Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Erised]

I hate that such a horrible episode got such a sweet sparky scene, the ONLY balcony scene of the season if I remember correctly... grrrr

Anyone else felt like there was more to it? But of course, err... other things took all the 40 minutes..

[SallyLizzie]

I think They needed a way to 'de-brief' the episode and show what happened as a result. They chose to do this through John and Elizabeth, in Atlantis. Tho I don't favour these type of endings, I do think they would have been better finishing the episode off-world and not revisiting Atlantis. Or even better, held the story for a two parter as it had so much potential mythos-wise. Hopefully, we'll get to re-visit the Tower at some point.

[Luz]

Funny, bc I recall plenty of shippers here wanting near-kisses and jealousy scenes. Isn't that why a lot of us ae looking forward to Irresistable

This is where it all gets muddled, i've listened to plenty of shippers (both Sparky, and sheyla shippers) saying they don't want jealousy, and near kisses, who decides which plenty is the bigger portion?.
Personally i hate those interrupted kisses, they almost did it, but didn't in the end (i hate that friggin' bee ). And i'm not into jealousy scenes precisely because they're never well done, and the whole deal ends up resembling a soap.
so if tptb listen to us, and see some of us claiming for jealousy and some others claiming for no jealousy, they'll come to the conclusion that we don't know what we want. Even more so when they bring someone (think Pete, Jag fans think Renee or Mic, XF fans think Fowley) and we all turn against them for turning the show into a soap with all that useless jealous angst.
No wonder they sometimes seem to be a bit not too amicable with shippers.

Part of me hopes TPTB don't listen to us and go at their own pace. IMO, the ship will work better when they're ready to commit rather than writing it bc of fan pressure. As Luz said, "the characters themselves will show them the way when they're ready for something more."

I hope so too, most of the times when they screw things up is because they're so confused by our signals. They don't bring RST because they have seen before how fast fans get bored after a ship is resolved.
So they find outrageous ways of trying to keep the tension alive for years and years, until the moment when it doesn't matter if the ratings go down because they're already going down, but it doesn't matter if the ship is resolved either because the people that cared about left, or they are so jaded they don't care about anymore. And the fans that didn't care for the ship got mad and left anyway because tptb ruined the show when they were bussy playing with the shippers. End result, they tried to please everyone and got everyone pissed.
Lesson learned, don't try to please everyone, don't force the characters into anything. If there'll be ship then let it be, don't write for it, don't create ludicrous situations to showcase the ship, let it be.

[stubadingdong]

I On the good side, on SGA tptb have done really well. If the technique they are employing is to not mess with the ship, not writing scenes with the express purpose of pushing a ship, and just leaving the for now friendshippy relationship between Sheppard and Weir very well alone, so that it can go where the characters want to go, freely, with no presure. I think they're on the right track, the characters themselves will show them the way when they're ready for something more.

Having just come from the Enterprise fandom, I can say that there is still PLENTY for TPTB to screw up. I was an avid Trip/T'Pol shipper. TPTB saw the chemistry and decided to go for that pairing. And they did such a disservice to the characters. They absolutely annihilated them both.

My point is this: Even though the characters are kind of coming to life on their own doesn't necessarily mean the writers will be able to live up to that. As much as I love the Shep/Weir ship, I think the writers had better leave well enough alone for a while. Once bitten...

[SallyLizzie]

As much as I love the Shep/Weir ship, I think the writers had better leave well enough alone for a while. Once bitten...

Why do we make mistakes, if not to learn from them?

[Erised]

I hope so too, most of the times when they screw things up is because they're so confused by our signals. They don't bring RST because they have seen before how fast fans get bored after a ship is resolved.
So they find outrageous ways of trying to keep the tension alive for years and years, until the moment when it doesn't matter if the ratings go down because they're already going down, but it doesn't matter if the ship is resolved either because the people that cared about left, or they are so jaded they don't care about anymore. And the fans that didn't care for the ship got mad and left anyway because tptb ruined the show when they were bussy playing with the shippers. End result, they tried to please everyone and got everyone pissed.
Lesson learned, don't try to please everyone, don't force the characters into anything. If there'll be ship then let it be, don't write for it, don't create ludicrous situations to showcase the ship, let it be.

Exactly!!! This ship started when they were pushing sheyla... People saw the potential and chemestry and just the cuteness of the scenes where they are together. Really, they don't need to write the ship into episodes to the point where it's clear that they're saying "See? we've changed out minds! We're going with sparky now! See?? See??" And besides, we are not ready for very shippy scenes.. Neither of them are developed enough, and IMO, don't know too much about each other..

Spoiler:

and most of the spoilers from season 3 sound good so far ..

[Melyanna]

I think They needed a way to 'de-brief' the episode and show what happened as a result. They chose to do this through John and Elizabeth, in Atlantis. Tho I don't favour these type of endings, I do think they would have been better finishing the episode off-world and not revisiting Atlantis. Or even better, held the story for a two parter as it had so much potential mythos-wise. Hopefully, we'll get to re-visit the Tower at some point.

Oddly, the whole cheerleader thing wasn't what I hated most about The Tower.

Spoiler:

At the end of the day, the heroes had walked in and taken whatever they wanted, removed the sitting government, and the people were all happy about this. It's just an incredibly patronizing look at a "less civilized" group of people, and something that I thought TPTB had moved beyond a long time ago. As much as I liked seeing them out on the balcony again, my problems with the final scene of the episode have a lot more to do with how flippantly Elizabeth treats what amounts to small-scale imperialism than anything about the girl.

...Er, yeah, this episode taps my pent-up liberal rage on so many levels.

[SallyLizzie]

And besides, we are not ready for very shippy scenes..

So when do you (general) think we wil be? When I first noticed JohnElizabeth I said that I thought we should get definate signs season 3-4. Season 5 would be pushing it but could still be done without having dragged the ship too long. Now we're at season 3 and feeling it's too soon. Do you think one more season od development will suffice or will be waiting till seasons 5+ and will that be too late?

Neither of them are developed enough, and IMO, don't know too much about each other..

I'm inclined to agree. Most of what Elizabeth knows about John has come from a file. Tho they've found out certain characteristics about each other (bravory, courage, loyalty, etc) they know little personal information on each other.

So what do they know?

John reads Russian literacy, is Mensa qualified, loves football and nobody thought he'd get higher than Captain.

Elizabeth is a dog person (I assume he's noticed the picture on her desk), doesn't really like football, and is used to falling asleep to the sound of the ocean.

[Southern Red]

So when do you (general) think we wil be? When I first noticed JohnElizabeth I said that I thought we should get definate signs season 3-4. Season 5 would be pushing it but could still be done without having dragged the ship too long. Now we're at season 3 and feeling it's too soon. Do you think one more season od development will suffice or will be waiting till seasons 5+ and will that be too late?


I'm inclined to agree. Most of what Elizabeth knows about John has come from a file. Tho they've found out certain characteristics about each other (bravory, courage, loyalty, etc) they know little personal information on each other.

So what do they know?

John reads Russian literacy, is Mensa qualified, loves football and nobody thought he'd get higher than Captain.

Elizabeth is a dog person (I assume he's noticed the picture on her desk), doesn't really like football, and is used to falling asleep to the sound of the ocean.

All that is what we know. We can assume that John and Elizabeth know more since they spend so much time together. It would be impossible for them to have worked so closely for over 2 years and not get to know each other better. Just the way they know what the other is going to say so much attests to that. All shippiness aside, the way they are so comfortable together indicates a connection beyond just the superficial. That said. It sure would be nice if we could learn a little more about them.

And when will we be ready for their relationship to progress? I can't see setting a timeframe, but I think when it happens we'll know. No, seriously, I think it will sneak up on us,

Spoiler:

The hug was a big surprise and completely sent Sparky in a new direction.

And at exactly the right time we'll get more. By the end of S3 I think we should know if there will continue to be development of Sparky. Otherwise, a lot of fans will wander off.

[Luz]

So when do you (general) think we wil be? When I first noticed JohnElizabeth I said that I thought we should get definate signs season 3-4. Season 5 would be pushing it but could still be done without having dragged the ship too long. Now we're at season 3 and feeling it's too soon. Do you think one more season od development will suffice or will be waiting till seasons 5+ and will that be too late?

This is a subject that's not so clear, we all have different views of how soon is too soon, or how late is too late. For me season three would be way too soon, the characters certainly care about eachother, and there's some sort of unexplored attraction. But they've not gotten to that point, what point?, the one where it feels like *this* is the moment. I honestly don't know how to explain myself here, to me it isn't even the writers the ones that decide when is the right point. But that's because as a reader i've always felt that writers don't decide the fate of the characters, but the characters do it by themselves. The problem with t.v is that contrary to what book writers do most of the time anyway (which is follow their instinct when they feel like the characters want to go somewhere else), t.v writers 'sin' with their arrogance by thinking the characters are theirs and so they'll do as they're 'told'.
I think S/W is an example of the writers wanting to go somewhere, and the characters want to go somewhere else. And again i think i've lost sight of what the point of this post was, lol.

[Erised]

So when do you (general) think we wil be? When I first noticed JohnElizabeth I said that I thought we should get definate signs season 3-4. Season 5 would be pushing it but could still be done without having dragged the ship too long. Now we're at season 3 and feeling it's too soon. Do you think one more season od development will suffice or will be waiting till seasons 5+ and will that be too late?

Yeah season 5+ would be a bit weird. I'm hoping that they will be developed this season... not fully, of course . But I'd like to know more about them. I want to know what makes Elizabeth, Elizabeth - why does she hate military so much? Does she disapprove of military so much that it prevents her from admitting her feelings for John to herself? And why does she have her specific morals and what does it take for her to change them (and she did change them, or at least acted like she did, but we did not get an explanation... only speculation). Then I'd like to know makes John, John. We know what he did in Afghanistan, but I'd like to see a flashback. Also, that scene in Intruder about Ford, has something similar happened before? Someone under his command went missing? Died? How did he react? (I'm trying to think of something else for John, but really he is so undeveloped that I have no idea what I'd like to see )
So IMO they will be ready after some development.

John reads Russian literacy, is Mensa qualified, loves football and nobody thought he'd get higher than Captain.

Elizabeth is a dog person (I assume he's noticed the picture on her desk), doesn't really like football, and is used to falling asleep to the sound of the ocean.

LOL.. exactly. They know so rediculously little about each other.. and even if they do know more, I haven't seen it on the screen and I'm not going to speculate ..

[Melyanna]

But I'd like to know more about them. I want to know what makes Elizabeth, Elizabeth - why does she hate military so much? Does she disapprove of military so much that it prevents her from admitting her feelings for John to herself?

I don't think it's quite fair to say she hates the military. Her position on the military has less to do with military force and more to do with the attitudes of some within the military that nuclear weapons will solve everything. From what we know, she believes in peaceful solutions rather than military force. What she said in Lost City was this: "I've decided that the best way to stop the proliferation of weapons is to try and end the need for them. So I'm going to be the voice of reason to whoever will listen."

As for her lobbying against government spending on the military, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Her career started around the time the Cold War ended, and suddenly a whole lot of money was being spent on the military that didn't make much sense, given that the enemy of the last several decades was no longer a threat. So it's not really a matter of her hating the military, but that she feels that the military can be rather excessive and single-minded.

I think the most accurate assessment is that she's willing to play hardball with whatever means necessary, but that she wants to exhaust all other options before using force.

[SallyLizzie]

All that is what we know. We can assume that John and Elizabeth know more since they spend so much time together. It would be impossible for them to have worked so closely for over 2 years and not get to know each other better. Just the way they know what the other is going to say so much attests to that. All shippiness aside, the way they are so comfortable together indicates a connection beyond just the superficial. That said. It sure would be nice if we could learn a little more about them.

So just bc I haven't seen them getting jiggy in a closet doesn't mean they aren't?

I hear what you're saying tho I have to disagree. I think there friendship is built on respect, not common interest. There hasn't been much time (especially in the last season) for socialising. I attribute their comfortness around each other to trust, and knowing what each other is going to say down to a strong professional relationship. I believe you can know each other very well professionally, but not know each other from a social stand point.

They know so rediculously little about each other.. and even if they do know more, I haven't seen it on the screen and I'm not going to speculate

Exactly, bc it's what we see on screen that's canon

Luz, I understand what you're saying. My best artwork came from letting lots of prep guide me to a final piece. When I've had an idea of what I wanted and tried to create it, it's felt forced and failed appallingly. We've already seen how well a ship with a forced feeling works

[Southern Red]

So just bc I haven't seen them getting jiggy in a closet doesn't mean they aren't?

I hear what you're saying tho I have to disagree. I think there friendship is built on respect, not common interest. There hasn't been much time (especially in the last season) for socialising. I attribute their comfortness around each other to trust, and knowing what each other is going to say down to a strong professional relationship. I believe you can know each other very well professionally, but not know each other from a social stand point.

Exactly, bc it's what we see on screen that's canon

I have to agree with you there. I didn't mean necessarily that they socialize much. I don't think anybody has any time for much of that. Though they'd all be nuts by now if they didn't blow off steam some how. But I think their knowledge of each other has come through their close professional relationship which has resulted in the trust between them. So essentially we're saying the same thing. I think. The way they make decisions and react in certain situations has given them intuitive knowledge of each other. And Elizabeth knows everything that's in John's service record. Which is a lot. He knows virtually nothing about her. She also knows exactly what he's been up to off world. Unless he writes incomplete mission reports. Which would be a really bad thing if Caldwell finds out. Or Landry. And now that I've lost the ability to write in complete sentences. I'll stop.

[Major_Moomin]

I'm going completely off our current topic here but I was watching The Long Goodbye just a minute ago and something grabbed my interest.

Spoiler:

During the scene with John and Teyla, where he convulses and his now himself (maybe). He asked why Teyla gave him the stunner if she didn't know it was him. Teyla replying that he would have shot Elizabeth either way.
As she walked away, he had a great pained look on his face, almost as though he's ashamed of the fact that he did shoot Elizabeth and that it pained him to do so.

I just thought I'd mention that.

Also liked the fact that

Spoiler:

Teyla was not fazed by the fact that she nearly killed John...kind of like "huh, what can you do?"

And on a side not - Hasn't Mitch Pileggi got huge ears! *LOL*