Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Melyanna]

Couple of weeks??

Oh, don't be such a drama queen. I've got three weeks before Christmas holidays, and in that time I have papers to write.

Yes! Very early... even tho betaing was very easy. It was gimme, gimme, read and devour, send back and say post it!

Well, you did help me untangle some sticky points.

Well I hope it could be valid in a year or two, in that it might be open for their relationship to progress to this, ie they haven't killed either off, or married them to folk to which they have NO chemistry. Even then...

I'm hoping it's still valid in terms of characterization, but I'm not expecting it to fit with the show's canon by then. *shrugs* Don't ask me why.

Hmmm, if I'm first prime of the W/S shippers, what could you be? Can we be joint first primes? I've got a fair complement of penguin flip-soldiers, training now in in Atlantis...

Arrghh! Penguins are in this thread!

I think we ought to go with flamingoes as thread mascot. And joint first primes works for me!

Oh and me too, as I have to nag Mel, and I need encouragement too...

Yes, more Sheppard pics we must have...

[astronomicalchick]

Oh, don't be such a drama queen. I've got three weeks before Christmas holidays, and in that time I have papers to write.

Drama queen?? Moi??

Well, you did help me untangle some sticky points. .

I don't remember any sticky points!

I'm hoping it's still valid in terms of characterization, but I'm not expecting it to fit with the show's canon by then. *shrugs* Don't ask me why..

Bah! Who cares about canon anyway? I enjoyed your story so much, I'm quite happy to have that as my Atlantis canon!

I think we ought to go with flamingoes as thread mascot. And joint first primes works for me!..

You have flamingoes I'll keep the penguins! Joint avian forces!

Yes, more Sheppard pics we must have...

uh-huh....

[shelsfc]

If Teyla's attracted to Sheppard, it's probably nothing more than the usual buxom beauty attracted to the alpha male. Cliché and boring. The early press on Atlantis was suggesting Sheppard/Teyla, but before the show aired they changed their tune about it.

I was quite drawn to Sheppard/Teyla in Rising, but after that it sort of seemed too forced. Then there was that W/S moment in 38 minutes and I was like "Oh...didn't see that coming...this could be interesting." And here I am...

[shelsfc]

Welcome to the flipside Shel...

*shouts*

Mel write some more! You hear that? You're converting people!

Why thank you very much for the welcome
(I'm a newbie again! )

Yes please Mel, do write more - I'm converted now, but what if I slip back? I need something to keep me on the flipside until I see the shippy eps!

[Major Fischer]

I was quite drawn to Sheppard/Teyla in Rising, but after that it sort of seemed too forced. Then there was that W/S moment in 38 minutes and I was like "Oh...didn't see that coming...this could be interesting." And here I am...

I have a long and complicated production theory that basically supposes that that scene in 38 Minutes was actually shot much later than the rest of the episode, probably about the same time as Poisoning the Well or Home. That would explain why the banter seems to match those episodes more than it does the episodes directly around 38 Minutes.

[Athenaktt]

I just saw "Hot Zone" and it was another good episode and i thoroughly enjoyed it. There could see more growth in Shep and Weir's relationship be it shippy or not. But it was nice to

Spoiler:

hear him call Weir Elizabeth instead of the usual Dr. Weir.

and a couple of times throughout the episode Shep and Weir getting in to disputes about the right courses of action to take. Maybe i'm reading between the lines, but as soon as Sheppard hears about the infection. His first thought is to go to the control room, but after some disagreements he remains in quarentine. But as soon as he hears one of the infected people is heading to the control room, he defies Weir's order and orders Bates to open the door. The thing that caught me the most was when Weir says "You're ranking military officer i can let you get infected," then he replies "I can't let you get infected."

Then after he defies her orders and goes to get hazmats suits...he askes Weir for Peterson(infected guys) location. Weir is obviously very reluctant to tell him. She has the look like she's sending him to his death again. Which of course happens again at the end of the episode...when Shep decides to explode a naquadah genarator in space with only 30 seconds to escape from the blasts radius.

There also was a couple scenes with other characters that stuck with me...especially when Sheppard was like "Weir once she's made a decision she sticks to it" and Teyla basically responds that "Weir isn't the only one like that" gives Shep a look.

Then there was that moment when Weir sorta scolds Sheppard for his comment of "boy we should have thought about that" Peter (the guy at the controls) gives this look after Weir walks away. I don't know what that look meant, but it caught my eye.

[Melyanna]

I'll have my thoughts on this episode in full sometime in the next couple days, but I want to append a couple caps to the last bit that Athena commented on. Not really spoilery, in my opinion, but they are from "Hot Zone".

Cap #1

Cap #2

[Athenaktt]

Now doesn't this woman look like shes gonna be sick becaue she sending someone she cares about to his possilbe death?

[Major Fischer]

That is certainly not a happy woman, but to be the voice of reason for the moment, I bet Elizabeth would look sick if she was sending anyone off to their potential death.

[Hatcheter]

Now doesn't this woman look like shes gonna be sick becaue she sending someone she cares about to his possilbe death?

Peronally,

Spoiler:

I thought she was mostly angry that he had so blatantly defied her, in front of her senior staff. But, I just re-watched that final scene in her office,and she didn't seem too angry with him afterwards. Had a faint smile at times, even. Still, this puts a bit more difficulty into any developing relationship. At least until the next episode.

[astronomicalchick]

I’ve been pondering the implications of Hot Zone for the Weir/Sheppard relationship, although I haven’t seen it so much of this could be completely wrong.

Spoiler:

I’m unclear on one thing- did Shep’s actions save the day? It’s hard to tell from the spoilers I’ve read. If the did, in that case, did the ends justify the means? This was also a theme in Poisoning the Well, when the Churchill comment is reference, and of course, this is also reflected in Shep disobeying orders and going back for two people in Afganistan. Does Sheppard really think he is right all the time? Some interesting possibilities to explore his character with that.

I’ve heard that he indicates to Weir that part of the reason why he disobeyed orders was to save her.. Okay, you can squee about that from the shippy point of view but I actually think it’s quite manipulative (I must being going through a reverse Liv-process, becoming more of a non-shipper), because I wouldn’t like to see Atlantis going the way of a main character disobeying orders to save the one he wuvs. However, I think that’s unlikely to be the motivation of the character, although I am happy for shippers to play with that if they want (including me in a rosy moment – I can squee quietly)

Best of all, I can see lots of interesting developments in Sheppard and Weir’s relationships for both of them., it would be good to see Sheppard seeing more than the personal picture when he makes decisions and for Weir to perhaps see less of the big picture.

I hope this makes sense, a bit brain dead this morning!

[Melyanna]

I’ve been pondering the implications of Hot Zone for the Weir/Sheppard relationship, although I haven’t seen it so much of this could be completely wrong.

Spoiler:

I’m unclear on one thing- did Shep’s actions save the day? It’s hard to tell from the spoilers I’ve read. If the did, in that case, did the ends justify the means? This was also a theme in Poisoning the Well, when the Churchill comment is reference, and of course, this is also reflected in Shep disobeying orders and going back for two people in Afganistan. Does Sheppard really think he is right all the time? Some interesting possibilities to explore his character with that.

Spoiler:

After putting the base in much greater danger, yes, he did end up saving the day — so thoroughly that at the end, Weir told him that the scheme he cooked up was a clever one. But Elizabeth wasn't against him helping out. She was going to send someone to clear him and Teyla as soon as someone in a hazmat suit was available. John just didn't want to wait around when there was a potential danger wandering around the city (the infected man who broke quarantine).

Spoiler:

I’ve heard that he indicates to Weir that part of the reason why he disobeyed orders was to save her.. Okay, you can squee about that from the shippy point of view but I actually think it’s quite manipulative (I must being going through a reverse Liv-process, becoming more of a non-shipper), because I wouldn’t like to see Atlantis going the way of a main character disobeying orders to save the one he wuvs. However, I think that’s unlikely to be the motivation of the character, although I am happy for shippers to play with that if they want (including me in a rosy moment – I can squee quietly)

Spoiler:

This is how I read it as well. It was really a dirty, dirty trick of his to use that, and I think it just made Elizabeth angrier. She knows he's manipulative, and that he can get her to do pretty much anything he wants. What's worse is that other people have noticed it too — remember McKay's "Help me!" from "The Defiant One"? I'm starting to think that there's cognizance of potentially deeper feelings, and that both of them know they can't lock that in a room and ignore it. The problem is that John didn't defer to her when he should have, because he's used to her letting him have his way.

Spoiler:

Best of all, I can see lots of interesting developments in Sheppard and Weir’s relationships for both of them., it would be good to see Sheppard seeing more than the personal picture when he makes decisions and for Weir to perhaps see less of the big picture.

I hope this makes sense, a bit brain dead this morning!

Spoiler:

I agree. Both of them need to find a happy medium, but John definitely needs to remember what he told Colonel Sumner in "Rising" — that Elizabeth is in charge.

I'll be posting more later.

[astronomicalchick]

Spoiler:

After putting the base in much greater danger, yes, he did end up saving the day — so thoroughly that at the end, Weir told him that the scheme he cooked up was a clever one. But Elizabeth wasn't against him helping out. She was going to send someone to clear him and Teyla as soon as someone in a hazmat suit was available. John just didn't want to wait around when there was a potential danger wandering around the city (the infected man who broke quarantine).

Ah, I see, thanks for clearing that up…

Spoiler:

This is how I read it as well. It was really a dirty, dirty trick of his to use that, and I think it just made Elizabeth angrier. She knows he's manipulative, and that he can get her to do pretty much anything he wants. What's worse is that other people have noticed it too — remember McKay's "Help me!" from "The Defiant One"? I'm starting to think that there's cognizance of potentially deeper feelings, and that both of them know they can't lock that in a room and ignore it. The problem is that John didn't defer to her when he should have, because he's used to her letting him have his way.

Spoiler:

I agree, you can look at this from the shippy angle, i.e. he did it all for love or if you look at from the relatively non-shippy angle, why did it think saying that would work? Because he thinks Weir “cares for him more than she should”?

Sorry…

Spoiler:

I agree. Both of them need to find a happy medium, but John definitely needs to remember what he told Colonel Sumner in "Rising" — that Elizabeth is in charge.

I'll be posting more later.

Yes she is, and he’d better remember it…

[Liv]

I loved Hot Zone and the interaction between Sheppard and Weir in this episode was great. So, I'm having lots of thoughts here and I'd like to share them with you. Brace yourselves.

Spoilers for Hot Zone:

Spoiler:

I said this in another thread too, but I loved the fact that there was conflict between them. I like that they both speak up, and that there is a difference of opinion, because it makes for some excellent drama.

That is certainly not a happy woman, but to be the voice of reason for the moment, I bet Elizabeth would look sick if she was sending anyone off to their potential death.

I agree. (Shocking, isn't it?)

Spoiler:

I thought she was mostly angry that he had so blatantly defied her, in front of her senior staff. But, I just re-watched that final scene in her office,and she didn't seem too angry with him afterwards. Had a faint smile at times, even. Still, this puts a bit more difficulty into any developing relationship. At least until the next episode.

Spoiler:

I'm definitely with you in that she was angry with him for not following her orders. But as for their difference in opinion putting a dampener on a potential relationship, well, I don't necessarily think that's true.
They're both very strong and opinionated people so if they were to pursue a relationship I wouldn't want them to lose that or start to tip-toe around each other. The fact that they have no problem expressing what's on their mind is part of the appeal for me.

Spoiler:

I’ve heard that he indicates to Weir that part of the reason why he disobeyed orders was to save her.. Okay, you can squee about that from the shippy point of view but I actually think it’s quite manipulative (I must being going through a reverse Liv-process, becoming more of a non-shipper), because I wouldn’t like to see Atlantis going the way of a main character disobeying orders to save the one he wuvs. However, I think that’s unlikely to be the motivation of the character, although I am happy for shippers to play with that if they want (including me in a rosy moment – I can squee quietly)

Spoiler:

My conversion of Astro has begun! Mwahahaha! ((((Astro))))
But seriously, I'm right there with you. He IS the leading military officer and she IS the leader of this expedition, and so I don't see any hidden meaning in their statements. And again, I LIKE the fact that there is conflict here, that neither one of them backs down in the slightest. It's just such an interesting dynamic right there.

[Melyanna]

Well, my thoughts on the episode turned out to be less than concise. Happy reading.

"Hot Zone"

Spoiler:

This was definitely an interesting episode for Sheppard and Weir, despite the fact that it was really a McKay episode. It seriously showed off both Joe Flanigan and Torri Higginson as excellent actors, and their chemistry was quite impressive. This is another episode from Martin Gero (who wrote “The Eye” as well), so it looks like there’s a writer on the staff who finds this dyad interesting.

Some were concerned htat they were going after Sheppard/Teyla in this one, but the whole gym scene served mostly to establish that they’re “boxing buddies” who work out together. Also, it was this scene that allowed for Sheppard to defy Weir’s orders in the first place (more on that later). There was this little exchange that made me laugh:

TEYLA: If this was really a fight—
SHEPPARD: If this was really a fight, I would have shot you by now.

It was an amusing buddy scene, but it also foreshadowed some things which would come later in the episode. Teyla has been teaching him this form of combat, and he hasn’t been practicing enough. He excuses it by saying that he would never have to use this in a real fight, instead of accepting the benefits of practicing this more. It also set up the fact that Sheppard just doesn’t listen to people who don’t agree with him.

John’s first problem with Elizabeth putting the city in quarantine is that she made the decision without him. He didn’t have his radio with him in the gym (ended up borrowing Teyla’s), and since Elizabeth felt the decision had to be made quickly, she made it without his consultation. However, she was careful to note that she did not make this decision alone — she consulted Sergeant Bates about it, who agreed with her. After being told that the only way he’s getting out of there is if someone in hazmat gear brings him hazmat gear, John insists that she send someone immediately. Elizabeth refuses, telling him that the medical personnel are all busy, and that radio communication will have to suffice. John’s not happy about this, but he agrees, provided Elizabeth keep him informed.

Not long after this, a third scientist dies, and Peterson, who is already infected, flees the Ancient lab during the commotion. Elizabeth orders the corridors locked down, but interestingly, McKay immediately tells her that she needs to send someone to stop him, because he knows enough about Ancient technology to override the locks. Peterson is heading toward the control room.

When John finds out about this, he insists that someone has to stop Peterson, but Elizabeth reminds him that this is still a medical situation, not a military one. After a little more verbal sparring, she has Grodin seal the gym and tells John that she can’t risk him getting infected, because he is the ranking military officer on the expedition. He responds with “I can’t risk you getting infected,” and orders Bates to open the door. Bates hesitates when Elizabeth orders him not to do it, but eventually he follows John’s order instead.

There’s definitely an aura of “I’m doing this at the risk of my life to save yours,” but I’m not sure if it’s actually shippy. As Astro noted earlier, this is really, really manipulative of him. But this time Elizabeth doesn’t buy it. She insists that his intervention is not necessary, but then Bates opens the door anyway. And thus we have a very angry Elizabeth through the rest of the episode.

Next up we get Teyla and John suiting up in a lab. Teyla tells him in no uncertain terms that he shouldn’t have undermined Elizabeth’s command in front of a subordinate. His response is that Elizabeth occasionally makes a decision and refuses to budge. Teyla points out that Elizabeth isn’t the only one.

Others have brought up the next moment in the episode, and I’m still not sure what it’s supposed to indicate. As John asks for Peterson’s location, the camera zooms in on Elizabeth, who is staring intently at the monitor of her laptop. There’s relatively ominous piano music underneath the scene (and you all know how much I draw from musical cues). She doesn’t answer, and I first thought she was infected by the disease somehow. Then, in an annoyed tone, John calls her by first name to get her attention. Then she tells him where Peterson is, and John and Teyla head out.

I found it interesting in this scene that John refers to Elizabeth twice by name, once in speaking of her and the other to her. At some point between “The Eye” and here, he seems to have gotten comfortable enough with her to address her that informally. But I think it’s also another subtle form of manipulation on his part. Elizabeth did the same thing to him in “Rising”, when they were arguing about the best course of action. John seems to be reversing her own tactics.

The next scene with the two of them is the most explosive of the episode. When Peterson manages to use a transporter to get to the mess hall and exposes the people there, the city puts itself into an automatic quarantine, which includes locking down the transporters. John mouths off and says that it would have been a good idea for them to do that before, and Elizabeth gets very sharp with him for it. If you thought she was mad at Kavanaugh in “Thirty-Eight Minutes”, you haven’t seen anything yet. And she has every right to be angry with him. They had disabled the transporters, but in order to let John and Teyla into that section of the city to subdue Peterson, they had to power up the corridor, which included the transporters.

(This, incidentally, is where Grodin’s odd half-smile comes in. It’s strange in part because it isn’t cut to, but rather panned to, suggesting that it was intentionally placed there, not because they needed extra seconds.)

Toward the end of the episode they decide that an electromagnetic pulse is the only way to knock out the virus, and when it’s determined that the pinch they have won’t do the job, John comes up with an idea to create an EMP strong enough by creating a nuclear explosion high in the atmosphere with a naquadah generator. Once again, McKay is backing John on the issue while Elizabeth maintains that it’s too risky. John wants to know if she’s more willing to sacrifice a third of the expedition, and the implication is that it’s a matter of risking them or him, because the only other risk mentioned is the computer equipment. In light of the earlier comments about her being unwilling to risk him, I’d imagine that that was what it was referring to.

When she gives the go on the stupid plan to save the day, Elizabeth really looks sick about what she’s just done, and John really looks like he regrets having pushed her as far as he did. And then John looks like he’s about to vomit a bit later, which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. At any rate, we get the obligatory communications-were-knocked-out scene, in which Elizabeth looks a little scared when John doesn’t report for a full twenty-six seconds. There are reactions from the rest of the crew, who are all worried that John has sacrificed himself to save them.

Interestingly, for an episode so very heavy in Sheppard/Weir interaction, they’re only physically together in one scene, which is the last of the episode. John is seated in front of her desk, looking extremely uncomfortable, and Elizabeth asks if he’s okay. Instead of the clear honesty with which she answered that question in “The Eye”, he jokes about nuclear explosions. Then Elizabeth tells him that his idea to blow up the reactor high in the atmosphere was a good one. John thanks her, somewhat sarcastically, and tries to leave, but then we get this:

ELIZABETH: We need to discuss what happened earlier.
JOHN: Now?
ELIZABETH: That can never happen again.

He tries to apologize, but Elizabeth cuts him off, telling him that she respects his position as ranking military officer, but that she will decide what is and what is not a military matter. Then she tells him that both General O’Neill and Colonel Sumner warned her about John, saying that he has no respect for the chain of command. He tries to make an excuse about seeing things from a different perspective, but Elizabeth lays it on the line for him: what he did was reckless. The fact that he saved Elizabeth’s life (which he throws in her face) doesn’t change the fact that he has to follow her orders.

ELIZABETH: I know you did. But you have to trust me.
JOHN: *hesitates* I do.
ELIZABETH: Do you?

At that point, Beckett and McKay walk in to discuss the virus. In part it’s because there’s forty seconds to go in the episode, but it also leaves this issue wide open. It’ll be interesting to see where they go with this. John seems quite aware that he abused his friendship with Elizabeth, and she’s hurting on both a professional level and a personal level. And to be honest, it’s actually kind of refreshing to see this level of conflict among the heroes extend past the end credits.

All in all, “Hot Zone” was an interesting episode, Teyla’s questionable wardrobe notwithstanding. You’ll notice that I didn’t really touch on the main plot with the virus, because there was so much here in this power struggle subplot. David Hewlett was quite amazing in this episode, and the performances in general just floored me. But what impressed me most was where this episode took John and Elizabeth. As comfortable as they seemed with each other in “Home”, “Underground”, and “The Defiant One”, this was bound to happen sooner or later, and it was great to see it dealt with head-on.