belonging in someone. You are trained to stick to your team, defend them, go where they go. Since that is something what John needs - belonging - that aspect of army particularly suits his personality.

As for war and battle experience... I don't know about being taken trough burnt villages, but I think John does have considerable battle experience. His rank was Major when we "met" him in "The Rising" after all. He couldn't gain that rank without spending time in actual battle and seeing victims of war doesn't come close to being in the line of fire and seeing people being killed or wounded, which I don't think Elizabeth could have seen. Okay, maybe she could in some extreme situation. But John has seen more of that, and more so, he killed people. That's something that leaves a mark on you, no matter how well trained you are. IMO, he could have more mental problems due to his battlefield experience.

[Sukiyaki]

Actually i think many men who enter the army are semi naive - in regards of their future profession. No matter what type (branch? how do you call that in English guys?) of army you choose you are trained for one purpose only - to kill the enemy. And yes, you are trained to believe you are dead the minute you step on the battlefield.

Army does aim to develop that sense of belonging in someone. You are trained to stick to your team, defend them, go where they go. Since that is something what John needs - belonging - that aspect of army particularly suits his personality.

As for war and battle experience... I don't know about being taken trough burnt villages, but I think John does have considerable battle experience. His rank was Major when we "met" him in "The Rising" after all. He couldn't gain that rank without spending time in actual battle and seeing victims of war doesn't come close to being in the line of fire and seeing people being killed or wounded, which I don't think Elizabeth could have seen. Okay, maybe she could in some extreme situation. But John has seen more of that, and more so, he killed people. That's something that leaves a mark on you, no matter how well trained you are. IMO, he could have more mental problems due to his battlefield experience.

Hopefully in OUTCAST

Spoiler:

the writers would deliver what they promised about John's background, so we know what made him the way he is. Though we are given bits and pieces of it, there's still a lot of stuff that we don't know about him. Does anybody know if his father and brother are in the military also?

And it's a bit late, but REUNION:

Spoiler:

I like that John is still focused on rescuing Elizabeth and I would have liked him to just go ahead and do so, even without Sam's, or the IOA's approval. I really expected him to go into a full blown argument with Sam about it, like the way he did with Elizabeth in Rising, about rescuing Sumner. But he didn't, and it's probably because Sam said the same things Elizabeth said, that she won't allow a rescue op if there's no chance of success. You can see it in his face that he was disappointed that Sam did not support his case.

And kinda off topic, but what a first day it turned out for Sam. Welcome to reality.

And Ronon/Teyla just about made me squee....

Is there a thread or a website that features fan written alternate episodes for Atlantis Season Four?

[atlantis_babe34]

^^^

S4

Spoiler:

john has a brother?! how did i miss that?!

[Southern Red]

Actually i think many men who enter the army are semi naive - in regards of their future profession. No matter what type (branch? how do you call that in English guys?) of army you choose you are trained for one purpose only - to kill the enemy. And yes, you are trained to believe you are dead the minute you step on the battlefield.

Army does aim to develop that sense of belonging in someone. You are trained to stick to your team, defend them, go where they go. Since that is something what John needs - belonging - that aspect of army particularly suits his personality.

As for war and battle experience... I don't know about being taken trough burnt villages, but I think John does have considerable battle experience. His rank was Major when we "met" him in "The Rising" after all. He couldn't gain that rank without spending time in actual battle and seeing victims of war doesn't come close to being in the line of fire and seeing people being killed or wounded, which I don't think Elizabeth could have seen. Okay, maybe she could in some extreme situation. But John has seen more of that, and more so, he killed people. That's something that leaves a mark on you, no matter how well trained you are. IMO, he could have more mental problems due to his battlefield experience.

I have to correct a couple of things. I'm not sure military personnel here are trained to think they are dead when they step on the battlefield. I'll ask my Marine when he gets home. LOL. I do know that they are trained to "make the other guy die for his country before he makes you die for yours." A little paraphrase of Patton there.

It is very possible, especially in the Air Force to get to Major and beyond without any combat experience. It depends on your job. I have a pilot friend who's a Lt. Col and has probably never seen a dead body. LOL. John, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be the typical pilot. He knows too much about hand to hand combat and appears to have some extra training. I hope they bring that out at some point. The stuff about leaving no man behind is universal in all branches of the military. My husband loves the way they collect the dog tags. Though you don't take both of them. Duh. That's for identifying the bodies later.

Hopefully in OUTCAST

Spoiler:

the writers would deliver what they promised about John's background, so we know what made him the way he is. Though we are given bits and pieces of it, there's still a lot of stuff that we don't know about him. Does anybody know if his father and brother are in the military also?

And it's a bit late, but REUNION:

Spoiler:

I like that John is still focused on rescuing Elizabeth and I would have liked him to just go ahead and do so, even without Sam's, or the IOA's approval. I really expected him to go into a full blown argument with Sam about it, like the way he did with Elizabeth in Rising, about rescuing Sumner. But he didn't, and it's probably because Sam said the same things Elizabeth said, that she won't allow a rescue op if there's no chance of success. You can see it in his face that he was disappointed that Sam did not support his case.

And kinda off topic, but what a first day it turned out for Sam. Welcome to reality.

And Ronon/Teyla just about made me squee....

Is there a thread or a website that features fan written alternate episodes for Atlantis Season Four?

I may be experiencing a terminal case of wishful thinking but in Reunion

Spoiler:

I am hoping that John is just going through the motions with asking permission of Carter and the IOA so he can say he exhausted all resources later when he makes his daring rescue. Smart writers would have him devising a master plan behind the scenes...oh wait. Sigh.

^^^

S4

Spoiler:

john has a brother?! how did i miss that?!

Spoiler alert. Check this out: http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/414.shtml

[Carter-SG-1]

Iirc, the only suicide mission John has ever been on was at the end of Seige 2,
................................................
I remember Melyanna making the very valid point that Elizabeth had likely seen more of the effects of war than John had, during her negotiation work. John's life as a pilot was on base and in the plane; Elizabeth would have been transported by car through villages strewn with bodies to get to the embassy. So in regards to seeing certain aspects of war which could cause mind problems, Elizabeth wins.

dunno about these points you keep trying to make - I think Anuna might be on to sth -

i.e. - Suicidal Sheppard point - siege was not the only situation where he exhibited this sort of behaviour - what about Progeny - staying behind knowing for sure you are going to die sounds suicidal to me...

And as a chopper pilot Sheppard would have seen more then his share of gruesome up-close-and-personal images of destruction and death... more so than a diplomat - negotiations rarely take place on the battlefront... except in films

just my two pennies worth - i'll be quiet now

*back to lurker mode*

[justhere1971]

dunno about these points you keep trying to make - I think Anuna might be on to sth -

i.e. - Suicidal Sheppard point - siege was not the only situation where he exhibited this sort of behaviour - what about Progeny - staying behind knowing for sure you are going to die sounds suicidal to me...

And as a chopper pilot Sheppard would have seen more then his share of gruesome up-close-and-personal images of destruction and death... more so than a diplomat - negotiations rarely take place on the battlefront... except in films

just my two pennies worth - i'll be quiet now

*back to lurker mode*

I am not SL -- but I the way I see this is, staying behind to defend your country/men/base is not suicidal. That has a negative connotation. It's sacrificing himself. He might be better prepared or to jump into the front line, because he's been trained in combat, but that doesn't make him suicidal. If no one "volunteered" to stay behind, many missions would fail. He's trying to protect what's his responsibility. Think of a mother trying to save a drowning child - she'd rather die than to let her child die. That's not suicidal, that's sacrifice.

Just my 2c. Don't go back to lurking mode -- I for one would like to hear all ideas/thought -- discussion is fun .. that's the way at least I learn things.

[Blower'sGate]

OMG! FCOL!!!! Will you guys stop with the suicidal thing? lol I can't take it anymore! Seriously!

I never said Shep was suicidal, Anuna , sadly, was too tired to get what I had posted the first time and she misinterpreted my point. I said Sheppard wouldn't die like Romeo if Elizabeth were to die like Juliet? Do you guys get it? It means, Sheppard is a grown man and not some emo teenager ready to committ suicide if Lizzie dies ( even if she isn't really dead but just asleep !!! )

Anyway, SL is right. End of story, LOL! *nods*

[Carter-SG-1]

I am not SL -- but I the way I see this is, staying behind to defend your country/men/base is not suicidal. That has a negative connotation. It's sacrificing himself. He might be better prepared or to jump into the front line, because he's been trained in combat, but that doesn't make him suicidal. If no one "volunteered" to stay behind, many missions would fail. He's trying to protect what's his responsibility. Think of a mother trying to save a drowning child - she'd rather die than to let her child die. That's not suicidal, that's sacrifice.

Just my 2c. Don't go back to lurking mode -- I for one would like to hear all ideas/thought -- discussion is fun .. that's the way at least I learn things.

you are right - suicidal is definitely not a good term to describe him... how about "fiercely protective mother hen" ?

and LOL at the idea of "John and Elizabeth as Romeo and Juliet" - what an oxymoron