Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

You're right in all your assumptions. But only way I see the Wraith skinning the humans is choosing those on which they cannot feed, like Ronnan. Then the clash with the feeding is avoided.
About being sadistic. Sure. They would not even saw that as sadism. I remember once seeing a human male (country boy) who decided to kill a sheep and roast the whole animal for some holidays. In some European cultures this is still done. Usually people try to make the killing as painless as possible to the animal, however this man did not do so. Instead, prior to the painful kill he was "playing" with his dog (German shepherd) by dragging the sheep close to the dog and than taking the animal away just before dog had chance to bite something more than wool. The sheep was alive and terrified, and after this "play" he cut the animal throat letting it bleed to death. However, he did not saw that as sadism, but fun. He could not even comprehend that the sheep could actually feel something. (After that I could not eat the lamb for decade, even now I have second thoughts when I'm faced with it.)
So notion that the Wraith would skin children alive, is quite possible if they would not consider that waste of the good food.

Blech!!! blech, blech---so sad. Yes, I was thinking the same as you about the Ronon thing, "Runners". Probably after running them down, their skin would be only good for making into a coat. Yuk, yuk yuk.

Now that I have two lovely little kitty cats, I couldn't imagine hurting another animal cruelly. I am not a vegetarian, but what I would call a conscientious omnivore--nothing baby, nothing omnivore, nothing intelligent. So this basically means salmon. But the milk industry is far worse. After Masterlings baby calf stories, I have refused to drink milk or eat butter cheese or cream from any other source other than the small town farmers I know--this is darn hard, but it is my responsibility to do this. I don't blame you for not wanting to eat sheep for ten years after this. People can be so senseless eh?

WK

[Sevenofnine]

I know! I was like, "Todd are you a masochist? Where's your self-respect, dude!?" It must be love. But then I decided, for my own respect of Todd, to put more of a warning tinge to that last line. Not necessarily that he'll remember the favor, but rather all that transpired and how it transpired. Gives it a little more "mwahahahaha" tinge to it. *shrugs* I know, I may be totally deluded, but I'm ok with that! It helps me sleep at night.

Yeh I agree, I think Todd was referring to the whole event, I went and rewatched the whole epp again & the last bit, was like looking at Todd - he seemed a bit defeated, subdued, but he still stood proud and tall, (and sexy), IMO I think Todd will remember all that has transpired - including where Shepp said he did not owe Todd anything, that must have hurt.

As far as Ronon is concerned - he is equilavent to a drone - with the mind of - all he could say was - I could live with that - (the destruction of the wraith / hive ship etc).

Kellar I felt was a little cold towards Todd, but was upset that she had caused their demise. She wanted to fix the problem, but wasn't sure how.

Todd really should have done small trials before putting his complete crew through the treatment - like one trial - wait a couple of months and see what happens etc, instead of rushing into it. Bit by bit. Maybe he will learn that haste makes waste.

Shepp is two faced but I also think he does not want to appear weak in front of Teyla & Ronon.

I felt a little disturbed by this epp. I felt for Todd - I felt so sorry for him, I really do hope he is restored back to normal. It would be an experience that he had to face for progress maybe.

Seven

[StarOcean]

I've been mulling over Todd's reaction to Sheppard in Infection and The Lost Tribe.

Spoilers about Infection...

Spoiler:

In regards to Todd's hurt over Sheppard's statement of, "I don't owe you anything."

Pure filling-in-possibilities (that has no merit ) about Wraith culture that the writers are not doing here: I'm wondering if that hurt could be the result of how Wraith relationships work. That giving and receiving, debts and repayments, is how their personal relationships works. It's how they understand each other and know where they stand. Sheppard saying that he didn't owe Todd was essentially saying that they're over.

Ok, now something with more support: More likely, because of the way JF and CH acted, I think Todd wasn't talking about debts and their scorecard when he said that Sheppard owed him. I think Todd was talking about themselves. That Sheppard owed it to the relationship between them. He was really saying, "You owe it to us." And Sheppard knew it. His expression and eyes, and the way he kept looking at Todd as he was lead away by the marines, showed that he wasn't happy with his reply. He knows he just told Todd that, whatever it is between them, he decided it doesn't mean anything to him. I'm also thinking that, personally and emotionally, part of the reason why Todd's so willing to do the gene therapy is because he feels he owes it to Sheppard to try to find another way to survive.

I'm starting to think Laura Dove has the best interpretation about Todd's reaction in The Lost Tribe.

Spoiler:

If I remember right, she said that a possible reason why Todd refused to listen to Sheppard, which seemed quite unreasonable of his character, is because he didn't want to be hurt again.

I think that might be true because Todd acted so hurt by Sheppard. In the Wraith cell, Todd was facing the wall, with his back toward the bars. That reads as defensive behavior to me; hiding his pain and dealing with it away from the outside world. His remark that Sheppard couldn't let him be makes me think that at the moment, he'd rather Sheppard go away because he brought him pain. Todd is really acting like Sheppard made him cry. It's such a human reaction.

Which brings me to this question. Why would Todd act like that in The Lost Tribe? Did the betrayal by a member of his crew in Spoils of War hurt him that much? Was that loss of trust with Sheppard in The Seer so damaging? I'm wondering, how is it that Sheppard is so important to Todd that he can hurt him like that? Is Todd really all alone there among his own people?

Poor Todd.

[Sevenofnine]

Spoiler:

Or they did some more genetic manipulation on themselves to perfect themselves.
Sorry I'm still against this "evolution of the Wraith" theory.

Spoiler:

ME too - I think they were created by the ancients in an experiment looking into longevity and healing while they studied ascension. Look at the eyes - they are feline - bugs don't have feline eyes (well the bugs I've seen don't have pupils and irises etc) they are too human. I think in percentages they have a small amount of iratus bug DNA, feline DNA, and larger human DNA. If any remembers the show Dark Angel - where DNA was incorporated in fetuses to produce humans with certain animal skill sets. Maybe something like this happen with an ancient scientist doing illegal experiments and he inadvertently created another race!

Seven

[Sevenofnine]

I just did a quick read through of the transcript - and you know what really annoys me - when they not the characters but in between conversation when they say "it"
eg:
TODD: Nothing's responding the way it should. It's almost as if ...

(It stops and thinks.)

SHEPPARD: What?
and

(Roaring in fury, Todd charges towards John, its right hand raised to strike. Two marines raise their rifles and aim them at it, while John stares at it impassively. It stops just short of him, its hand still raised, then looks at its palm as it realises that even if it wanted to, it couldn't harm John that way. Grimacing, it lowers its hand and glares at him.)

TODD: You owe me this, Sheppard.

This really BUGS me!

Seven

[dolfynnchick]

I just did a quick read through of the transcript - and you know what really annoys me - when they not the characters but in between conversation when they say "it"
eg:
TODD: Nothing's responding the way it should. It's almost as if ...

(It stops and thinks.)

SHEPPARD: What?
and

(Roaring in fury, Todd charges towards John, its right hand raised to strike. Two marines raise their rifles and aim them at it, while John stares at it impassively. It stops just short of him, its hand still raised, then looks at its palm as it realises that even if it wanted to, it couldn't harm John that way. Grimacing, it lowers its hand and glares at him.)

TODD: You owe me this, Sheppard.

This really BUGS me!

Seven

Every transcript I've ever read refers to the wraith, whether they've been named or not, as "it"s instead of "he"s or "she"s. It's a way of dehumanizing and lowering them. In Common Ground, before Sheppard realizes what Todd is, he even refers to him as "that damn thing".

[GoSpikey]

Accept Todd proposal to go with the Hive to another planet. At least, then the death of the crew would not look like sneaky jackass behavior. And the writers could find possibility for the team to use the jumper to leave the Hive and "save themselves".

Well, the jumper was kinda gone, I think... If that hole was the old Dart Bay, or something that spread out from there, to make the ship's hull unstable...

I guess, to be a bit more sure, we'd have to compare the picture of the damaged hive, the one with the line over it, with the plans of the Hive ship, where it says which part is what.


Don't know who said it anymore, but Ronon Dex is NOT immune to Wraith feeding.

Though, if you've watched Broken Ties, that mistake shouldn't be made.

Every transcript I've ever read refers to the wraith, whether they've been named or not, as "it"s instead of "he"s or "she"s. It's a way of dehumanizing and lowering them. In Common Ground, before Sheppard realizes what Todd is, he even refers to him as "that damn thing".

Well, the Wraith are to the humans of the PG nothing more than beasts that are very instinctual. So they refer to them as 'it'. They also never show any compassion to the human race, so that's one way of dealing with them, lowering them.

Kolya also says "Take it back to its cell." or something, referring to Todd in CG.

[Sparrow_hawk]

O.K. gang, it's one of those posts where half of the discussion is behind spoilers. All of the spoilers are related to Infection, so if you saw it and are interested in discussion, just open all the darn things up before you read.

I thought that line was ridiculous.

Spoiler:

Sure Sheppard is saving people. Usually by TAKING lives. Those tools are used for killing. It's not the same thing as being a doctor. I really thought that Keller and Todd scene was absurd, it didn't make sense at all. First, because she has a romanticized view of Sheppard's character, which I think is inaccurate.

I think her comment may have more to do with a military physician's view of a soldier's job than a "romanticized" view of Sheppard as a person.

I'll "unspoiler" this because I think it is worthy of open discussion and does not give away plot points. If anyone disagrees, let me know and I'll come back and mask it.

Secondly, her compassion speech had little relevance to a species that can't afford compassion to other species. There's only so much they can feel pity or sympathy for. Compassion practically equates with starvation. I also feel that she's conflating compassion and understanding together. You can be understanding of a plight, and still lacking compassion. Or misplace and force your compassion in the force of decision making. (Hello, Michae/Allies/No Man's Land/! Keller's really channeling Beckett.)

And she can't make a call on compassion among Wraiths themselves, seeing as how little is known.

You make some excellent points. I had more the feeling that she was trying to explain to Todd the human viewpoint of compassion, not chide him for the Wraith's lack of compassion. I agree that compassion has no place in the Wraith's current culture, but if the treatment to eliminate their need to feed on humans if ever perfected (which now seems pretty unlikely) their culture would hopefully evolve to a point where compassion should become a positive trait, not something to be avoided as a sign of weakness.

Spoiler:

And Todd should be aware of compassion because he obviously cares about his crew. And while Sheppard may feel some sympathy for Todd's plight, what's between them is about honor, debts, guilt, and knowing one another. Compassion is the least of it. Someone brought up Stockholm's Syndrome and I agree with it.

Spoiler:

I think Todd's concern for his crew is not so much compassion as a military commander's concern over the loss of a scarce and much needed resource - his troops.

The Stockholm syndrome comparison is interesting -- Todd does feel a bond with Sheppard because of their shared imprisonment, a bond that Sheppard does not feel or one that he is trying hard to deny. It certainly colors all of their interactions.

Spoiler:

I hope Todd doesn't fall for Keller's pro-Sheppard talk. That's not the way to understanding Sheppard. It's misinforming Todd and I wonder if that's the reason why he was so "appreciative" of Sheppard letting him go. Not to mention that Todd isn't aware that Sheppard killed his crew. Really, I think at this point Todd is quite vulnerable to Sheppard emotionally. Sheppard can really manipulate Todd if he wants to.

Spoiler:

I'm not entirely sure that Todd was "appreciative" of Sheppard's actions. He was very subdued in that last scene. But I think "I will not forget this" is open to interpretation. Sheppard kept his work and proved that he still could be an honorable man, but Todd may also be implying that he will not forget anything that happened -- including Sheppard's refusal to take action to save his crew and ship.

Spoiler:

Really like the Todd and Sheppard scenes. I'm not sure if I want them to ever be friends though because I'm starting to think that it would be unhealthy for Todd. Yes, Todd is a member of an enemy race, but he is an ally who will work with them as a means to benefit both of them. And Todd has tech at his disposable. But the thing is, Sheppard really holds a lot of emotional power over Todd. And he actually used it this episode. Todd's at a disadvantage and Keller's Sheppard speech doesn't help.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I like them better when they are at odds with one another. The snarky stuff between them was very enjoyable. I really think that Woolsey has a better understanding of Todd's potential than Sheppard.

[Starry Waters]

As far as Ronon is concerned - he is equilavent to a drone - with the mind of - all he could say was - I could live with that - (the destruction of the wraith / hive ship etc).

Kellar I felt was a little cold towards Todd, but was upset that she had caused their demise. She wanted to fix the problem, but wasn't sure how.

Seven

I like Ronan as a kind of Teal'c character, but I think you are right. Ronan is more of a drone character. I like this insight into him. He's just so consumed with hate it actually reduces him to this. At least he's upfront though in his hate. Everyone knows exactly where he stands so that he never appears sneaky or two-faced. No one would ever mistake Ronan for a friend if he wasn't one.

Don't get me started on Keller. LOL I'll save my hate for the anti-Keller thread. I will give one little piece though that a friend of mine said that I agree with. "She [Keller] just doesn't like to get her hands dirty even though she's involved in bio warfare, and that's what the retrovirus is even though it's not supposed to 'kill'. Fine, it's a war for survival but I wish they would just say it like it is, be up front... Honestly there is No Ethical Way to use biology to fight a war, plain and simple. Bio warfare, testing on living subjects, hybrids, Michael, all of it - not ethical; come to terms with it and move on or KNOCK IT OFF. Sheesh.The ends do not justify the means. The means define the end." I wouldn't mind what they are doing so much if they were actually working with someone like Todd but it's just irresponsible to me to come up with stuff and then say "I stand by my test results" when you don't even have half the information you need about another race to really work on it. (Okay, I'll stop. LOL It's probably time to go visit the anti-Keller thread now.)

Spoiler:

ME too - I think they were created by the ancients in an experiment looking into longevity and healing while they studied ascension. Look at the eyes - they are feline - bugs don't have feline eyes (well the bugs I've seen don't have pupils and irises etc) they are too human. I think in percentages they have a small amount of iratus bug DNA, feline DNA, and larger human DNA. If any remembers the show Dark Angel - where DNA was incorporated in fetuses to produce humans with certain animal skill sets. Maybe something like this happen with an ancient scientist doing illegal experiments and he inadvertently created another race!

Seven

On a personal level, I've always been intrigued with this idea. The Iratus bug theory has always seemed kind of shaky to me. (Leksa, didn't you tell us that in the evolutionary process predators cannot take on prey characteristics or am I pulling what you said out of context?) It's not canon but it just makes sense for me that it's an Ancient experiment gone wrong; that a group of Ancient scientist weren't really wanting to ascend but did want a longer life etc. and tried to tap into some kind of ascension energy but it didn't turn out the way they hoped.

I just did a quick read through of the transcript - and you know what really annoys me - when they not the characters but in between conversation when they say "it"

This really BUGS me!

Seven

Agreed. I found it very annoying too when I first read the transcripts.

[Laura Dove]

Not that I want to draw the ire of the Wraith Defenders Club down upon myself, but lets say for the sake of argument what exactly was Sheppard supposed to do to save the rest of the Wraith crew?

Don't worry, we won't eat you. At least not while we're not hungry.

Spoiler:

Obviously, he couldn't have prevented the hive to break in half, so he couldn't have prevented the death of the entire crew still in stasis. However, at the time he ordered McKay to plan their murder by disabling the pods fail-safes, he didn't know they were about to die anyway. He could have decided to shoot the warriors in their pods, and only the warriors. Or to only disable the fail-safes on the warrior pods. Later, when Todd came up with his idea of letting an iratus queen feed on him, Sheppard could have offered to use Atlantis' gate to send the sick faced wraith to a suitable planet, since the hive was too damaged to jump into hyperspace. As Todd accuses him: "At least do me the courtesy of being honest. This is not about not you not wanting to risk a jump to hyperspace on a damaged ship. You do not want me to go because I'll be restoring the lives of hundreds of unhealthy Wraith, including myself."

The plan might not have worked, all those wraith might have still died, it doesn't matter. What matters were Sheppard's intentions and behaviour towards Todd.

Agreed. Though, whenever a society has technology and refuses to use it for the good, (meaning I believe there are some universal issues that are good and evil--*some* meaning very few, but some), they are culpable.
[... snip for size]
Have the wraith always been as desperate as they have been in the last five years? No. Absolutely not. They have been living quite well and have had the technology to change, they merely have not seen the need to do so--this is evil.

I understand, but what is "good" is a very tricky question, even regarding life and death. What is "good", to let someone agonise for days, weeks, months, by refusing to take their life? Or on the contrary, to put an end to their suffering? Is it "good" to manipulate human DNA in order to improve the species? Or is eugenics unacceptable even when it only involves tweaking embryos? Is it "good" to grant every human the right to reproduce and raise children, regardless of their physical or psychological condition? Or is it bad because it taints the species as a whole?

Of course, I do have my own personal beliefs. Interestingly, being against eugenics also means that I'm very reluctant to accuse wraith of not having altered their own DNA to get rid of human feeding...

Actually, the only universal good I recognise is "apply to others the same rules you apply to yourselves". In that respect, the wraith are somewhat bad (they wouldn't make runners of their own kind; they are not worse than Earth humans IRL, though), but the humans are much worse (especially the Atlanteans: Double standards is their second nature).

I understand, you feel strongly about this, and there is nothing wrong with that--however are you interested in "reading" the story differently? Meaning, acknowledging that your understanding is merely a "theory of understanding" not the only understanding. In other words, a reasonable argument should hold just as much water, if we are to truly respect each other's points of view here.

Of course I'm interested in other views: I would only claim to hold the absolute truth if I were the writer. However, I had the impression that you (generic you) were contradicting in-show statements with real-life arguments. If I read too fast and misunderstood the discussion about wraith evolving from the iratus bug, sorry, I'll blame the several pages of posts.

Anyway, if the point is to criticise the writers (in)ability to write credible science, especially biology in this case, well, then, there's not so much an argument because I completely agree! If you want to point out the many inconsistencies there are in SGA, go ahead.

However, that doesn't mean these things that were clearly stated on show are not "true" within the SGA universe. Some things are unclear and left to interpretation, but this one was emphasised by several different characters in several occasions. Wraith evolution may, or may not, be artificial (the Ancients had incredibly advanced technology, but not so much wisdom ), but at the end of the day, wraith did evolve from the iratus bug to which human DNA was added and they are still closer to the bug than to humans, because both Beckett and Michael clearly stated as such. Although I admit that "Infection" changed things somewhat,

Spoiler:

namely Todd's speech. I'll have to watch it again to try and extract its meaning. Could the evolution have occurred the opposite way? Or something else?

What you are speaking about is an Authorial reading of the story--where there is some indication within the story itself (not a direct line on the hello-phone to all the writers), what the author intended. But remember this is just an interpretation.
[... snip again for size]

Spoiler:

See the thing is, whenever someone states (not necessarily you--anyone could say this) that "I accept what Becket said" and "I accept what is shown/said on screen" implies that I do not, or that others do not.
I've never said anything about not accepting what Becket said--this would not be a reasonable "reading" of the story. Again, the issue isn't what is said, it is what is "meant" and what is "understood" that must also be important.

Exactly, I expect arguments to be backed-up with in-show evidences or at least clues. I really got the impression that in this discussion, you (generic you again) did not believe that wraith "are still much closer to the bug creature that attacked Major Sheppard than to us" (Beckett statement in "The Gift"). Finding another interpretation to this sentence is a valid point, saying "no I believe they're not, because everything else is very humanoid about them" is not IMO.

In fact, I don't think real-life science make good points here, because we are discussing a TV show, not the real-life universe. They may be a guidance, but when a show has such an history of bad science and overall inconsistencies, then, well... if true science (whether it's genetics or linguistics) contradict repeated clear statements made by the characters, we have no choice but to look for an other interpretation, that doesn't contradict the show itself.

The danger with interpretation of a fictional work is to try and make sense where there is none. And to be honest, SGA often doesn't make sense: Things are only there because they're "cool". As much as I love it, I'm the first to admit that Stargate is terrible sci-fi.

I understand it's hard. Hey, I'm a scientist at core too! This is where suspension of disbelief comes into place, but the more "impossible" or self-contradicting assertions we get, the harder it becomes. I try not to concentrate too much on it, but honestly, sometimes I reach my limits. If I can find an interpretation that reconciles my interpretation grid of the world (in this case, science) and what is shown on-show, I eagerly take it. But sometimes I just can't, because the illogicality is so blatant it requires an explanation that is too far-fetched for my taste. So far, I managed to cope with these things that seem absurd, or simply to not thing too much about it. There may come a time when the annoyance overcomes my enjoyment... At this point, I'll simply stop watching, I suppose.

Spoiler:

I hope Todd doesn't fall for Keller's pro-Sheppard talk. That's not the way to understanding Sheppard. It's misinforming Todd and I wonder if that's the reason why he was so "appreciative" of Sheppard letting him go. Not to mention that Todd isn't aware that Sheppard killed his crew. Really, I think at this point Todd is quite vulnerable to Sheppard emotionally. Sheppard can really manipulate Todd if he wants to.

I completely agree, especially with this paragraph. I don't remember who suggested that Todd suffers from Stockholm syndrome, but it makes a lot of sense. Not that I like it, though: I just HATE it when the supposed heroes behave like pure bad guys.

I just did a quick read through of the transcript - and you know what really annoys me - when they not the characters but in between conversation when they say "it"
This really BUGS me!

Oh I agree so much! Spikey is right, wraith have been objectified several times by the characters themselves (Kolya in "Common Ground", Larrin in "BAMSR" are the two examples that come to mind). Often, especially in early seasons, I can't really understand whether they are saying "it" without pronouncing the -t or "he" without pronouncing the h-. I'm pretty sure all the Atlantis expedition, even Ronon, now uses he/she when talking about a clearly seen faced wraith.

Anyway, that doesn't mean people have to the same in transcripts!

Spoiler:

I'm not entirely sure that Todd was "appreciative" of Sheppard's actions. He was very subdued in that last scene. But I think "I will not forget this" is open to interpretation. Sheppard kept his work and proved that he still could be an honorable man, but Todd may also be implying that he will not forget anything that happened -- including Sheppard's refusal to take action to save his crew and ship.

I hope so, I truly do, but honestly, my hopes are rather low.

Spoiler:

It felt too much like the writers applying their usual double standards and positive prejudice towards humans to make us believe Sheppard had behaved like a hero. The only good point I see in this is that Todd is likely to get somewhat more respect from the Atlantis expedition in the future. It still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I like them better when they are at odds with one another. The snarky stuff between them was very enjoyable. I really think that Woolsey has a better understanding of Todd's potential than Sheppard.

Yes and no about the Todd-Sheppard relationship. I preferred them in the middle of season 4. Here, I loved Todd's part, but Sheppard came out as a real b*stard.

[Sparrow_hawk]

I'm too worn out from real life right now to jump into the big discussion. But I had a couple of observations about the retrovirus in its current form:

Spoiler:

1. Instead of just curing them of their need to feed, it damaged their immune systems and ultimately killed them. Sort of like the Wraith version of AIDS or Wr-AIDS (silly, I know, but it gives an easy way to refer to it).

2. Maybe for the Wraith, being fed on by an Iratus bug is the equivalent of getting a stem-cell transplant. Even though it might not kill the retrovirus, it would restore their natural healing abilities long enough for them to eliminate it from their bodies by themselves.

Just my thoughts.

[GoSpikey]

*Rewatches Infection*

Spoiler:

When Keller and Todd have that little 'Iratus bug' convo, he walks over to Keller, right? With an "I have an idea." ? It kinda looks like he'll just eat her on the spot, to me.

A second later, she hails Sheppard, saying that Todd came up with an idea. So when Todd is in the lab, presumably, she says that "Todd" has an idea. Think he'll know about his name now? Presuming Kenny didn't say that part to him, yet. Although, in The Queen, the other Wraith probably also didn't hear that Queen Teyla wanted to kill Wraith...

Okay, when Todd is giving his explanation of the Queen Iratus bug? Either he's very much like the beasty he plays on Sanctuary, or he's in much pain, in too much pain to walk up straight? He makes himself so small? Half bended over?

Did Todd mean to put himself under hibernation once more, and put the Queen Iratus bug on the entity (The Seed) that's in the ship? Is it that part that's damaged? He says he needs a Queen to heal him, but he talks about restoring hundreds of Wraith to health, but it's a bit odd to do that 'put a Queen on their necks' to all of them? Before they're dead? Dunno. Thoughts?

Todd's trying to get them to be compassionate towards his crew, lol. Pushing the 'right' buttons to get them to do what they want. Poor Keller, it's working on her, but not on Sheppard. Cos he of course knows the crew is dead already, or they will be once the power fluctuation will try to open up the pods. Instead they'll just shut down. (Did they shut them down immediately, or is it only when something goes wrong to the pods?)

Edit: I just rewatched the scenes. He isn't really killing killing the Wraith. When the pod malfunctions, they just won't open. So if they don't malfunction, it is still shut, the tendrils are still connected to the Wraith, and they are fine, I think. Am I right?

"You owe me this, Sheppard." Yes, John is still a jerk to him, but is he wrong by saying that? Todd after all did try to crash the Daedalus, which wasn't part of the deal, far from it, and he did say they didn't activate the Attero Device. Todd went out of line in his view, and even now he did an experiment with the treatment that he wasn't going to do normally, so does he 'owe' him? He's in that position because he stole from Atlantis, or you can say he completed their initial deal. Pre-Attero Device. Both parties got what they wanted, and here Sheppard is, rescuing Todd again, or so it seems. At that moment you could perhaps say that Todd owes them another favour? Thoughts?

The part where Todd either was concentrating very hard, or saying his prayers, was that to the Entity? Is that thing in the front half of the ship, then?

And wow he was happy to be let go out of Atlantis. Well, the previous time he was there, or the BAMSR time, he had to get them to honour the deal by saying that he personally needed to negotiate the deal, so they had no choice but to have him go command that ship... It could have gone either way for him, and they let him go. I'm sure he does appreciate that, because after their fight, and Shep's reluctance to work with him, he still manages to be let go.

That's about it.

[MCH]

leksa

You know what my major complain about that is?
Ignoring certain aspects of the science which cannot be justified with the "need for dramatic special effects" turns the decent SF show into the Fantasy show.
If you wish to have SF show then at least show a bit of the respect to the science part of it!

Well we know that, and the Writers probably know that, but does it make a good story?

That to me is when the science part goes right out of the window. So you get a good story - well you hope you will - but don't look to closely at the science. Mind if we all did that we'd all lose out on alot of the debates that happen here.

MCH

[MCH]

O.K. gang, it's one of those posts where half of the discussion is behind spoilers. All of the spoilers are related to Infection, so if you saw it and are interested in discussion, just open all the darn things up before you comment

I find your last comment interesting.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I like them better when they are at odds with one another. The snarky stuff between them was very enjoyable. I really think that Woolsey has a better understanding of Todd's potential than Sheppard.

Spoiler:

Woolsey has a better understanding of Todd's potential than Sheppard.
Actually I agree with you. Woolsey is new to Atlantis, looking at a situation with fresh eyes. He has been handicapped and blinkered by the idea IOA rules need to be followed when dealing with Atlantis. But now he is realising you can't always do that plus he has been onthe receiving end of Todds threat. If we had a 6th season maybe we 'd find out abit more of how Woolsey sees the Wraith and how to deal with them.

Shepherd had his live sucked out of him by Irtus bug- 38 mins.
Has been attcked by Ellie - Instinct.
In Conversion the Ellie retrovirus started to change him into a bug he had to go the a Irtus bug nest to find a cure for Becket (strange isn't that's what Todd is going to do at the end of Infection?) Hum
Meet Todd and been feed on several time by Todd bet he was terrified-Common Ground.

Shepherd is too close to the situation and he thinks he knows what a Wraith will do. He is trained as a military man to take out the enemy, Woolsey is not military and as a newcomer to the city he's in a good position to look anew at the Wraith. So yes he maybe developing an idea of Todds potential unlike Shepherd who has fought and lost colleagues to the Wraith.

MCH

[dasNdanger]

Okay - first - I'm not getting into any moral debates here outside of the one that I will always stand by - that genocide of Wraith - NO MATTER how they feed - is wrong. That's it, and that's all I will say about moral issues.

Now - about Infection. Maybe I'm the only one who loved this episode, but I just want to make a few comments, some that I have already made - some that have been clarified in my mind...

Spoiler:

This was a great episode for many reasons (outside of the genocidal talk). First, we had excellent interaction between Sheppard, and Todd. Yes - Sheppard decided to go with a plan that would kill the crew...and his neck was only saved in this regard when he could tell Todd that the crew died - not due to the Lanteans - but due to hull failure. But you have to look at both sides here - the Lanteans could not risk dealing with Wraith zombies and a disintegrating ship at the same time. Todd, of course, wanted just to save his crew from the illness that he had inadvertently inflicted upon them - he certainly must have felt a certain amount of guilt in this matter, and it was eating him alive. He so wanted to save them...save them from what he was partly responsible for doing to them, so much so that he was willing to risk a jump to hyperspace, and an oft times fatal treatment with an iratus bug. I cannot fault Sheppard for deciding to shut down the hibernation revival system, nor can I fault Todd for wanting to take extraordinary risks in order to save his crew.

They were both thinking of survival - not just their own - but for those under them. They both were doing what had to be done - only...we know that Todd's plan would not have worked, the ship failed to soon.

As far as the compassion discussion - this was one of my favorite parts. First, in First Contact we saw Todd openly display a sort of compassion, or empathy, for Wraith and their future, then quickly he shook off this moment's weakness. But Keller saw it, and knew. So, when the subject comes up in Infection, she makes him acknowledge that Wraith only see compassion as weakness. In the past, Todd has never seen Sheppard as 'compassionate', he's only seen Sheppard as one commander making deals with another...and we ALL know that Sheppard made deals that would - first and foremost - benefit HUMANS. The well-being of Wraith was never a consideration. Todd knows this - he has seen Teyla use her power to kill Wraith, even when she was supposedly trying to help them, and same with Sheppard...not wanting to find the iratus planet because it would mean restoring dying Wraith to health, giving them back their life.

So, this is the man Todd sees. Yes, Sheppard fed him Wallace, but Todd did not see that as an act of compassion, he saw it as the only way humans could get him to finish his work. However, I do think he played on their compassion - their weakness - to get that meal a bit sooner than he actually needed it, but he played on Rodney's compassion, not Sheppard's. I say this because he saw Rodney's compassion when he was pleading for his sister - so Todd knew he could exploit this 'weakness' in Rodney.

However, Keller points out to Todd that Sheppard IS compassionate, he is trying to save lives despite using different 'tools'. Those tools are not always weapons - sometimes those tools are words, or even just decisions made. It at least gives Todd something to think about...that maybe some decisions are not based solely on deals made. Now, jumping forward a bit...

"You owe me this, Sheppard." Pivotal moment here in their relationship. Todd looks at his palm before saying that - yes, Sheppard owes him because Todd has forfeited everything - even his ability to feed - at the urgings of the Lanteans.

Sheppard, on the other hand, clearly sees Todd for what he really is - Todd has revealed his true nature - what he will do if pushed too far...and I think Todd realizes it, too. Wraith WILL kill humans, no matter how much they like or respect them. Todd was ready, at that moment, to kill the best human friend he has ever had. It was a wake-up call for Todd, I believe...and is why he was 'pouting' in the cell. He had lost control, he showed himself for what he really was - no more pretending around Sheppard - Sheppard knows that he will kill, if given the chance...it is his nature, it is his instinct. It was all a beautiful moment - it was Todd, being Wraith...not being Sheppard's pet.

But now they need Todd's help, and Sheppard must ask him to save THEIR lives, not his. Todd knows he's dying, has little hope left...a quick death would be preferrable. The way Chris delivered that 'quick death' line was perfect. Instead of softly mumbling the words under his breath, as if feeling sorry for himself, he shows no weakness and shouts it out. He's not looking for Sheppard's pity, his 'compassion'. And yet, in a way he gets it anyway: help Sheppard, and Sheppard will take him to his bug planet.

In the end, Sheppard lets Todd go (it can be said that compassion was also shown Todd by rescuing him from the sinking ship along with the others, too). Todd says that he 'appreciates' it, and Sheppard gets a little squirmy, and says that he gave his word. But I think Todd sees it differently - I think Todd has come to understand Sheppard's compassion. He had shown Sheppard his worst side, that - if he could have drained the life from him - he would have, without hesitation. And yet, Sheppard gives him a chance to survive, perhaps even a chance to regain the ability to feed. He made a decision to set Todd free - that decision being a 'tool' at his disposal - potentially saving his life, even though he knows Todd is a continuing threat to him, and all humans in the galaxy. Still...despite everything that has happened - he's willing to give Todd the benefit of the doubt. That is compassionate on Sheppard's part - not a deal made, or a word of honor given - and I think Todd finally understands it.

It was all very well done - the second part especially - and IF they keep Todd and Sheppard's relationship on this level (instead of the constant threats of death), then I will be very happy.

I swear, the more I watch the last half of this episode, the more teary-eyed I get, especially during the interactions between Todd and Sheppard. I think they did get it right, and I hope this trend continues through the end of the series, and into the movie.

EDIT: One last thing:

Spoiler:

I believe when Todd zoned out while bringing down the ship that - perhaps - he was linked telepathically with the ship - he was one with the ship at that moment. I have asked Mallozzi about this, especially in light of the questions I had about The Seed that he said he couldn't answer then - but to stay tuned.

das