When is McKay going to change?

[Pandora's_Box]

that's exactly my point... no character has ever truly changed. Daniel comes close going from his anti-violence/pro-peace approach in season 1 to his unwavering resolve to destroy the Ori in season 10... but he falls short, as his character evolution was merely a lot of growth and overcoming of his naivte....

rodney has a lot of potential to change... moreso than anyone who's been on SG-1 or SGA... he can overcome his arrogance... he can stop letting his ego control him and put the expedition at risk... he can endear himself to his teammates and stop being the whiny fifth wheel... he can learn humility... and he can stop whining... etc etc... if he accomplishes all of this, then we can say that he's truly changed...

i think that this would be a good arc for SGA to employ... have him become the driving force of the next two seasons...

SGA needs a strong character-focused storyarc to last any longer than season 5.... otherwise it'll just be another run-of-the-mill science fiction show... and will fall even further away from SG-1's quality...

But then I have to ask you? Why would you want the character to change? You seem to be looking for character development that is more realistic, as you say it. Realistically then, no person truly ever changes in their base personality. An arrogant person can sometime be humble. A mean person may be capable of showing kindness. A kind person is also capable of being mean. But very rarely and only when faced with extreme circumstance, when one's life may be on the line, does a person ever truly change who they are. I would think it impossible.

And I, personally, wouldn't want to see it happen. I like Mckay the way he is. Not only Mckay, but all the charcters. In general, I am intrigued by this show for the exact reason that I like to see people overcome their faults and negative character traits because they realize that at this very moment, maybe they should be less petty. Maybe they should exhibit some compassion where normally they may not.

I agree, Rodne does have the potential to change as a person. But why would he need to. Too many times to count, his arrogance and self-confidence in his abilities, his tenacity and stubborness, has saved the hide of everyone on Atlantis. He makes mistakes yes, and I also think that he has learned from them.

You say he can overcome his arrogance. I say, why should he? He's smarter than everyone else on Atlantis and he knows it. He's saved their lives on numerous occasions. I'm not saying that's an excuse or even a very valid reason but it is what it is. If Rodney were always arrogant and there were no way to reason with hime ever, then yes, I would want the writers to cease and desist immediately. But then I wouldn't be watching the show. The point is that Rodney has shown that he can be humble. That even his arrogance has limits.

Letting his ego put the expedition at risk??? His ego has saved the expedition many, many, many times.

Endear himself to his team? He has. Why else would they risk their lives to save his his? Why else would they put up with him after hours? Why else would they lie to him about not linking Rod in 'Mckay and Mrs.Miller' just to make him feel better?

Whiny fifth wheel? Fifth wheel implies hanging around and being useless. Mckay is hardly useless. 'Hive' anyone. And numerous others.

Learn humility? He has. 'Trinity' comes to mind. 'Tao of Rodney' comes to mind. He has apologized in the past. And dare I say, deep down he knows that even he isn't infallible.

Stop whining? Nah....he's funny when he whines. It's just who he is. He also hasn't been doing nearly as much of that lately as he did in the first seasons.

So no. Mckay doesn't need to change. None of them need to change. It's much more interesting to watch people overcome who they are and what they're used to being. It's much more interesting watching people deal out of their comfort zones.

[bluealien]

that's exactly my point... no character has ever truly changed. Daniel comes close going from his anti-violence/pro-peace approach in season 1 to his unwavering resolve to destroy the Ori in season 10... but he falls short, as his character evolution was merely a lot of growth and overcoming of his naivte....

rodney has a lot of potential to change... moreso than anyone who's been on SG-1 or SGA... he can overcome his arrogance... he can stop letting his ego control him and put the expedition at risk... he can endear himself to his teammates and stop being the whiny fifth wheel... he can learn humility... and he can stop whining... etc etc... if he accomplishes all of this, then we can say that he's truly changed...

i think that this would be a good arc for SGA to employ... have him become the driving force of the next two seasons...

SGA needs a strong character-focused storyarc to last any longer than season 5.... otherwise it'll just be another run-of-the-mill science fiction show... and will fall even further away from SG-1's quality...

Why do you want to change him.. he is who he is and has grown from his experiences but he is not going to fundamentally change from who he is as he would no longer be Rodney McKay.

SGA has already got strong characters and I don't want to see any of them dominate the show.. I want more of a balance and think they work much better as a team and when they play off each others strenghts.

SGA is not just a run of the mill science show fiction show for me. It's the best science fiction show IMO or I wouldn't be watching and I'm not even going to compare it to SG1 as that was another show with different characters that I enjoyed for different reasons.

[IrishPisano]

I can only speak for the example of LOTR because I don't know the others. How do you make the difference between growth and change? For me Aragorn grew into the role as a leader. He ran away from this responsibility in the past. That means, he has always been a leader personality inside.

With this example for me McKay has changed. He has changed from a selfish person who is only interest in science in a person who not only has friends for the first time in his life but also cares for them and even defend them. He has changed from a cowardly person to a little bit more brave one. So he is now a person which he never was before. McKay sure is the most interesting character of SGA and has made the most development.

And for the arrogance: This is his personality. Change needn't mean to change everything. This isn't possible in real life and I guess it would even be too much in a TV show. With too much change it wouldn't be the McKay I'd like to see.

Growth can yield change.
The change in Aragorn was that, as he grew into the leader of the resistance, he changed and came to accept his rightful position as king of Gondor... He grew into a leader, and grew to desire victory over Sauron... this growth spawned his change from refusing to take his thrown to willingly accepting it.

Why is McKay changing, and overcoming his arrogance and ego too much for you? why is it too much for the character to evolve?

For me, i want to see him change, i want something to happen on SGA to make it interesting again, otherwise its just week after week of a group of earthlings in another galaxy fighting bad guys... i want a true character-driven story to happen... and i believe that a true character-driven story could save SGA from the monotony its stuck in...


Now, Ronon - there's another character with potential for change...

Spoiler:

He's a Satedan through and through, and week after week we are reminded that he is still an outsider in Atlantis along for the ride...
But we have seen glimmers of change in him, brought about by his emotional growth since season 2. he's cozied up with Keller and had a heart to heart with her... he hugged Cloneson Beckett... its this emotional growth that could lead to a change within him where he decides to finally fully embrace Atlantis as his home, to embrace the reality that he is now an Atlantean, no longer a Satedan...

It's a fine line, sometimes, between growth and change... you can have growth without change, but you cannot have change without growth, so it can be difficult to see the difference sometimes. this is best seen with the Ronon situation.

He has grown much since season 2, from the cold-standoffish, pissed off Satedan, to the warming teammate we see him as this season. that is growth. the change would be if he came to call himself an Atlantean now and accepted Atlantis as his home.

Change means things are different.
The difference with the Ronon situation would be that he was once a Satedan, but he is now an Atlantean...

like i said, its a fine line sometimes... and you have to pay close attention and think, a little deeply, to fully grasp it...

[fumblesmcstupid]

Meridith Rodney McKay

Selfish
Petty
Bad With People

Those are his HIS words in Grace Under Pressure

Selfish: Didn't he ask John to let Rodney be fed on by Todd to save his sister?

Petty: "Sam we are Geniuses" in BAMSR

Bad with people: He still IS bad with people! Just not the ones that matter to him! John, Ronon, and Teyla even Sam and Radek and Carson!

I love Rodney just the way he is!

Rodney is a Great Character!

Practically perfect in EVERYWAY!

[Pandora's_Box]

Meridith Rodney McKay

Selfish
Petty
Bad With People

Those are his HIS words in Grace Under Pressure

And he of course does find himself very attractive. Naturally. As do we all.

Practically perfect in every way?? Indeed.

[IrishPisano]

Meridith Rodney McKay

Selfish
Petty
Bad With People

Those are his HIS words in Grace Under Pressure

Selfish: Didn't he ask John to let Rodney be fed on by Todd to save his sister?

Petty: "Sam we are Geniuses" in BAMSR

Bad with people: He still IS bad with people! Just not the ones that matter to him! John, Ronon, and Teyla even Sam and Radek and Carson!

I love Rodney just the way he is!

Rodney is a Great Character!

Practically perfect in EVERYWAY!

indeed he is a great character... in fact i find him to be the only character aside from Ronon worth tuning into SGA for...

Sheppard's gone one-dimensional... teyla's always been boring... keller's hot but boring... zelenka is a lackey... and carter's a shell of what she once was...

the only reason i tune in week after week is that i'm like a, as we eye-talianos say, "a friend of stargate" youknowhaddimean? the story is not attractive enough for me to tune in every week... nor are the majority of characters... as i said, its only because of it's title: "stargate" that i tune in, and mckay and ronon are secondary reasons to that... after those 3, there's nothing that i consider worth watching...

BUT, a character arc for Rodney would make things interesting again imo...

[silvercomet]

But then I have to ask you? Why would you want the character to change? ......

I do so agree. I wanted to green you, but I couldn't. I guess we have (always?) the same opinion.

Why is McKay changing, and overcoming his arrogance and ego too much for you? why is it too much for the character to evolve?

For me, i want to see him change, i want something to happen on SGA to make it interesting again, otherwise its just week after week of a group of earthlings in another galaxy fighting bad guys... i want a true character-driven story to happen... and i believe that a true character-driven story could save SGA from the monotony its stuck in...

No, I didn't mean he has changed too much, now. I meant for me he has already changed compared with the McKay we saw first.

I'm afraid, that he would change too much if I imagine your suggested direction till the "end". If a person change about 180 degree it wouldn't be the same person. I don't think a friend would be still my friend with such a big change. Since I like the McKay character so much I dont' want that happens to him. Some things suit him. For example IMO he has the brain and so the "right" to be arrogant. I don't say that this is very nice And even this has already changed sometimes. He can admit his mistakes and he can apologize.

I'm all in for true character-driven storys in SGA. I have to admit that I was disappointed with some eps. Because the story could have been fantastic but the result was less character-driven as I have expected. Sometimes they stay at the surface of the character. IMO they could explore them deeper.

[Pandora's_Box]

I do so agree. I wanted to green you, but I couldn't. I guess we have (always?) the same opinion.



No, I didn't mean he has changed too much, now. I meant for me he has already changed compared with the McKay we saw first.

I'm afraid, that he would change too much if I imagine your suggested direction till the "end". If a person change about 180 degree it wouldn't be the same person. I don't think a friend would be still my friend with such a big change. Since I like the McKay character so much I dont' want that happens to him. Some things suit him. For example IMO he has the brain and so the "right" to be arrogant. I don't say that this is very nice And even this has already changed sometimes. He can admit his mistakes and he can apologize.

I'm all in for true character-driven storys in SGA. I have to admit that I was disappointed with some eps. Because the story could have been fantastic but the result was less character-driven as I have expected. Sometimes they stay at the surface of the character. IMO they could explore them deeper.

HAH! I tried to green you also....can't....but I will.

I agree with your statements 100%......again.

[KindlyKeller]

You're making a distinction between growth and change that I don't think exists. It's just a semantics game.

When one says Rodney has "grown" out of his selfish habits, they also mean he's "changed" into someone who is less selfish.

The change you're talking about is essentially rewriting the character to be completely different, which basically means he wouldn't be McKay at all anymore. At that point, they might as well have a different actor play him. I certainly want no part of that.

[Pandora's_Box]

You're making a distinction between growth and change that I don't think exists. It's just a semantics game.

When one says Rodney has "grown" out of his selfish habits, they also mean he's "changed" into someone who is less selfish.

The change you're talking about is essentially rewriting the character to be completely different, which basically means he wouldn't be McKay at all anymore. At that point, they might as well have a different actor play him. I certainly want no part of that.

Hmmm...kay so I'm sort of agreeing with you on some of what you said and sort of not agreeing with some of what you said. I think that's just cause I'm not too clear on what you're actually saying.

I think there is a distinction between character 'growth' and character 'change'. To use your example of selfishness. A selfish person would exhibit growth by performing selfless acts. A selfish person would change by ceasing to be selfish. I don't really believe the latter to be very common or very possible.

I do agree that changing the character would be ridiculous. I wouldn't want any part of a non-Rodney, Rodney either. Like I've said before, I rather enjoy watching characters overcome their faults. So seeing Mckay act selfless or kind or humble when we all know him to be selfish, and petty, and arrogant makes those moments all that much sweeter.

[KindlyKeller]

Yeah, I think we just disagree on there being a clear distinction between growth and change.

BUT, if I work from the premise of accepting IrishPisano's view of change, then -- yeah -- I think we agree that we want no part of such character overhauls.

[IrishPisano]

You're making a distinction between growth and change that I don't think exists. It's just a semantics game.

When one says Rodney has "grown" out of his selfish habits, they also mean he's "changed" into someone who is less selfish.

The change you're talking about is essentially rewriting the character to be completely different, which basically means he wouldn't be McKay at all anymore. At that point, they might as well have a different actor play him. I certainly want no part of that.

ah, but rodney has not grown out of his selfish habits... he is less selfish than he once was, but he is still inherently selfish... CHANGE would be for him to become a self-less person and forsake selfishness on the whole...

and if the writers evolve the character and change him then he still IS the same person... he's merely changed.

Again, like Michael Corleone in Godfather...
comlpetely against the mafia and their way of life... look at the scene at the end of Godfather 2 - the flashback (which takes place BEFORE godfather 1 in the chronology)... then look at him at the end of Godfather 1... he has changed, but he is still Michael Corleone...

growth can lead to change...
change is a departure from one's up-to-now "normal" modus operandi...
and the combination growth and change is evolution...

if it is done properly, any character that is changed is still the same character... merely evolved...


Andy in Devil Wears Prada... she completely changed from when she started her job to when she went to Paris... but she's still the same person... she grew to understand and overcome her naivte, she changed when she embraced the reality that she had to do certain things to be successful at her job... by the time she goes to Paris, she is different from how she was when she started her job... she grew out of her childish "i want a gold star" mentality and realized that she needed to change in order to keep her job, and that's what she did..... again, growth leading to change...

in Matrix (just Matrix, not RL or RV): Neo grew to understand his destiny... it was his growth that enabled him to see the complete picture... and then he changed, he accepted the burden of responsibility that was placed before him.

there is a fine distinction between growth and change... growth is a long, drawn-out gradual process... and change is a significant, distinguishable action at a specific instance in one's life that sends you down a different path... you need growth in order to change, but just becaue you grow doesn't mean you'll change... but when you do grow and you do change, you have evolved


i can continue to list example after example till i'm blue in the face of how characters both grow and change, and how they're different...

and i will if you really want me to...


but that'll be getting off topic...

and the topic is that while McKay has shown an increase in maturity and has grown as a person on SGA, he is still the same selfish egotistical person he was way back in season 1... he has failed to undergo any legitimate change...

and i, for one, would like to see him change, and thus evolving over the course of the series...

otherwise, he'll still be the same nerdy whiny meredith he's always been, and that's getting increasingly boring...

[KindlyKeller]

Now you're saying that GROWTH isn't EVOLVING?

Let's just agree to disagree, dear friend, because I think you're way off-base and you think I'm way off-base, and that's not going to change.

[Pandora's_Box]

and the topic is that while McKay has shown an increase in maturity and has grown as a person on SGA, he is still the same selfish egotistical person he was way back in season 1... he has failed to undergo any legitimate change...

and i, for one, would like to see him change, and thus evolving over the course of the series...

otherwise, he'll still be the same nerdy whiny meredith he's always been, and that's getting increasingly boring...

But....but....that's Rodney Mckay. That's the character. He can't change who he is. None of us can. We can change our perceptions of the world or how we view it. We can change how we react to certain things, certain situations, and certain people. But it seems to me you're looking for something beyond that. Something I don't think is even realistically possible. You're asking him to get, in effect, a personality transplant. Not going to happen.

I am a cynical person. Does that mean that I can't appreciate a good deed? No. Does that mean that I don't believe that sometimes good things happen? No.
I also tend to be selfish. Am I always? I don't think so. I can lend people a helping hand. I have done altruistic things. But throw me into a tight situation and I will first and foremost think of how to get myself out. Will I leave others to perish. I'd like to think not.
Same goes for Rodney.

I think we're going to have agree to majorly disagree. We seem to be working off very different conceptions on how the mind works and what a person is and isn't capable of. That, and we have very different definitions for character growth and change.

[IrishPisano]

Now you're saying that GROWTH isn't EVOLVING?

Let's just agree to disagree, dear friend, because I think you're way off-base and you think I'm way off-base, and that's not going to change.

i never said growth is not evolving...

i said that growth is PART of evolving...

evolution, by definition, includes change...

growth + change = evolution

But....but....that's Rodney Mckay. That's the character. He can't change who he is. None of us can. We can change our perceptions of the world or how we view it. We can change how we react to certain things, certain situations, and certain people. But it seems to me you're looking for something beyond that. Something I don't think is even realistically possible. You're asking him to get, in effect, a personality transplant. Not going to happen.

yes, i know that's Rodney McKay, in fact that's one of the reasons i find him to be the best character on the show... he's not your standard one-dimensional character like Teyla has become like Sheppard's become, like Carter's become, etc...
and

you CAN in fact change who you are, if you truly want to.
again... for fictional characters: Michael Corleone...

a personality transplant is not what I'm looking for

what i'm looking for is for McKay's character to evolve... we're halfway there in that he's already shown the capacity for growth and has grown since entering the Pegasus galaxy... however, he is still the same way he was back then, just a little less... there is nothing wrong with character evolution, with character change, provided that it makes sense... having McKay change into a selfless and self-aware person is plausible given the right circumstances under which it happens...


if you dont' want him to evolve at all, fine...

i for one would like to see SGA do SOMETHING interesting from a literary standpoint and get away from the stereotypical good guys vs bad buys scifi motiff that they are stuck in...

SG-1 did it: they mixed scifi and fantasy with earth's mythology...

SGA has not done anything along those lines... and i think taking a stereotypical scifi show and adding in a strong literary device like a character arc would make the show interesting again...