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**hopalong** · 28 May 2006, 03:36 AM

Bugger, the formatting post icons aren't working on Dad's puter again.

Anyway, my thoughts on 'The Lost Boys' (warning, this will end up being a semi discussion of 'The Hive' as well. I saw both eps within hours of each other, so they tend to run together in my memories. Sorry if I'm jumping the gun.)

Spoiler:

Okay, this was more of a "Thoughts from 'The Hive'." It's a little premature. Sorry.

**true_romance** · 28 May 2006, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by hopalong

Bugger, the formatting post icons aren't working on Dad's puter again.

Anyway, my thoughts on 'The Lost Boys' (warning, this will end up being a semi discussion of 'The Hive' as well. I saw both eps within hours of each other, so they tend to run together in my memories. Sorry if I'm jumping the gun.)

Spoiler:

Okay, this was more of a "Thoughts from 'The Hive'." It's a little premature. Sorry.

Don't worry hopalong I forgive you. lol. Cause I agree with you on what you are saying and I love the fact that even though Caldwell has a bit of a strop on him cause he wanted Sheppards job that he still is a secret sparkey himself.

**Bama** · 28 May 2006, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Ronnikins

I think so far we've got: Lorne, Caldwell, Rodney, Beckett, Ford and maybe Chuck?

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here about having an ensemble cast. As mentioned before having only two main stars, well, you can only ship them together as in TXF (unless you included Skinner), Moonlighting and Remington Steele. With an ensemble cast it gets far more complicated as evidenced by all the different ships that have sprung up in fandom. This is why, in my mind, Sparky is not a certain thing. I can see TPTB playing around with different combinations until they settle for one or maybe two canon ships. Which ones would be canon only time will tell. It's not, unfortunately, necessarily the ones which have the most chemistry. I'm basing this on other ensemble shows I've seen, most notably BSG and CSI.

Spoiler:

I, too, would like to see all the personal transitions the two will go through on the journey to discovering each other and I would like my Sparky wish to get granted. Hey Fairy Godmother, are you listening? We've been good little shippers, haven't we?

I get what you're saying Ron. I don't make a habit of shipping for ensembles myself because they do like to confuse things. However, this one is just too lovely to resist. I think with ensembles there are some advantages with shipping though too. The writers aren't under pressure to constantly build a storyline with UST undertones. They can 'rest' UST and relationship building more often which can lead to broader, long-term exploration.

Ensembles can make it tougher in some ways but if the writers will give it a direction EARLY ON (and I think the SGA writers have done so with S/W) then it makes it easier to build as things go along. Sparky isn't out of left field. The writers have acknowledged the possibility of 'more'. Yes, they've also put out red herrings and made the audience go 'Eh? This one?' with one other one but with Sparky it's different in that they've BACKED IT UP with evidence that the two characters in question are indeed building a strong relationship. It all goes back to foundation imo.

And I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who sees Grissom and Catherine so very easily and again, it's based on some of the same reasons I see Sparky. Relationships really do go back to want to. I refuse to ship for CSI in any big way because I made a pledge to myself after XF. However, I caught a few episodes and it didn't take me long to peg that one.

**Melyanna** · 28 May 2006, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Ronnikins

I think so far we've got: Lorne, Caldwell, Rodney, Beckett, Ford and maybe Chuck?

With Shep/Teyla there was... Bates. That's pretty much it, and now even he's gone. Even that can be taken as something other than proof of a romantic connection, though.

Originally posted by Ronnikins

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here about having an ensemble cast. As mentioned before having only two main stars, well, you can only ship them together as in TXF (unless you included Skinner), Moonlighting and Remington Steele. With an ensemble cast it gets far more complicated as evidenced by all the different ships that have sprung up in fandom. This is why, in my mind, Sparky is not a certain thing. I can see TPTB playing around with different combinations until they settle for one or maybe two canon ships. Which ones would be canon only time will tell. It's not, unfortunately, necessarily the ones which have the most chemistry. I'm basing this on other ensemble shows I've seen, most notably BSG and CSI.

Spoiler:

I, too, would like to see all the personal transitions the two will go through on the journey to discovering each other and I would like my Sparky wish to get granted. Hey Fairy Godmother, are you listening? We've been good little shippers, haven't we?

It gets more complicated, yes, but at the same time, it's easier to have an established relationship on a show with a lot of characters than on one with a few. Babylon 5 did it beautifully, and I think much of the reason that Sheridan/Delenn worked so well (despite a lack of chemistry, by the way) was that there were about ten other characters in the show, so the romance didn't have to be a big deal. Sheridan and Delenn were also well established as important characters on their own, which is another important part of writing a relationship. Delenn was never, ever just there for "playful sexual tension."

That's why I think Sheppard/Weir works. They're strong individuals on their own, and a romance wouldn't detract from their independent roles.

**A.L.** · 28 May 2006, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by hopalong

Bugger, the formatting post icons aren't working on Dad's puter again.

Anyway, my thoughts on 'The Lost Boys' (warning, this will end up being a semi discussion of 'The Hive' as well. I saw both eps within hours of each other, so they tend to run together in my memories. Sorry if I'm jumping the gun.)

Spoiler:

Okay, this was more of a "Thoughts from 'The Hive'." It's a little premature. Sorry.

I don't think you've jumped the gun. It seems to me no one else is going to post on The Lost Boys discussion, we've said all there is to be said so let's move right along to The Hive.

As I said, I liked TLB better than The Hive. I thought The Hive was a bit of a let down after that long three month wait we had here in the US. However, that said, I still liked The Hive because

Spoiler:

Originally posted by Melyanna

That's why I think Sheppard/Weir works. They're strong individuals on their own, and a romance wouldn't detract from their independent roles.

Here! Here!

AL

**Southern Red** · 28 May 2006, 10:21 AM

Okay, I'm going to blurt all this out in a gush because once again some of us are on sorta the same wavelength. You've mentioned how the writers are developing the Sparky relationship and how so many people see it but with Sheyla aside from Bates, who is gone BTW, we get *crickets and cicadas chirping, tree frogs and hoot owls* In other words...nothing. I've been wonderin".

Reporters and fans keep asking JF and TH about S/W and UST. Why don't the actors question them back? Why not say "where do you get that idea?" Instead we get the following:
1. Joe flat out says UST doesn't exits with E but does with T because it's written. Let's analyze: It's written in his script, directed, and in his mind when he's acting. Then why doesn't it show? Editing.

For example in the descriptions of the Conversion commentary I've read he comments that the

Spoiler:

It sounds like those scenes were edited on purpose to allow for "eye of the beholder" ship. That really didn't make sense. He implied that they shot the scenes with it looking like the romance was left open and that she wasn't as shocked by his advance as the final cut showed. He seemed surprised that the ambiguity was lacking.

If you listen to all the commentaries, you'll frequently note that the actors don't appear to have seen the finished product. They have a completely different perspective. And going back to darling Joe, this is just a job he has been hired to do. They told him T would be his love interest and haven't told him any different. He's said he doesn't think much beyond the obvious so he must be genuinely puzzled by the Sparky questions as he has no idea what's going on with E when he's not in a scene with her. He's also a big tease and likes to tell fans what they want to hear.

2. Torri jokes about Sparky. She loves her shipper girls but doesn't take it seriously. Her character description says she is tied up in her leadership role and she doesn't see a romance as being feasible. Actually in the German interview, Joe said essentially the same and Torri was at her jokiest.*Does anyone have a good translation of that?* They both see romance as being inappropriate with the other because it's in their job description. Torri doesn't do as many cons as Joe, so we haven't gotten a lot from her lately.

So in reality we have a large growing group of fans all over the world who on separate occasions have discovered Sparky from watching the show. How can such a strange thing happen if it's not written, acted or directed? That takes us back to editing.They do multiple takes from different angles with different focuses. For example if you only watch Sparky vids, well of course you see it. There are vids that show the sweet side, the fun side, the angsty side, her POV, his POV...you name it. Editing

Just one example: The Tower

Spoiler:

Because at the very least they are trying the ship out. They publicized S2 by showing 2 certain scenes with J and E. Why? They are testing the ship. Sparky is not a mass hallucination. They are trying it out by editing scenes in a certain way.

Now warning... S3 may go a different way. So it's very important that we keep voicing our opinion but not to engage, insult or ridicule the Sheylas beyond pointing out the obvious. Red herrings are usually the most obvious at first glance. You can't miss them. They are the guy standing over the body with the bloody knife, the ex-wife who threatens to kill her husband the day before he dies mysteriously. It has yet to be determined how this will all end. One thing for certain, they are not going to reveal their plans and they may change their minds several times. Flying anvils fly by, hit you and go away. We've gotten very little of that with Sparky. Maybe we don't want Joe and Torri to suddenly start faking romantic interest. We don't want Sparky to look like 2 people who are trying too hard. And I for one will leave this forum forever if we start needing those "special glasses" that turn a scene into something shippy.

Gosh, sorry for the rant upchuck. Especially since it probably makes little sense. Summary: there will be sparky in S3, there will be moments of agony in S3 and there will be squee worthy moments in S3. Let's just relax and have fun. *taking my own advice* Phew!

**Bama** · 28 May 2006, 11:55 AM

[QUOTE=Southern Red]Okay, I'm going to blurt all this out in a gush because once again some of us are on sorta the same wavelength. You've mentioned how the writers are developing the Sparky relationship and how so many people see it but with Sheyla aside from Bates, who is gone BTW, we get *crickets and cicadas chirping, tree frogs and hoot owls* In other words...nothing. I've been wonderin".

This 'third person shipping' tactic has been done before and it works well if not overdone. I like how the SGA writers have just allowed comments to be inserted here and there by fellow crew members thus far rather than have some guest space visitor of the week come out and ask abruptly: "Do you two have a thing going?" I think it's more meaningful when those that interact and know the ship pair in question personally begin to notice there's something a bit 'more' between the two. I do expect as things move along that we may see a space guest prod them in some sweeps episode.

Reporters and fans keep asking JF and TH about S/W and UST. Why don't the actors question them back? Why not say "where do you get that idea?" Instead we get the following:
1. Joe flat out says UST doesn't exits with E but does with T because it's written. Let's analyze: It's written in his script, directed, and in his mind when he's acting. Then why doesn't it show? Editing.

LOL! I love the little actor denial games these folks try to play with fans. Smoke and mirrors. LOL. OK Joe. What-ever. You know better. Such ridiculous denial reminds me of my five year old with the cookie crumb evidence on his mouth saying "I promise Mommy, I didn't eat one." LOL!! Maybe Joe needs to start winking toward the camera to cue us clueless audience members whenever one of these 'UST' scenes with Teyla is about to begin so we'll all know next time. *snort*

For example in the descriptions of the Conversion commentary I've read he comments that the

Spoiler:

It sounds like those scenes were edited on purpose to allow for "eye of the beholder" ship. That really didn't make sense. He implied that they shot the scenes with it looking like the romance was left open and that she wasn't as shocked by his advance as the final cut showed. He seemed surprised that the ambiguity was lacking.

Maybe it shows that the producers, directors, editors, and writers of SGA all have some sense. *winkers* I don't buy it a second. I think Joe knows exactly what flirting is and he knows when he's doing it on screen. He is a seasoned veteran actor as is Torri. They aren't younguns trying to dip their foot into 'new UST waters'. They feel the chem they're putting out together and they play it up. All those flirty winks on the desk with his butt polishing it and those little teasing scenes on the balcony. Joe is no dummy. The man is playing the denial game and he's playin it well.

If you listen to all the commentaries, you'll frequently note that the actors don't appear to have seen the finished product. They have a completely different perspective. And going back to darling Joe, this is just a job he has been hired to do. They told him T would be his love interest and haven't told him any different. He's said he doesn't think much beyond the obvious so he must be genuinely puzzled by the Sparky questions as he has no idea what's going on with E when he's not in a scene with her. He's also a big tease and likes to tell fans what they want to hear.

I say you can't tell me he doesn't sense it. Lip licks..winks...etc..etc..
The man knows what he's doing.

2. Torri jokes about Sparky. She loves her shipper girls but doesn't take it seriously. Her character description says she is tied up in her leadership role and she doesn't see a romance as being feasible. Actually in the German interview, Joe said essentially the same and Torri was at her jokiest.*Does anyone have a good translation of that?* They both see romance as being inappropriate with the other because it's in their job description. Torri doesn't do as many cons as Joe, so we haven't gotten a lot from her lately.

Just 'her' version or way of denial. They both 'feel' it with their characters. Editing can only do so much.

**SGLAB** · 28 May 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Melyanna

With Shep/Teyla there was... Bates. That's pretty much it, and now even he's gone. Even that can be taken as something other than proof of a romantic connection, though.

On the one hand when I first heard some of his comments it never occurred to me that I was suppose to infer SHep/Teyla ship. As the season progressed and I realized that was basically all he was being used for it irritated me because he became a one note character. Bad mouth Teyla and Shep comes to her defense. Got boring after awhile.

But these other characters when it came to SHep/Weir are more interesting and have more use than to simply point out ship.

Originally posted by Melyanna

It gets more complicated, yes, but at the same time, it's easier to have an established relationship on a show with a lot of characters than on one with a few. Babylon 5 did it beautifully, and I think much of the reason that Sheridan/Delenn worked so well (despite a lack of chemistry, by the way) was that there were about ten other characters in the show, so the romance didn't have to be a big deal. Sheridan and Delenn were also well established as important characters on their own, which is another important part of writing a relationship. Delenn was never, ever just there for "playful sexual tension."

That's why I think Sheppard/Weir works. They're strong individuals on their own, and a romance wouldn't detract from their independent roles.

I love Delenn. The writters for Atlantis still need to work on showing us more of Elizabeth doing what she does imo. But yes there is great potential here for Shep/Weir to work in a similar way.

One of the things I think B5 did that helped to handle such a large cast was not have all of them on every ep. The way Atlantis is set up it seems leaving out a character here and there every week doesn't work. Grace Under Pressure

Spoiler:

*Pouts, because she has to wait until Tuesday before she can start s5 of B5

*

I've been thinking about this after someone mentioned Katherine Hepburn whom I love. I love her because her characters were not like the usual type shown during the 30's and 40's. Meaning brainless or women who were likely to threaten to give people a "knuckle sandwich" as I refer to it. Nope, Katherine Hepburn played women who were smart, witty, and assertive. I'm reminded of a quote used by someone in here awhile ago. I think it was describing a diplomat. Something like someone who could insult you and make it look like a compliment. That I think fits Katherine Hepburn's characters and I think it fits Elizabeth quite well.

**lissa1000** · 28 May 2006, 01:58 PM

There seemed to be a lot of shippy scenes for all the various pairings in s2. As stupid as it sounds, maybe tptb wanted to see which couples the fans took to. It could be that tptb are just throwing in as many flirting and kissing scenes as possible because they think "female fans like that, right?" It would be better if they had set couples in mind and sprinkled that in from time to time. It's hard for me to ship a couple if one or both of the characters are flirting or kissing someone else every other episode. I think they really messed up the ships this season. I hope they have a plan for s3.

**A.L.** · 28 May 2006, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by lissa1000

There seemed to be a lot of shippy scenes for all the various pairings in s2. As stupid as it sounds, maybe tptb wanted to see which couples the fans took to. It could be that tptb are just throwing in as many flirting and kissing scenes as possible because they think "female fans like that, right?" It would be better if they had set couples in mind and sprinkled that in from time to time. It's hard for me to ship a couple if one or both of the characters are flirting or kissing someone else every other episode. I think they really messed up the ships this season. I hope they have a plan for s3.

I hear that's the plan. More characterization. More developing relationships (though didn't didn't specify who and how). Sounds like they have a plan. Let's hope it's a good one.

I'm sorry to say that if things don't go well in my opinion I would have to move on. I wouldn't begrudge anyone else getting the ship they want but that doesn't mean I could stand to watch it myself. As I've said before, I'd rather have no 'ship than what I would see as the wrong ship.

Oh to be a multi-shipper.

Don't think that'll ever happen.

*holds up picket sign and marches in a circle chanting:*
MORE SPARKY SQUEE IN SEASON THREE!!

AL

**Trialia** · 28 May 2006, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Bama

Originally posted by Southern Red

2. Torri jokes about Sparky. She loves her shipper girls but doesn't take it seriously. Her character description says she is tied up in her leadership role and she doesn't see a romance as being feasible. Actually in the German interview, Joe said essentially the same and Torri was at her jokiest.*Does anyone have a good translation of that?* They both see romance as being inappropriate with the other because it's in their job description. Torri doesn't do as many cons as Joe, so we haven't gotten a lot from her lately.

Just 'her' version or way of denial. They both 'feel' it with their characters. Editing can only do so much.

I don't think it's really denial on Torri's part, as when she visited the board I asked her and she said she likes to tease the 'shippers... "keep 'em guessing" was the phrase she used. That, I like. Joe's blatant denial of our 'ship... pfft!

New chapter to that drabble challenge for stagesoflove below

Spoiler:

**Luz** · 28 May 2006, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Southern Red

And I for one will leave this forum forever if we start needing those "special glasses" that turn a scene into something shippy.

I'm with you there, the moment i feel like my ship is so absent that i need to twist things around in convoluted ways, that's the moment i'll know there is nothing to look for. I've lived with having to give up hope for ships just because i realised that tptb were definitely not going there, i.e Chen/Carter from E.R, Ray/Neela - E.R, Chloe/Clark (definitely not gonna happen, and i don't watch the show anymore anyway), Doggett/Scully (although i was a M/S shipper too). Fortunately i've always been able to tell the difference between what i'd like to see happenning and what's really happenning.

Originally posted by Bama

All those flirty winks on the desk with his butt polishing it and those little teasing scenes on the balcony. Joe is no dummy. The man is playing the denial game and he's playin it well.

I don't know about Joe, but it sure as hell seems someone there loves us

, what with all the sparky cutesy. I'd like to think the flirty looks and the special tone they use with eachother, are more a matter of being in character. And of characters taking over, and going places they go naturally on an unscripted way. 'Cause sparky for me has the seal of spontaneity, it feels unplanned, fresh, it's blossoming at it's own not rushed pace.

**SallyLizzie** · 28 May 2006, 03:00 PM

I don't see Sheyla as the 'wrong ship'; I just don't see it. Like I don't see Weir/Kav

Flyby post for a rec;

Shades of Amber

ETA: Light and Shadow Play has been updated.

**A.L.** · 28 May 2006, 03:45 PM

So in an attempt to get out of my comfort zone and see what else it out there I went about and checked out some other threads in the GateWorld forum. *twitch* *shudder* It's scary out there sometimes. I think I'll wait and regain my strength before trying that one again. *twitch*

*scurries off to read the most recent fic recs and HAPPY!DANCES because Shadow Play was updated*

I need some Sparky goodness to calm my nerves.

AL

**grasshopper** · 28 May 2006, 04:56 PM

Drops out of lukerdom again, with a long post. But since I only post once in a full moon, I can be a little long-winded right?

I just wanted to pipe in with the UST/RST, and ensemble cast issues.
I think that when a show is built around a ship (the dreaded Moonlighting comparison) it doesn’t work to actually get the couple together.

But on some shows RST has worked, let me give you three: Bablyon 5, Farscape, and Lost World. Now the first one I won’t comment on, because Mel is much better on expressing how well that show did their primary ship (sans chemistry).

Farscape did a great job with two actors that had tons of chemistry (and still do, which is why I simply will not ship Daniel with Vala, stupid I know). They set them up, they actually had sex the first season; but that didn’t end the tension. Even them being a “couple” never really ended the tension nor did the RST become boring, why? It worked, because they had darn fine writers, who did not write the show as ship, but the ship as part of the whole story. Ship blended with the story arcs. I did not always like the storylines, or where they took the characters (beginning of season 4 anyone?), but I trusted the writers on that show more than any other do it right. They had a vision and a plan; the same can be said with B5, vision and plan.

Lost World, was a little gem of a show that often gets overlooked, but that I truly adore. They had two ships, Veronica/Malone, and my favorite Roxton/Marguerite. R/M’s relationship (both of them really) was built into the show, not the other way around. Although there were funding issues so we never got a 4th season, the guys in charge of the show did a write up to say where they had been planning on going with the storylines, and the thing you get from it was that the relationships were tied to the main story (the mystery of the Plateau). And that the writters (say it with me) had a plan on where they were going with the show.

What do all three of these shows have in common? They had large casts and most importantly writers and show runners that had a plan on where they were taking the show. I am sure they had episodes where they said “Hey wouldn’t it be cool if…”, but on the whole they planned the where/how/why’s of their shows in advance. I think that is where a lot of sci-fi (and other) shows screw up, not only the relationships, but their shows in general. And I am not sure if the Atlantis people are big planners, which is why I worry about hitching my hopes to a couple. Because let’s be honest, if they had planned, and been willing to take a chance, Jack and Sam could have been together years ago, without ticking off a large portion of the fan base.

The other thing they have in common is that their characters were NOT defined by their ship. Each character stood on their own as interesting outside their "other half." The Stargate folks have a bad track record of ditching character growth for ship. The other shows I mentioned, blended it all.

I hope they go with Sparky, I think the show could support them as a couple and it not be boring, but they simply cannot go at it harem-scarem or drag it out for 9 seasons. I am just not a fan of never ending UST. Most of what Sparky is built on, would not have to end were they to become an actual couple (flirting, banter, eye lovin’), which is what makes this ship perfect for going the RST angle. But the TPTB have to make a decision and plan for it. I can only hope they do!

(On a side note, the other thing those three shows (4 including Atlantis) have in common is leading men named John. If anyone could tell me how you make those lovely banners, I need to make one with Lord John Roxton, John Crichton and John Shepherd on it.)

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