Pro Shep/Weir Discussion - How will Season 4 effect Sparky SPOILERS for Season 4

[Southern Red]

Thanks Suzotchka for starting this thread. A lot of us need to get a few things off our chests, and this is a great place to do it. Some of you have hit the nail on the head, I think, by laying the blame for losing Torri square at the feet of SciFi. But IMHO, if TPTB at Bridge had cared enough to fight maybe they could have saved her. In situations like this, you always follow the money. You've got a bunch of suits at SciFi who probably don't even watch their own shows. They just look at demographic charts or go by old information that is accepted as fact but is no longer relevant. For example, that most SciFi fans are 15 year old boys who are social outcasts. Rubbage! All they know is that the ratings were down for the first half of S3 and SOMETHING MUST BE DONE, so in their infinite wisdom they remember what they learned in a marketing 101 class...sex sells and when in doubt change something. Ergo...Carson must die and the "mature" female cast member must go. Now Carter is a fan favorite...a military scientist that's the best of both worlds. So, they can just plug her right into Weir's job...voila...ratings boost. Aren't they geniuses though?

In fact, I would bet that Carter's dialogue will sound to the educated ear and who is more educated than a Weir fan? just like it could have come out of Weir's mouth. Yes, she won't disagree as much with the military guys, but as far as the day to day running of the base, we will get exactly the same scenes as with Weir. Carter and Teyla will become BFF in no time, and Ronon will respect her instantly. John will treat her like he would any higher ranking officer and will become her new errand boy. He'll irritate her with his relaxed command style, and they'll clash, but only a little.

I also think there will be no shipping her with John...not even a hint of it, and the Carter/Mckay attraction will fade away also. They are hoping that after Weir is gone the average fan will forget she ever existed, and I doubt she'll be mentioned by the others.

As far as actually doing ship, I have mixed feelings about that. I have always made it clear, I hope, that I've seen what they were attempting to do with Sheyla from the beginning. I just don't like it or think it will work. I think that's the key to what TPTB just don't get. They think if Elizabeth goes away, all the Sparky fans will move over to the Sheyla thread and live happily in harmony with that crowd. Well, just a little bit of advice from someone who has lived longer than any of them. It's just not going to happen. In reality, I think TPTB think they are doing Sheyla and have been all along. The fact that 3 out of 4 viewers don't seem to know that seems to escape them. So, sadly, I think the painfully awkward moments between those two where it looks like he's interacting with a little sister will continue until sometime in S5 we'll get the most painful moment of all. Oh, but wait, I really doubt there will be an S5, not because of ship but because SciFi just doesn't seem to care if this show succeeds or not.

Frankly, I feel sorry for all the writers and producers and crew at Bridge Studios who are trying to put on the best show they know how but will soon be out of jobs. I agree with whoever said things change. What started out as a delightfully different show with people I could really care about has turned into an irritation that I may not even bother with in the fall.

[Anuna]

I totally understand that to tell a good story you have to play with things and sometimes do things to characters that you wouldn't have expected or perhaps even have wanted to do in the beginning. But all of what's going on with the Atlantis cast right now doesn't appear to be to the best benefit of the show. Sometimes I think it's like they sat down and thought, "hmm, how many groups of fans can we alienate at the end of season 3?"

I think it's a cheap strategy: okay, we have to do something now that SG - 1 got cancelled, so let's play the winning card (Carter). Fans love her. And by adding "a little shock" we can stirr things up a litlle bit, add few explosions, space fights and so on, bring new baddies even worse than the Ori... if you ask me it's a bad recepie.

What I loved about early SG - 1 episodes was the team. They were like a family, we got to see their relationships develop, there were so many great moments of fun and friendship and mutual caring about each other. Atlantis doesn't have that, and probbably never will because they keep changing the cast. For me it's a sign that things in the franchise aren't going well, and that they are putting the show on life support, so to speak.

But in the season 3 there were new hopes for the team development. Example: the episode "Common ground". There were few fabulos team - like moments; when they watch those transmisions from Kolya. Everybody is there, they share their concern, all of them trying to do something. We can clearly see who is in charge - it's Eizabeth. Those are so powerful moments, and everybody respects her decisions. There is one moment when Teyla shows her direct support and I loved that. (Why they never developed their relationship? It is fully unlogical. ) There is another moment when Elizabeth sends the team to retrieve John and Ronon repeats something she said earlier to Genii commander radim "No promises". I loved that immensly!! Finally there was some sense of team connection! It looked like somebody did a good piece of writing - finally!!!

So, let's flush all of that down the toilet and start the Stargate: Carter edition.

@Celcool - well, I don't think I'm unlucky. It's great to have that kind of characters at all.

[Celcool]

@Celcool - well, I don't think I'm unlucky. It's great to have that kind of characters at all.

I know, I just meant because you have them and then they also kill them. lol

[cshawzye]

What I loved about early SG - 1 episodes was the team. They were like a family, we got to see their relationships develop, there were so many great moments of fun and friendship and mutual caring about each other. Atlantis doesn't have that, and probbably never will because they keep changing the cast. For me it's a sign that things in the franchise aren't going well, and that they are putting the show on life support, so to speak.

Exactly. How can you establish connections to the show if you're constantly killing/demoting your characters and changing your cast dymanics?!? Not everyone wants to see explosion and great CG. Sure, that stuff is cool but a lot of fans want the character driven, team-building episodes. We got a lot of great character episodes in season 3 and now it feels like all of that is being thrown out the window. I refuse to believe that Carter will come in and all of a sudden fit into the dynamic and have a rapport with all of the characters. Rodney, maybe. But Sheppard, Teyla, Ronon?!?! Have they ever even spent any substantial time together? Have they fought together for their survival like they have with Weir? No.

What bugs me about the whole Carter thing with her coming and possibly running Atlantis is that they've been fighting to keep Atlantis in civilan hands and all of a sudden it's going to be under miltary control? If you wanted it under military command why not give command to Sheppard? Doesn't he seem more logical as a military leader of Atlantis in Weir's absence than Carter? Now, Sheppard in charge of Atlantis might be inetersting in terms of Sparky ...

[Anuna]

Well, think of Carter as of a respirator / other life support machines. I don't see how SGA will continue into S5.

Sheppard in charge of Atlantis would be interesting in terms of Sparky, yes, but I think he would suck doing Weir's job.

I think they are bringign AT because they are counting on boosting the show ratings, because she is a fan favourite. I don't think it will happen because the team dynamics, that just started to develop, will be messed up greatly.

About Sheyla - what Sheyla moments in S2 and S3?? There is like zero chemistry between them. If TPTB decide to go for it, well OMG... that would be the worse cliche they could possibly bring up. If they wanted to do that from the beginning, then I think Joe and Torri stole the show from Rachel.

[Celcool]

About Sheyla - what Sheyla moments in S2 and S3?? There is like zero chemistry between them. If TPTB decide to go for it, well OMG... that would be the worse cliche they could possibly bring up. If they wanted to do that from the beginning, then I think Joe and Torri stole the show from Rachel.

Agreed. btw. I didn't try to make you feel bad with my previous post, you know what I mean, I know what you mean too. Love your sig too!

I for one do feel unlucky, right before I started watching SGA, one of my favorite shows was cancelled. I really thought I'll be able to enjoy my new fave show for a long time, I figured it's scifi, it's those guys that created SG-1 (I knew about it but never watched it), I had faith that this time I finally found a "sure thing" in a show. How wrong was I?? I feel like it's no longer the show I fell in love with. Bringing in new folks, removing the one I've grown to care about... yeah just what I needed in another show I got attached to.

[SazZat]

Personally the Sheyla ship doesn't worry me at all because I really don't see it. The only time I saw it was in the first half of season 1 then it kinda pittered away into the background a bit.
Also, from reading a lot of recent interviews, it doesn't sound like any ship will be explored any further than UST. Joe Flanigan said in the most recent Stargate mag that he basically prefers UST and really doesn't like sickly love stuff. And at VanCon Rachel apparently said she'd like to see Teyla have a relationship but it would be more interesting if it was outside of the main team and maybe even outside of Atlantis earth team.

So I wouldn't worry to much about Shep being shipped with someone else very soon
There's always too much else going on in Stargate for them to ever have time for ship. All we ever get is UST.

Also, about Southern Red's comments. I don't think that TPTB are getting rid of Elizabeth just so everyone ships Sheyla. I don't think they care that much about ship to be honest. And also we know there are writers who like the relationship between Shep and Elizabeth. Not everyone ships Sheyla. I don't think it was ever their intention to have that as the main ship. I think their intention was to set Shep up as being this sort of cheeky, flirtatious, slightly more layed back flyboy, and the way to do that was in the first episodes to give him that dynamic with Teyla.
By mid-way season 1 that had worn off and they started to build more of a friendship which has continued though season 2 and 3. If anything I would say TPTB are leaning more towards Ronan/Teyla if it is based on how much screen time they have together and how much chemistry.

But whatever to all those Teyla ships. I want her to get with *cough*Michael*cough* That would be a great storyline...the possibilities. Teyla to go bad? Or Michael to turn perminantly good? Oooooo

But anyway. Sparky. I don't think anything will replace Sparky. The have a special relationship. It's totally different to any other ship that's in Atlantis. I don't think it will just die overnight. They have such a strong bond and close friendship now. It won't die.

And don't worry about Sheyla. I'm pretty sure TPTB aren't so obsessed with it as you are making out Like I said above. In the early episodes I'm pretty sure it was just a way of defining Shep's character. We had to have a way to see that he was a flirty fun loving guy. Teyla was just eye candy to him then. Now he has a lot more respect for her as a friend and member of his team. Plus, he seems quite happy to have let Ronan take the reigns in Teyla's number 1 protector.

Sparky is a completely different relationship. Shep knew he couldn't treat Elizabeth in the way he did Teyla from the start. They needed to get each others respect as professionals first (season 1) then turn it to friendship and respect (season 2) and then really start to understand how it is to really know and care for each other (season 3). Sure they have the flirty side, but the fact that Shep was cautious of using that at first but then evoling to using it quite a few times with Elizabeth just goes to show how far they've come. If you understand what I mean.

Time is a powerful thing. Love shows up where you least expect it. Even though they might not know it, they do obviously care about each other very very much. They can't run from this.
And we know that TPTB are obvious to this because of what is said about the HUG in the Siege Pt 3 commentary. They wanted to show that they do care about each other. And they have built on that hug with friendship and such a great bond. The writers know it is there (Gero and Binder particularly) and they aren't about to just forget about it, I'm quite confident.

[Southern Red]

I think it's a cheap strategy: okay, we have to do something now that SG - 1 got cancelled, so let's play the winning card (Carter). Fans love her. And by adding "a little shock" we can stirr things up a litlle bit, add few explosions, space fights and so on, bring new baddies even worse than the Ori... if you ask me it's a bad recepie.

What I loved about early SG - 1 episodes was the team. They were like a family, we got to see their relationships develop, there were so many great moments of fun and friendship and mutual caring about each other. Atlantis doesn't have that, and probbably never will because they keep changing the cast. For me it's a sign that things in the franchise aren't going well, and that they are putting the show on life support, so to speak.

ITA. I mentioned to my husband who is a huge "run with guns and blow things up kind of guy" that they were going much darker in S4. He was very disappointed because in addition to explosions he also loves the humor and lightness of the show. I think their changes sound like desperation.

Also, about Southern Red's comments. I don't think that TPTB are getting rid of Elizabeth just so everyone ships Sheyla. I don't think they care that much about ship to be honest. And also we know there are writers who like the relationship between Shep and Elizabeth. Not everyone ships Sheyla. I don't think it was ever their intention to have that as the main ship. I think their intention was to set Shep up as being this sort of cheeky, flirtatious, slightly more layed back flyboy, and the way to do that was in the first episodes to give him that dynamic with Teyla.
By mid-way season 1 that had worn off and they started to build more of a friendship which has continued though season 2 and 3. If anything I would say TPTB are leaning more towards Ronan/Teyla if it is based on how much screen time they have together and how much chemistry.

But whatever to all those Teyla ships. I want her to get with *cough*Michael*cough* That would be a great storyline...the possibilities. Teyla to go bad? Or Michael to turn perminantly good? Oooooo

But anyway. Sparky. I don't think anything will replace Sparky. The have a special relationship. It's totally different to any other ship that's in Atlantis. I don't think it will just die overnight. They have such a strong bond and close friendship now. It won't die.

And don't worry about Sheyla. I'm pretty sure TPTB aren't so obsessed with it as you are making out Like I said above. In the early episodes I'm pretty sure it was just a way of defining Shep's character. We had to have a way to see that he was a flirty fun loving guy. Teyla was just eye candy to him then. Now he has a lot more respect for her as a friend and member of his team. Plus, he seems quite happy to have let Ronan take the reigns in Teyla's number 1 protector.

Sparky is a completely different relationship. Shep knew he couldn't treat Elizabeth in the way he did Teyla from the start. They needed to get each others respect as professionals first (season 1) then turn it to friendship and respect (season 2) and then really start to understand how it is to really know and care for each other (season 3). Sure they have the flirty side, but the fact that Shep was cautious of using that at first but then evoling to using it quite a few times with Elizabeth just goes to show how far they've come. If you understand what I mean.

Time is a powerful thing. Love shows up where you least expect it. Even though they might not know it, they do obviously care about each other very very much. They can't run from this.
And we know that TPTB are obvious to this because of what is said about the HUG in the Siege Pt 3 commentary. They wanted to show that they do care about each other. And they have built on that hug with friendship and such a great bond. The writers know it is there (Gero and Binder particularly) and they aren't about to just forget about it, I'm quite confident.

Oh yes, I agree with you. They didn't get rid of her so they could ship Sheyla, but it had to be one of the reasons. They are annoyed to no end by the Sparky shippers. And, yes it was stated from the beginning that Teyla was to be a "possible love interest" for Shep. Why they backed off in S1, I don't know, but if you can be totally objective you can't miss the set up. Especially in the back half of S3. You are being too logical and if you've read all or even most of the S/W thread you know that I've said the exact same things you said above. But, remember, John and Elizabeth are written just the way they want them to be. We, as shippers, are interpreting them as having or maybe going to have more deep feelings. I'm going to sound like a certain Sheyla shipper, but it's true. TPTB, including both Joe and Torri, have always said from day one that there can never be a relationship between Shep and Liz. I don't think any writer actively support it or has ever written it. It is all perception by us the shippers. Sorry to speak heresy, and I know I'm the last person anyone would expect this from, but you all know I've always hated those "shipper glasses". They have also all said that Teyla and Ronon have a brother/sister relationship no matter how it appears on screen. Have you heard the commentary for Conversion? Those guys saw that

Spoiler:

kiss as being Shep's urges overcoming him. JF himself actually said she looked like she wanted him to "stop it some more". To me that says he still is being told that Teyla will be his love interest. Just not right now.

There was a time last year when the discussion went on very much the same lines as your post. At the time, I cautioned everyone to remember that no matter what it looked like they were doing they could turn the whole thing around on a dime. They've done that. We don't like it. In fact we hate it and will remain vocal in letting them know, but we also have to face reality. They will do what they want. Don't get me wrong, I'm just expressing an opinion. I don't think we'll see canon Sheyla anytime soon, but they will stubbornly continue to push it at us. And I hope someday to be proved wrong. Actually, I also think we need to keep an eye on Travelers.

Spoiler:

Why did they hire such a hot actress to play Larrin? Is Shep about to get lucky. You know in a lot of shows the hero has a recurring snugglebunny that comes back into his life occasionally. Hmmm?

[SazZat]

Well I completely respect your opinions, obviously.

I still think that things can change though. What started in day 1 might not be the same now or in the future.
And I don't believe in shipper glasses, but I for sure as hell know what I see and what's not there. I don't usually ship anyone in shows. The fact that I even saw any ship in Atlantis is a miracle. That is how I know something is there with Sparky. I never would have seen it otherwise. I didn't choose to ship it, it just happened.
Whether we get more than strong friendship is another thing, but I definitely see a strong and caring bond there though. That is for sure. It's how far it goes that is the question.

If i'd seen any sign of Sheyla then that is what I would be shipping. I only ship what I see. If the Sheyla ship is as obvious as you say, then I am obviously blessed in not being able to see it. And that isn't me being biased either because I am very new to the world of Sparky shipping so I've always been very open minded to every possible ship I guess.

But we aren't gonna get cannon ship anyway. 10 years of SG1 and no canon Jack/Sam ship. So there ya go. No need to worry.

And as for Shep and his occasional fling with the alien girlies. Am I the only one who always finds those eps quite cute and adorkable? I hear a lot of people saying they don't like that part of Shep, but I quite like it. At the end of the day they mean nothing to him. It shouldn't be anything to worry about. It's just crazy guy fun.
I also doubt anything with happen there anyway with her.

[parsifal]

10 years of SG1 and no canon Jack/Sam ship.

There's been canon ship; they've just failed to explicitly confirm resolution.

[teknobug5]

I am afraid for Sparky and after what Cooper said, who wouldn't!

The thing I hate the most is I like Carter but I just don't think she should be in Atlantis. Atlantis never should have been a spin-off in the same era. This way, no way of interacting with SG-1.

I'm frustrated with myself because I'm still going to watch it even if it sucks. There is so not good sci-fi on television except for Battlestar Galactica. I used to like SG-1. Before they played with unnecessary deaths. Getting rid of characters like

Spoiler:

Janet, Jonas, Ford, Carson, damn... even Martouf!

Atlantis was fun before they get rid of

Spoiler:

remember that technician who died to save McKay in space, I believe it's the siege 3, Ford, Kolya

In the end if they kill

Spoiler:

Weir

maybe we will get the same mourning Cloud had over Aerith from Final Fantasy, a video game.

[Ruined_puzzle]

Wow and here I was hoping for some Shep angst, but I think realistically Elizabeth will be sent back to Earth. They set it up and I'm not saying it makes sense but it will probably be the only way for everyone to be all OMG SAM YOU ARE SO AWESOME and not hate on Carter.

I've always said that I would watch SGA until they make sheyla canon but I didn't think that tptb/scifi would be stupid enought to actually get rid of Elizabeth. Without her there is no sparky and I don't expect angst like Doctor Who.

Teknobug5 you could always watch Heroes and quit SGA.

PS. I love this thread like woe.

[SazZat]

I've always said that I would watch SGA until they make sheyla canon but I didn't think that tptb/scifi would be stupid enought to actually get rid of Elizabeth. Without her there is no sparky and I don't expect angst like Doctor Who.

If we get angst like Doctor Who then I will need some sort of life boat because there will be localised flooding of my living room...again. That was the saddest thing I've ever watched on TV. I'm a big fan of angst and I thought that was done really well. If we get angst like that then I will be happy to be very sad...if that makes sence.
If people don't know what we are on about then you must watch the last 5-10 minutes of the episode Doomsday of Doctor Who. That is how proper ship angst should be done when I character is being 'deleted'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEk-i3KJFlw

Still though, I'm watching the new series of Doctor Who even though Rose is gone and I hate the new girl. I guess it will be exactly the same for Atlantis. I will watch the new series (hoping we get a good enough dose of angst...and i mean angst that makes me cry) even though most will be without Elizabeth and I'll dislike Sam being in it.

Wow thats a bit of a pattern. My fave female characters being replaced by new girls for eye-candy value. (not that I really don't like sam. I liked her in most SG-1 seasons, but i don't want her taking Elizabeths place in Atlantis) Damn SciFi and their obession with AT.

Ok, so now i've gone from wanting an angsty infirmiry scene to wanting an angsty gateroom goodbye scene in the same sort of way as the ending of DocWho Doomsday. And you know some people say we read too much into UST and stuff, well Sparky has just as much (if not more) UST than The Doctor and Rose had, so there is hope yet. We will at least get some hugging...hopefully some emotion...maybe even some subtle confessions (ya know, the ones that can be interpretted either way friendship/ship).
Team angst and Sparky angst. In the gateroom. Lots of tears...from me at least. That is how it should go.
If Elizabeth is going then they can at least do it properly and give me something to get really emotional over.

[peterl]

Thanks Suzotchka for starting this thread. A lot of us need to get a few things off our chests, and this is a great place to do it. Some of you have hit the nail on the head, I think, by laying the blame for losing Torri square at the feet of SciFi. But IMHO, if TPTB at Bridge had cared enough to fight maybe they could have saved her. In situations like this, you always follow the money. You've got a bunch of suits at SciFi who probably don't even watch their own shows. They just look at demographic charts or go by old information that is accepted as fact but is no longer relevant. For example, that most SciFi fans are 15 year old boys who are social outcasts. Rubbage! All they know is that the ratings were down for the first half of S3 and SOMETHING MUST BE DONE, so in their infinite wisdom they remember what they learned in a marketing 101 class...sex sells and when in doubt change something. Ergo...Carson must die and the "mature" female cast member must go. Now Carter is a fan favorite...a military scientist that's the best of both worlds. So, they can just plug her right into Weir's job...voila...ratings boost. Aren't they geniuses though?

In fact, I would bet that Carter's dialogue will sound to the educated ear and who is more educated than a Weir fan? just like it could have come out of Weir's mouth. Yes, she won't disagree as much with the military guys, but as far as the day to day running of the base, we will get exactly the same scenes as with Weir. Carter and Teyla will become BFF in no time, and Ronon will respect her instantly. John will treat her like he would any higher ranking officer and will become her new errand boy. He'll irritate her with his relaxed command style, and they'll clash, but only a little.

I also think there will be no shipping her with John...not even a hint of it, and the Carter/Mckay attraction will fade away also. They are hoping that after Weir is gone the average fan will forget she ever existed, and I doubt she'll be mentioned by the others.

As far as actually doing ship, I have mixed feelings about that. I have always made it clear, I hope, that I've seen what they were attempting to do with Sheyla from the beginning. I just don't like it or think it will work. I think that's the key to what TPTB just don't get. They think if Elizabeth goes away, all the Sparky fans will move over to the Sheyla thread and live happily in harmony with that crowd. Well, just a little bit of advice from someone who has lived longer than any of them. It's just not going to happen. In reality, I think TPTB think they are doing Sheyla and have been all along. The fact that 3 out of 4 viewers don't seem to know that seems to escape them. So, sadly, I think the painfully awkward moments between those two where it looks like he's interacting with a little sister will continue until sometime in S5 we'll get the most painful moment of all. Oh, but wait, I really doubt there will be an S5, not because of ship but because SciFi just doesn't seem to care if this show succeeds or not.

Frankly, I feel sorry for all the writers and producers and crew at Bridge Studios who are trying to put on the best show they know how but will soon be out of jobs. I agree with whoever said things change. What started out as a delightfully different show with people I could really care about has turned into an irritation that I may not even bother with in the fall.

I think sci fi has aways been fickle in their support and developement of their shows. They seem to have lost the plot with Atlantis

I think it's a cheap strategy: okay, we have to do something now that SG - 1 got cancelled, so let's play the winning card (Carter). Fans love her. And by adding "a little shock" we can stirr things up a litlle bit, add few explosions, space fights and so on, bring new baddies even worse than the Ori... if you ask me it's a bad recepie.

What I loved about early SG - 1 episodes was the team. They were like a family, we got to see their relationships develop, there were so many great moments of fun and friendship and mutual caring about each other. Atlantis doesn't have that, and probbably never will because they keep changing the cast. For me it's a sign that things in the franchise aren't going well, and that they are putting the show on life support, so to speak.

But in the season 3 there were new hopes for the team development. Example: the episode "Common ground". There were few fabulos team - like moments; when they watch those transmisions from Kolya. Everybody is there, they share their concern, all of them trying to do something. We can clearly see who is in charge - it's Eizabeth. Those are so powerful moments, and everybody respects her decisions. There is one moment when Teyla shows her direct support and I loved that. (Why they never developed their relationship? It is fully unlogical. ) There is another moment when Elizabeth sends the team to retrieve John and Ronon repeats something she said earlier to Genii commander radim "No promises". I loved that immensly!! Finally there was some sense of team connection! It looked like somebody did a good piece of writing - finally!!!

So, let's flush all of that down the toilet and start the Stargate: Carter edition.

@Celcool - well, I don't think I'm unlucky. It's great to have that kind of characters at all.

The no promises scene in CG was a great moment, we see a really angry almost vengeful Elizabeth.

[Anuna]

I have an observation to make, regarding Conversion and

Spoiler:

that infamous kiss. Shep's urges overcoming him? Which urges exactly? If TPTB wanted that to look like his deep wish for love, they have to take some lessons in psychology of abuse. That kiss was close to sexual assault. In fact, it was an assault. And Teyla didn't seem to be very happy about it. As for the rest of the episode, maybe rodney should have been the one to see him trough the mental and physical deterioration if they didn't want to deliver any Shep/Weir shippy scenes.

And as for Shep and alien girls... that is very adorkable!!! Mostly because he looks stupid doing all that Kirking.