Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

Of course they knit - doncha remember this??:

Spoiler:

ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Yeah, well...technically, that love with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength REALLY means that I should be spending more time talking about God, then about Wraith.
I just hope He understands OCD....




das

Oooo Das you're such a soft/kind hearted person!!




WK

[ciannwn]

Spoiler:

True. But my problem with that is that I don't trust the writers to not make it seem like it's telling us, "See? Humans are much better than Wraith. We do deserve to survive more than your kind." Aka, Michael Redux But With Success. I think Chris H. and Joe F. wouldn't act it that way, but I suspect that other scenes would set it up to tell that message.

Spoiler:

He wouldn't be the first Wraith who enjoyed the company of humans. Shawn didn't have to dine with the Magistrates - he could have just taken wine and well cooked food back to his ship. He even went so far as to adopt very unWraithlike mannerisms with the wine. It also seems that he liked to think Wraith diverged from humans rather than being Iratus bugs who took on human characteristics.

WRAITH: In that case ... (it takes the goblet and inhales the aroma of the wine) ... apology accepted. (It drinks, and smiles.) Exceptional as always. I think this is my favourite vintage yet.

WRAITH: Our lineage may have diverged, but there are those of us who still retain an appreciation for finer things.

We've yet to see Todd put on airs and graces like Shawn.

[Wraith Cake]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who discussed, listened, and participated in our lovely discussion on the "responsibility of the wraith". For me personally, I need to have these kinds of discussions because my mind thinks endlessly about "Well what about...wait a minute...Hey! have you thought of--well, no that doesn't make sense..."

I remember my second year (or was it third year) history professor say to us "Do you believe stories can change the world?". We all mumbled, shuffled our feet, and looked around to see who would put their hand up. At the end of the course I completely understood what she meant.

Stories are very powerful and they resonate with each reader/viewer/player differently. Obviously SGA has something to it, in order to attract thinkers of all different views.

Roman Emperors knew there was something to stories, as this was their main modus operendi. Allowing the conquered to keep their gods, give them food/water/shelter and let's not forget entertainment: "Bread and Circuses". The issue at hand is that each of us are entertained differently. For me, I am most engaged through discussion, debate and analysis. I need opposing points of view with people who can "walk" me through their reasoning--I may not agree in the end, but I cannot stare at a blank wall--I'll always want to paint on it, nor can I be forced to accept a blank wall "it's just because....".

And so it is, everyone experiences a story differently, but this type of discussion is powerful, validating what my professor said many years ago: "Stories ARE powerful--and they can change the world."


WK

[Todd's Pet]

Remember Davos in The Seer? He said that the galaxy was at crossroads and that the fate of many rested on the decision of the few. Wouldn't it be great if it were about John and Todd working together?

Hey look, girls, we all know Todd is gonna SAVE THE UNIVERSE!

Actually, a thought on the Todd/Shep... Todd has fed on Sheppard AND given him the gift of life. Now I've not yet had the pleasure(pain?) of having had a real life Wraith take or give me life force, however, it seems to me to be quite an intimate act.
So, having shared what might be considered an act of intimacy, could that explain why these two guys just can't help flirting with each other?

[Todd's Pet]

Erik, sigh! Handsome, beautiful hair, brains and a very stylish jacket. What more could a Wraith worshipper want?

I didn't know his name until this week, but I did always think Erik was kind of refined *sigh*
And as for Rhys, what a cutie-pie!

[StarOcean]

Yes, they can learn human qualities - like love and honor and such...but that's because they are sentient. It still does not, however, alter their natural inclinations, nor does it technically make them human.

Ok, this is bothering me a lot.

Das, there's a huge problematic issue with your argument that keeps popping up. There's the implication that love, honor, etc, are solely inherent human qualities. That only humans can have them. Also, there's the implication that having those qualities makes someone "human." It doesn't.

That is very humancentric and it's exactly the problem most of us have with SGA.

Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them. Likewise, just because someone is human, doesn't mean they naturally have those qualities or that they can/can't learn them.

Sentience is sentience. Honor, love, fear, greed, etc are what they are. Humans may have them but it's NOT exclusive to them. Besides, some people use them as a code of behavior, because they're aware of their natural inclinations and want to go against them.

[Todd's Pet]

I have a question regarding a scene in Infection:

Spoiler:

When you first saw Todd sitting in the cell, his back facing the camera - how did you feel about him? What was the very first impression you got when you saw him like that? Did you think he was mad? Sulking? Discouraged? Something else?

And - what emotion did it stir in you? Did it make you feel more compassionate for him? Did ya just wanna jump in there and give him a hug? Or did you want to smack him upside the head and tell him to get over himself? Or...something else?

das

I wanted to do both actually!!! But that's what I love about Todd - he's so full of contradictions

[Todd's Pet]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who discussed, listened, and participated in our lovely discussion on the "responsibility of the wraith". For me personally, I need to have these kinds of discussions because my mind thinks endlessly about "Well what about...wait a minute...Hey! have you thought of--well, no that doesn't make sense..."

I remember my second year (or was it third year) history professor say to us "Do you believe stories can change the world?". We all mumbled, shuffled our feet, and looked around to see who would put their hand up. At the end of the course I completely understood what she meant.

Stories are very powerful and they resonate with each reader/viewer/player differently. Obviously SGA has something to it, in order to attract thinkers of all different views.

Roman Emperors knew there was something to stories, as this was their main modus operendi. Allowing the conquered to keep their gods, give them food/water/shelter and let's not forget entertainment: "Bread and Circuses". The issue at hand is that each of us are entertained differently. For me, I am most engaged through discussion, debate and analysis. I need opposing points of view with people who can "walk" me through their reasoning--I may not agree in the end, but I cannot stare at a blank wall--I'll always want to paint on it, nor can I be forced to accept a blank wall "it's just because....".

And so it is, everyone experiences a story differently, but this type of discussion is powerful, validating what my professor said many years ago: "Stories ARE powerful--and they can change the world."


WK

Tried to green you for that but it said I have to share it around!
That's why I'm an editor! Fiction is just soooooo much more than "fiction"! Stories really DO change the world!

[Wraith Cake]

I have a question regarding a scene in Infection:

Spoiler:

When you first saw Todd sitting in the cell, his back facing the camera - how did you feel about him? What was the very first impression you got when you saw him like that? Did you think he was mad? Sulking? Discouraged? Something else?

And - what emotion did it stir in you? Did it make you feel more compassionate for him? Did ya just wanna jump in there and give him a hug? Or did you want to smack him upside the head and tell him to get over himself? Or...something else?

das

I think, and again this comes from my view of the world (obviously)

Spoiler:

I didn't feel sorry for Todd, and generally I don't feel too sorry for the wraith or that the Lantians are doing them a bad turn. To me, the wraith are arrogant and condescending, they think they know better and they are extremely self righteous. The Lantians don't have the most open minded attitude but its is a little open, if nothing else for self interest. What I think is wonderful about these two races are the extent to which certain circumstances force each group to learn something unexpected about the other.

For instance, I love the fact that Todd's attitude toward human beings gets kicked in the face--often.
I also, love the fact that the Lantians are realizing the wraith are really not that different from themselves and they need to tread carefully when considering the wraith "it" and "other" "You think they're just monsters and creepy crawly gooey bug people, whom you think you have moral superiority to, well, you're wrong. Those monsters, those brutal, viperous pale ones are not that different from you. So perhaps you should look in the mirror.".

One of my favourite scenes was from Siege Part I where that arrogant commander gets fed on by a happy face wraith. The arrogance drops from his face as quickly as he drops to the ground when he is fed on--by a good looking wraith no doubt.

I love how each group is literally forced to see each other differently--I love, love, love this. And for the record, I think both groups are equally arrogant, the humans are just better at making themselves seem virtuous.

WK

[masterling]

I have a question regarding a scene in Infection:

Spoiler:

When you first saw Todd sitting in the cell, his back facing the camera - how did you feel about him? What was the very first impression you got when you saw him like that? Did you think he was mad? Sulking? Discouraged? Something else?

And - what emotion did it stir in you? Did it make you feel more compassionate for him? Did ya just wanna jump in there and give him a hug? Or did you want to smack him upside the head and tell him to get over himself? Or...something else?

das

Which Cell ???

Spoiler:

If it when he is in the hive cell, we see his back when Jon comes in. There I felt that he seemed angry. But the scene progressed do quick that I didn’t haven’t time to conceder holding him. I was glad to see him pick himself up.

When he is on the monitor, sitting on the bed with his back to the screen, I was saddened. He seemed ….destroyed, betrayed, weak, lost. Like he didn’t have any hope. And as woosley talked about him not improving I thought how frustrating it must be for Todd. Sitting there, weak and feeling that his hive died for nothing and that he may die himself. Wondering if Shep will keep his word or let him linger on a bit in pain. Knowing that there is a “treatment”.
I wanted to wrap my arms around him, tell him it would all be ok. I must say I love the fact that even though we know he was weak, the power, grace and confidence he had at the very end when he walked up to the gate…… Ch played that with perfection. I was thinking “you go Todd, don’t let them knock you down!!!” It was just like watching him walk around atlantis in the queen, like he owned the place. He did the same thing on the deady

[Todd's Pet]

Which Cell ???

Spoiler:

I must say I love the fact that even though we know he was weak, the power, grace and confidence he had at the very end when he walked up to the gate…… Ch played that with perfection. I was thinking “you go Todd, don’t let them knock you down!!!” It was just like watching him walk around atlantis in the queen, like he owned the place. He did the same thing on the deady

I have to disagree. Sorry.

Spoiler:

Yeah in The Queen he was strutting round Atlantis like he owned the place and that was cool to see. But in the end of Infection, he was defeated. He knew he was at Shep's "mercy" and Sheppard was letting him go only because he doesn't think Todd stands a hope in hell.
Todd was appreciative of Sheppard letting him go, as he himself said, but he walked through that gate into the unknown, knowing that the Iratus bug might not work and that he still might die.

I just thought it was sad.

btw Did anyone else just LOVE the way Todd pronounced Iratus, not "Eh-ra-tus" but "Ih-rah-toose", like it was Latin... so refined and educated! He even got a bit animated for a moment, like the true scientist he is!

[ciannwn]

There's the implication that love, honor, etc, are solely inherent human qualities. That only humans can have them. Also, there's the implication that having those qualities makes someone "human." It doesn't.

That is very humancentric and it's exactly the problem most of us have with SGA.

Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them.

I've always thought of it as Wraith having their own equivalent because they are a group living species. They are very different to humans in a lot of respects, though, because they don't fall in love, get married and settle down to raise kids. Todd told Sheppard that the gift of life is reserved for their most devout worshippers and brothers but we have no idea what the word 'brother' means to a Wraith.

A Wraith would have to get to know humans in order to understand what love and honour means to an alien species. The same goes for humans in order to understand what they mean to Wraith. Ellia and Zaddik had a father/daughter relationship because he raised her from an infant so she came to know him as an individual even though he was a different species. This relationship didn't make Ellia human any more than it made Zaddik a Wraith, though.

[Laura Dove]

I have a question regarding a scene in Infection:

Spoiler:

When you first saw Todd sitting in the cell, his back facing the camera - how did you feel about him? What was the very first impression you got when you saw him like that? Did you think he was mad? Sulking? Discouraged? Something else?
And - what emotion did it stir in you? Did it make you feel more compassionate for him? Did ya just wanna jump in there and give him a hug? Or did you want to smack him upside the head and tell him to get over himself? Or...something else?

Spoiler:

I thought he was sad, even... broken. Betrayed. It seemed to confirm my hypothesis that perhaps the reason why he acted illogically in "The Lost Tribe" with Sheppard was because of strong feelings for his human "brother".

Strangely, my first reaction was neither to hug him nor to shake him, but to rip Sheppard's head against the wall until nothing was left of it. Then I would have done a bit of both: Opening the cell, grabbing Todd at the shoulders and talking to him with my eyes locked into his to give him his strength back.

It's during the final scene at the gate that I felt the urge to slap Todd in the face repeatedly and shake him until he becomes himself again.

Edit: I first thought you were talking about the scene in the cell on board the hive, but my reply wouldn't be much different about the one in Atlantis anyway. The only difference is that I don't think Todd felt surprised the second time: He didn't really expect Sheppard to honour his part of the deal, so he wasn't surprised to be held on Atlantis instead of being brought to a bug planet.

[Wraith Cake]

Ok, this is bothering me a lot.

Das, there's a huge problematic issue with your argument that keeps popping up. There's the implication that love, honor, etc, are solely inherent human qualities. That only humans can have them. Also, there's the implication that having those qualities makes someone "human." It doesn't.

That is very humancentric and it's exactly the problem most of us have with SGA.

Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them. Likewise, just because someone is human, doesn't mean they naturally have those qualities or that they can/can't learn them.

Sentience is sentience. Honor, love, fear, greed, etc are what they are. Humans may have them but it's NOT exclusive to them. Besides, some people use them as a code of behavior, because they're aware of their natural inclinations and want to go against them.

You really should watch this documentary on Koko called Koko, a talking Gorilla by Barbet Schroeder. Penny Patterson, a primatologist at Berkley University in California adopted Koko I think in 1972, in order to teach her sign language. The findings are amazing and have revolutionize how we understand human development. For instance, it was thought that only humans use tools--Ah nope, lots of animals use tools including Ravens (also a super intelligent animal); Well then only humans have language--ah again, nope--Koko has 1000 words in her vocabulary--and growing.


I am so vehemently against testing on great apes. Language testing in a loving environment sure--Penny became Koko's mother, but not in a lab with anything invasive. It is absolutely sick. And Penny did this in order to save great Apes.

The standard IQ test given to children and teens was adapted to fit her non opposable thumbs so that she could answer the questions without having to write the way we do. The average human IQ is 100--she scored 95. If she doesn't know the name of a noun she'll make up her own. She didn't know the name for a "ring" on the finger, so she said to Penny "I like her finger bracelet". That's what a ring is, a "finger bracelet."

The issue isn't weather humans have a monopoly on compassion, honour, greed, mercy, love etc. (BECAUSE WE DON'T) it is who "we" are willing to define as a "person".

I hate human centric views, because it is usually those who hold the current power that determine "who" is a person i.e. worth saving.

Don't get me started--one last thing I'll say: the first step toward genocide--dehumanize a population (or de-personize it).


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Q

Originally Posted by StarOcean View Post
There's the implication that love, honor, etc, are solely inherent human qualities. That only humans can have them. Also, there's the implication that having those qualities makes someone "human." It doesn't.

That is very humancentric and it's exactly the problem most of us have with SGA.

Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them.

I've always thought of it as Wraith having their own equivalent because they are a group living species. They are very different to humans in a lot of respects, though, because they don't fall in love, get married and settle down to raise kids. Todd told Sheppard that the gift of life is reserved for their most devout worshippers and brothers but we have no idea what the word 'brother' means to a Wraith.

A Wraith would have to get to know humans in order to understand what love and honour means to an alien species. The same goes for humans in order to understand what they mean to Wraith. Ellia and Zaddik had a father/daughter relationship because he raised her from an infant so she came to know him as an individual even though he was a different species. This relationship didn't make Ellia human any more than it made Zaddik a Wraith, though.

Hey, hey Ciannwn--I love this name!!

Well, to had my 500 cents, I think this is way Star Ocean is saying. Let's look:

1/

Ciannwn I've always thought of it as Wraith having their own equivalent because they are a group living species.

Star Ocean There's the implication that love, honor, etc, are solely inherent human qualities. That only humans can have them. Also, there's the implication that having those qualities makes someone "human." It doesn't.

-- SO is saying the above qualities are not exclusively human qualities.

2/

Ciannwn Todd told Sheppard that the gift of life is reserved for their most devout worshippers and brothers but we have no idea what the word 'brother' means to a Wraith.....

Star Ocean Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them.

Again, Star Ocean is saying issues of "brotherhood" are not exclusively a human quality:-a dog will consider his posse "his pack" whether that posse is made up of other dogs, or dogs, cats, a parrot and a couple of hairless apes. A dog will defend a cat against another dog to the death, if that cat belongs to his "pack".

3/

CiannwnA Wraith would have to get to know humans in order to understand what love and honour means to an alien species. The same goes for humans in order to understand what they mean to Wraith. Ellia and Zaddik had a father/daughter relationship because he raised her from an infant so she came to know him as an individual even though he was a different species. This relationship didn't make Ellia human any more than it made Zaddik a Wraith, though.

Star Ocean Just because they're not human, doesn't mean they do not have those qualities inherently. Nor does it mean they can/can't learn them.

Annnnd once again Star Ocean is saying these qualities are not exclusively human. But clearly we can say, there is a "need" both races identify with or they would not be able to traverse through these "qualities" with such ease. For instance, the wraith need to be loved--Ellia needed to be loved; the wraith need to be reassured--Ellia needed to reassured--the wraith need to be taken care of--Ellia needed to be taken care of bla bla bla. Humans need to be loved--Ellia gave love to her father; humans need to be reassured--Ellia reassured her father (about not travelling too far into the hills) etc.

What is that old cliche: love needs no translation--hokey but true.

And who's to say the wraith don't love or marry or have babies and knit for them? We don't know that. I do want to see some wraith macrame.

WK