Wraith Defenders Club

[toomuchcaf]

Good night Wraith Cake, pleasant dreams. And it was a pleasure debating with you.

[dasNdanger]

Yeah, I should be in bed...

But...

The 'murder' thing. I don't see the Wraith feeding as murder, but what Shep did to Bob - THAT was murder.

Now, when Wraith just kill during a culling...not sure what to call that. To the Wraith, it's hunting, to the victims, it's more like war, or an invasion. Murder - to me - is something different...it's 'criminal', and what the Wraith do isn't criminal. In fact, not sure they would have such a concept among themselves, since they feed on one another and are not prosecuted for it.

I mean, think about it...Wraith will kill each other and think nothing of it - it's part of their survival instinct. So, of COURSE they see nothing wrong with killing humans for food...there is no moral issue for them, just as there is no moral issue for a cat to kill a mouse.

It is a difficult thing to work out. One thing I'm afraid of - from Mallozzi's comments - is that they see fans are defensive of the Wraith and their right to feed and live - and so they are developing a more sinister side to them that we can't defend - one where there will be no question about their villainy. A sort of, 'Take THAT, Wraith fans! Let's see you defend them now!'

And I don't mind bad Wraith - I love them as they are. I just want to see SOME find a place in the gray area - like Todd last year - without ultimately becoming a must-kill villain. But I don't see that happening.

As far as Wraith having a conscience...well, again, hard to say. Just because they can reason, and are aware that their actions are not acceptable to others, they will still be overwhelmed by the need to satisfy their hunger. And since Mallozzi said that they need to feed on humans to have their regenerative powers, then I can't blame them for not looking for an alternative.

I guess my biggest problem is that - since this is sci fi - I'm not all uptight about being a human and thus 'Wraith food'. I will never be food for Wraith because they are not real...so I can detach myself from the whole 'but they kill people!' thing. And, by doing so, I can see other possibilities. The cloning of food is one...finding an alternative, but still feeding occasionally, is another...and my favorite. I mean, it's just such an interesting concept to have this guy around, eating like you and me...but every once in a while he sneaks out into the back alleyways, and sucks on a human. Kinda like a bad habit, or a dirty little secret. Everyone knows he does it, but no one is going to challenge him because they need him around, and they need him 'happy'. And besides...he's *only* taking out the criminal-types that lurk in the shadows, right? (Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.) I just love this idea...but you'd have to have a GOOD reason to look the other way when he does feed. The Wraith would have to be too valuable to kill...and you'd have to trust that he was ONLY preying on criminals. Oh, and then you'd have to cover it up. It would kind of remind me of S.H.E.I.L.D. cleaning up after one of Wolverine's killing sprees.

Of course, such a thing may be too dark for even SGA...and too complicated. They tend to like things all neat and tidy...and easy. And it would be a much harder scenario to work out and make believable, especially for those fans who are SO easily upset by Wraith feeding (but not by the humans killing their own...go figger). Oh well...I'll just play out my own stories in my head - they're so cool I wish I could put them down in writing, but I can't.

Nights.


das

[toomuchcaf]

Just a bit more on the whole morallity debate.

Have been doing a management course for uni.

They go over the stages of moral development, which are 6 stages, divided into 3 levels. 1. Preconvention, 2. Convention, and 3. Principled. This is only part of what influences ethical behaviour. The other factors are individual characteristics, issue intensity, culture, and structural variables.
But here is the kicker, the moral development stages do not go over about following right and wrong, but about what is lawful, and what you do according to that law.

Individual characteristics is made of up values and ego strength. Values being basic convictions about what is right and wrong. Ego strength is a personality measure of the strength of a person's convictions.

Going by this framework, it could be said that

Individual characteristics.
1. Their basic convictions is about power. They have the power, they need to feed, therefore it is right for them to take human life. There is no right or wrong about murder.
2. They certainly have a high ego strength.

But they do have morals, according to their standards.
Moral Development.
They would be at the conventional stage 4 (as is the majority of human adults). - maintaining conventional order by fulfilling obligations to which you have agreed.

(Preconventional stage 1. is sticking to rules to avoid physical punishment, 2. is following rules only when doing so is in your immediate interest. Conventional, stage 3. is living up to what is expected by people close to you.)
The wraiths morallity would be based on rules that exist in the hive. Therefore it could be argued that wraith have morals, just not by our sense of meaning.

Culture strength - well, the hive certainly has a strong influence.
Issue intensity - if they don't feed, they die, so pretty intense.
Structural variables - the design of the culture/organisation/group - is set up in a way to allow them to feed.

Taking into account the above variables, it could be argued that the wraith feeding on humans is the right thing for them to do as a species

[Degilwen]

@ Wraithlord Thank you that you like my wall stuff and that

@ das you are right I don´t think that Wraith are murder but what is with Shepp and co? The humans kill the Wraith. Wraith don´t kill because we humans are the "Hamburgers" of the Wraith or? I mean we are the food of this Individuum....
Ok here a new pic:

[LiquidSky]

The 'murder' thing. I don't see the Wraith feeding as murder, but what Shep did to Bob - THAT was murder. das

Not only did Sheppard gunned down Bob in cold blood, he did it without hesitation even when Ford said we have gone to far. yeah, that was murder .

LS

Now, when Wraith just kill during a culling...not sure what to call that. To the Wraith, it's hunting, to the victims, it's more like war, or an invasion. Murder - to me - is something different...it's 'criminal', and what the Wraith do isn't criminal. In fact, not sure they would have such a concept among themselves, since they feed on one another and are not prosecuted for it.das

I wonder if the Wraith do have a legal system?

LS

I mean, think about it...Wraith will kill each other and think nothing of it - it's part of their survival instinct. So, of COURSE they see nothing wrong with killing humans for food...there is no moral issue for them, just as there is no moral issue for a cat to kill a mouse. das:

We are applying human principle and moral concepts to the Wraith. Some of us don't think nothing when we ate a cow.

LS

It is a difficult thing to work out. One thing I'm afraid of - from Mallozzi's comments - is that they see fans are defensive of the Wraith and their right to feed and live - and so they are developing a more sinister side to them that we can't defend - one where there will be no question about their villainy. A sort of, 'Take THAT, Wraith fans! Let's see you defend them now!'

And I don't mind bad Wraith - I love them as they are. I just want to see SOME find a place in the gray area - like Todd last year - without ultimately becoming a must-kill villain. But I don't see that happening.das:

I really hope that we see more diversity among the Wraith. Wither they are good or, bad Wraith. Much like the Klingon in Star Trek. This would give a more interesting aspect among the Wraith

LS

As far as Wraith having a conscience...well, again, hard to say. Just because they can reason, and are aware that their actions are not acceptable to others, they will still be overwhelmed by the need to satisfy their hunger. And since Mallozzi said that they need to feed on humans to have their regenerative powers, then I can't blame them for not looking for an alternative.das:

If humans had to eat a certain animal that would give them regenerative power and that animal ended on the endanger list would some human give that up?

LS

I guess my biggest problem is that - since this is sci fi - I'm not all uptight about being a human and thus 'Wraith food'. I will never be food for Wraith because they are not real...so I can detach myself from the whole 'but they kill people!' thing. And, by doing so, I can see other possibilities.

das:

That's what I love about sci-fi you can have these debates and defend you favourite characters. No if the Wraith were real I too wouldn't want to be food to them just like I wouldn't want to be food to a lion.

LS

[LiquidSky]

@ Wraithlord Thank you that you like my wall stuff and that

@ das you are right I don´t think that Wraith are murder but what is with Shepp and co? The humans kill the Wraith. Wraith don´t kill because we humans are the "Hamburgers" of the Wraith or? I mean we are the food of this Individuum....
Ok here a new pic:

Hi Degi: Nice wallpaper and signature and, I like how you said that humans are hamburgers for the Wraith

LS

[Wraith Cake]

[QUOTE=LiquidSky;8344145]Not only did Sheppard gunned down Bob in cold blood, he did it without hesitation even when Ford said we have gone to far. yeah, that was murder . LS
[quote]
The justification Sheppard has it "They were in a state of war" and "technically" by this I mean "legally" he is correct. Many religions associate war with murder, no matter how justified. Others would argue it is self defense.

I wonder if the Wraith do have a legal system? LS

We'll probably find out in season five, we do know they have an "honour" system.

We are applying human principle and moral concepts to the Wraith. Some of us don't think nothing when we ate a cow.
LS

I love cows, but I really couldn't have one to tea. The wraith could have a nice "cuppa" with us that's for sure.

I really hope that we see more diversity among the Wraith. Wither they are good or, bad Wraith. Much like the Klingon in Star Trek. This would give a more interesting aspect among the Wraith LS

I think we will for sure

If humans had to eat a certain animal that would give them regenerative power and that animal ended on the endanger list would some human give that up? LS

No, of course not. That doesn't mean it's right, or that I won't lead to further problems either with ecosystem or the individuals who continue to do this.

That's what I love about sci-fi you can have these debates and defend you favourite characters. No if the Wraith were real I too wouldn't want to be food to them just like I wouldn't want to be food to a lion. LS

Exactly, I love sci fi for this very reason. Good sci fi is "thought provoking".


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Just a bit more on the whole morallity debate.

Have been doing a management course for uni.

They go over the stages of moral development, which are 6 stages, divided into 3 levels. 1. Preconvention, 2. Convention, and 3. Principled. This is only part of what influences ethical behaviour. The other factors are individual characteristics, issue intensity, culture, and structural variables.
But here is the kicker, the moral development stages do not go over about following right and wrong, but about what is lawful, and what you do according to that law.

Individual characteristics is made of up values and ego strength. Values being basic convictions about what is right and wrong. Ego strength is a personality measure of the strength of a person's convictions.

Going by this framework, it could be said that

Individual characteristics.
1. Their basic convictions is about power. They have the power, they need to feed, therefore it is right for them to take human life. There is no right or wrong about murder.
2. They certainly have a high ego strength.

But they do have morals, according to their standards.
Moral Development.
They would be at the conventional stage 4 (as is the majority of human adults). - maintaining conventional order by fulfilling obligations to which you have agreed.

(Preconventional stage 1. is sticking to rules to avoid physical punishment, 2. is following rules only when doing so is in your immediate interest. Conventional, stage 3. is living up to what is expected by people close to you.)
The wraiths morallity would be based on rules that exist in the hive. Therefore it could be argued that wraith have morals, just not by our sense of meaning.

Culture strength - well, the hive certainly has a strong influence.
Issue intensity - if they don't feed, they die, so pretty intense.
Structural variables - the design of the culture/organisation/group - is set up in a way to allow them to feed.

Taking into account the above variables, it could be argued that the wraith feeding on humans is the right thing for them to do as a species

I'll respond to you in two places because it's too long.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

Just a bit more on the whole morallity debate.

Have been doing a management course for uni.

They go over the stages of moral development, which are 6 stages, divided into 3 levels. 1. Preconvention, 2. Convention, and 3. Principled….following right and wrong, but about what is lawful, and what you do according to that law.

Corporate ethics...hmmm...corporation morality huh....oxymoron eh? (heh, heh, heh I'm just joshin' ye)
North America's (Canada, US, Mexico) and I believe most Western European nations' laws are based on Judeao/Christian principles. Obviously they differ from nation to nation. There is so much research out there on moral development, how we get it, how is it conditioned into us, is it an internal moral compass or is it primarily learned bla bla bla. I'll mention more about this later. One thing is for sure, issues of morality and ethics are a by product of sentient/intelligent minds--the greater the ability to see all the combinations and permutations of a scenario, the greater one feels able to control the outcomes. Thereby the greater the responsibility one has/may feel the need to assistant the outcome. In other words, if you see a car barrelling down the road toward a child that has just stepped out on to the road, (unless your freeze because of some type of childhood trauma) chances are you'll pull the child back from the road.

Individual characteristics is made of up values and ego strength. Values being basic convictions about what is right and wrong. Ego strength is a personality measure of the strength of a person's convictions.

Also deep convictions can come from various places experience, reasoned thinking and learned behaviour.


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Originally posted by Toomuchcaf
Going by this framework, it could be said that

Individual characteristics.
1. Their basic convictions is about power….2. They certainly have a high ego strength.

But they do have morals, according to their standards.
Moral Development….is living up to what is expected by people close to you.)

There are a few things we do know about the wraith, and I suppose this is a question we all have: are they capable of altruistic acts? Various behavioural psychologists (who's background is Freud, Heinz Hartmann etc.) believed that children are essentially "ego-centric" they only have concepts of the "ID" the need to support "their" needs only. However, there have been many other studies that have over turned this concept. A recent one looked at the behaviour of toddlers in everyday situations. When asked to assist with common chores, toddlers frequently exhibited "altruistic" behaviour--they completed tasks without any immediate gain for themselves. The behaviour seemed to revolve around the satisfaction of 'helping' complete the task, rather than the task being for themselves. The behaviourist explain that this is an evolutionary by product of co-operation: The larger, and more intelligent the being the more need there is for co-operative behaviour, but altruism is not isolated to mammals. Most "hive" insect species regularly engage in altruistic acts: ants will kill themselves and use their bodies to form a bridge so the others in their hive can cross a water way to food. Altruistic behaviour "for the greater good" is exhibited in "all" social creatures. And we have seen this with the wraith. Todd exhibited this three times (altruistic behaviour toward Sheppard), and every wraith captured believed that his fellow wraith would risk life and limb to rescue him.

The wraiths morality would be based on rules that exist in the hive. Therefore it could be argued that wraith have morals, just not by our sense of meaning.

I think they certainly do have morals, they have a sense of honour, and are continually shocked and saddened when they are betrayed. Todd speaks of this in the two episodes before BAMSR and Michael is horrified that he has been betrayed by his queen.

Taking into account the above variables, it could be argued that the wraith feeding on humans is the right thing for them to do as a species

I think the more likely explanation is not that they do not, nor cannot see that feeding on humanity is problematic (on many many levels, morally, logistically, ethically etc), I think they are a lot like us—unless they are forced to change why not keep the status quo?
I mean how many of us “actively” try to end child hunger in underdeveloped nations? Not many. Sure we feel bad, and sure we think it’s an awful situation, but typically unless you have been there and seen the issue first hand, you are less likely to enact change. Todd, through no desire on his part has been forced to see humanity in a way he chose not to or had not the opportunity to see before, and it’s interesting that some of his first comments to Sheppard are “you are a lot like wraith, more than you know”.
It’s no coincidents that Todd is the one to build an alliance with the Lanteans or to think of an alternate food source: he’s been forced to see us for who we are a lot like the wraith.


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Question: who says we're more like the wraith they or us?




WK

[toomuchcaf]

Off on a tangent. This could be discussed later. If the wraith had an artistic side, and created works of art, would this affect their viewpoint of Wraith having the right to feed on humans (I think it holds possibilities )

[toomuchcaf]

Question: who says we're more like the wraith they or us?

WK

Alright, this would go to the wraith.

1. The wraith are not hung up about being better or godlike. They believe they are the more powerful, and have the more might. But this does not mean they view humans as mindless creatures. They do see humans as intelligent, and as they have no preconceptions (that we know of), would be more likely to see similarities between the two species and admit to it, as long as it does not affect their position of strength.

2. The humans in general view the wraith as monsters. This affects how they view the wraith, and would never admit to parrallels in their nature, behaviour or beliefs. To do so would be to say, I am part monster. If, however, the humans were willing to admit the similarities, they would have to admit to themselves that the wraith are not entirely evil. Again, this is something the humans would find very hard to accept. It would go against all their previous convictions, conditionings and experiences that the wraith are pure evil. Such things are very hard to put aside.

[toomuchcaf]

Thanks W K for the feed back on the morality model.
And yes, corporate morality / ethics does seem to be an oxymoron

[GoSpikey]

For your Queens, only!



And me? Spamming? Nooooo....


John/Todd, anyone?