Wraith Defenders Club

[Wraith Cake]

Yeah, just imagine how it would tear some of the WDC members, such as you, Das, or Todd's Worshipper, if they had to feed on Todd.

I hope the Ancients did not create them as weapons, they are always doing something that has negative effects on others.

Depends on what you mean by "eating" ha ha ha ha ha ha




WK

[Todd's Pet]

For instance, the wraith can eat and drink and excrete waste, they can experience gravity and they sleep, breath oxygen, bleed red blood (similar to our own though it looks a little more viscous) have an interest in personal aesthetic, get crabby when woken up too early, make cookies, have tea, like to go for long scenic walks, twirl their hair, braid their hair etc. Don't you find it weird though that their pupils never dilate in dim lighting? I've often griped about this on Mallozzi's blog.
WK

From a writer/editor's point of view, I'd say it can prove very difficult to come up with "alien" species that are "too alien" (at least without wandering into the realms of the rediculous re. early Star Trek silicon blobs!). We humans, as you say are very egocentric and just find it too hard to break away completely and come up with a new species utterly devoid of any human-centric traits.
btw the thought of dilating pupils occurred to me, but I guess it's too hard to do that with contacts and not have to have some expensive CGI specials. Also on the subject of their eyes, I always thought that Wraith appearance was more reptile (even feline) than insect...

As someone who works with the written word for a living, I found your comments interesting, btw, especially this late on a Friday! and I'll be sure to check out the refs you gave.
Thanks

[Todd's Pet]

Depends on what you mean by "eating" ha ha ha ha ha ha




WK

OOOhh! Friday afternoon thunk!

[Wraith Cake]

I have to say I disagree with you on this one. Who's to say wraith don't have the same prejudice against cloned meat or gene-manipulated foods that us humans seem to have? It does not seem to me that they are going about pillaging and killing just because they can - unlike the Goa'uld (or humans) but rather because they prefer to eat well and making sure the 'wildlife' grows in an orderly fashion and doesn't challenge them too much.

Ideally yes, they ought to stop it and grow their own produce, which isn't sentient. I just have to ask, how is what they are doing different from the many people who prefer the taste and ideology of free-range meat and game?

Thank you for the post--and I agree and I disagree: humans really are no different--and that is the point--they are no different--we too are engaging in evil acts because we do this very thing--I've posted a long blurb about this earlier (I think two posts back??)


Disagree: wraith and humanity are sentient peers, they both have "personhood" (Dr. Weir implies this when she rambles on about the Geneva convention and Steve and how Atlantis's prisoners must be treated)--there is a difference between me eating fresh clams and wraith eating people with armour on--ha ha ha ha!


WK

[dasNdanger]

Depends on what you mean by "eating" ha ha ha ha ha ha




WK

I call nibbling on his fingertips (and earlobes... *wiggles eyebrows* )!!


das

[Wraith Cake]

From a writer/editor's point of view, I'd say it can prove very difficult to come up with "alien" species that are "too alien" (at least without wandering into the realms of the rediculous re. early Star Trek silicon blobs!). We humans, as you say are very egocentric and just find it too hard to break away completely and come up with a new species utterly devoid of any human-centric traits.
btw the thought of dilating pupils occurred to me, but I guess it's too hard to do that with contacts and not have to have some expensive CGI specials. Also on the subject of their eyes, I always thought that Wraith appearance was more reptile (even feline) than insect...

As someone who works with the written word for a living, I found your comments interesting, btw, especially this late on a Friday! and I'll be sure to check out the refs you gave.
Thanks

I know, I always thought their eyes were rather reptilian too--oh ya, and super hot

ha ha ha ha

WK --I wonder if wraith knit, oh they probably knit! Elia most certainly would have.

[ciannwn]

WK --I wonder if wraith knit, oh they probably knit! Elia most certainly would have.

I think they'd crochet things that look like spiders' webs and then wonder what to do with them because they're useless for anything practical.

[dasNdanger]

Okay - I have to disagree with ya, WK...sorry.

As the Wraith have been presented to us - not as we would interpret them to be - they have an instinctual need to feed on humans, and they - obviously - also rely on this feeding to sustain their gifts, such as their ability to heal.

I really don't think we can 'force' them into a human mold. Beckett said they are closer related to the iratus bug than to humans. Todd said that their ways (which would include their morality) is different from ours. They are not simply 'green people', but a distinct and separate species - or 'kind'. Never once have they referred to themselves as human, nor have humans referred to Wraith as 'men'.

Even if Todd were 'tamed' and an alternative food source found for him, it wouldn't make him human. Instead, he'd be like a feral cat that now ate Friskies instead of roaming outside, eating live mice and birds. A cat's still a cat, and a Wraith is still a Wraith...unless the show totally does a retcon and declares the Wraith human.

Yes, they can learn human qualities - like love and honor and such...but that's because they are sentient. It still does not, however, alter their natural inclinations, nor does it technically make them human.

I don't know - but bringing in too many outside sources to explain the Wraith just complicates things. I prefer to accept what the show has offered, and not try to reconcile the Wraith to be something else using too much reality-based information. This is science FICTION - it can be anything we want, and - personally - I want the Wraith to be as they have been portrayed in the show...an insect-based humanoid species with a unique biology, a hive-based social structure, organic technology, and a natural impulse to feed on human beings.

That's the Wraith I know - and that's the Wraith I love. That's all I'll say on the matter...and I'll just bow out of any other discussions on the subject.

das

[Laura Dove]

I don't think you said this exactly, but you said something about a bleak outlook/ understanding of the universe?) is that having a science background and believing in some sort of overarching universal governing justice are not mutually exclusive ideas. In other words, having a strong faith in God/ a god(s) does not mean this cannot be reconciled to science. Admittedly, science and atheism seem to follow each other. Which is unfortunate because you often find arrogance in the scientific community when it comes to having faith in God (a god(s) )

Just a quick reply in passing. It's funny that you say that because to me, it's the exact opposite: It's science that taught me humility. It's science that taught me humans are not superior to other living being but just an animal among others, it's science that taught me Earth is not the centre of the solar system, it's science that taught me the Sun is not the centre of the universe, it's science that may teach me someday there are loads of other planet filled with live beings that don't give a damn about our little dust ball... while religion, on the other hand, tried to teach me humans are created in the image of a god.

This is one of the things I love about the wraith: They remind us that we are not gods but simply an animal part of an ecosystem, and that yes, we may be food for others.

(BTW thanks for the book titles, it's a topic I love.)

after all didn't Todd say to Shepard that he was "merely repaying a debt...in fact I did not truly expect you to honour it" It is curious he uses the word "honour".

When you think about it, even "debt" is a human concept.

Yes, they can learn human qualities - like love and honor and such...but that's because they are sentient. It still does not, however, alter their natural inclinations, nor does it technically make them human.

Das, just a quick question about this: Do you believe it's the genetics that make (some) people humane? Because I think wraith genes make them as humane as humans, no more, no less: Both are a social species (hence the need for ethics and cooperation), driven by the need to survive (individual survival plus reproduction).

[dasNdanger]

Das, just a quick question about this: Do you believe it's the genetics that make (some) people humane? Because I think wraith genes make them as humane as humans, no more, no less: Both are a social species (hence the need for ethics and cooperation), driven by the need to survive (individual survival plus reproduction).

You want an honest answer? I believe our humanity is a God-given gift. I also believe in creation, and not all-out evolution. Now - how can I sit here and openly discuss the evolution of the Wraith from their buggy ancestors and all of that? Because - to me - it's science fiction. Fiction. I can believe and accept anything in the realm of fiction - it's just the fancies of one's mind.

That's why I do not bring in my real-life viewpoints into this discussion - because my real-life beliefs would be in direct conflict with my ability to enjoy this show. The only real-life belief I bring into this is that everything has a right to life, and that hypocrisy on the part of man is reprehensible. I keep God and creation out of it, however, since those are not elements of the show.

See - I can separate reality (or, my reality) from fantasy. I can accept what the show offers me as enjoyable (sometimes aggravating) science fiction, while still holding to my real-life personal beliefs.

So - to answer your question - in real-life I believe our humanity is given to us by God - that all people have the inborn capacity to do good, but often choose to do bad. I also believe that each species is a unique creation, with laws (instinct) unto themselves.

If I try to bring this into the Wraith discussion the big problem is this: Due to EVOLUTION, Wraith have an inherent need to feed on humans. Now - how do I reconcile that with my belief in creation and God? I don't - I separate it and leave it to another realm of discussion.

So, since Wraith have an inherent need to feed on humans - regardless of how humane they have it in them to be - they still must feed on humans, which means that feeding on humans, in their realm, cannot be evil, or even wrong. Never - not at all - even if given an alternative.

See...you have to take this a step further. In their realm of natural selection and evolution, then they have every right to continue to feed on the most superior food source they can find (humans), and not DE-evolve and start feeding on plants and animals, which - obviously - interfer with their advanced healing abilities, and more. The forced gene therapy - technically and by the 'laws of evolution' - is NOT a step forward, but instead a step backwards, as if the Wraith were crawling back to the primordial soup. It makes them weaker, sicker.

Would continued feeding on humans eventually make Wraith fully human? I don't know - nor has the show presented that argument. However, if the Wraith were to evolve into full humans (in every sense, including their digestive abilities), then they would naturally leave off feeding on humans in favor of a more human diet...probably starting with a carnivorous diet first, then - over the next 100,000 years or so, perhaps advancing to a vegetarian diet.

That is, if the Wraith followed the laws of evolution. But as it is, Wraith are being forced to eat a human diet before they have evolved to that point, and it is really setting them back in their natural evolutionary progress instead of advancing it.

Bottom line...any forced therapy is outside of the natural evolutionary process and will cause problems. As far as Wraith humanity goes, well...they have the capacity within the laws of their own nature. They can learn to be kind, compassionate, honorable - but that is because they are reasoning creatures. It still does not, however, mean that their taste for humans is 'wrong' - it is part of their evolutionary process. I doubt that Todd, when taking the therapy, did so because he thought it 'wrong' to feed on humans - he simply saw it as a tactical advantage over other Wraith. So, just because they have certain reasoning abilities doesn't mean that their instinctive nature won't take over. Hell, my cat KNOWS not to pee on the garage floor when the clean litter pan is two-feet away...but it doesn't stop him from being a real pisser, if ya know what I mean.

And yet, I still love him, as I love Todd and any Wraith, life-sucking, or not.


das

[Todd's Pet]

I think they'd crochet things that look like spiders' webs and then wonder what to do with them because they're useless for anything practical.

Wraith DEFINITELY crochet! Have you noticed the similarity between freeform crochet and hive ships?!?!

[Todd's Pet]

See...you have to take this a step further. In their realm of natural selection and evolution, then they have every right to continue to feed on the most superior food source they can find (humans), and not DE-evolve and start feeding on plants and animals, which - obviously - interfer with their advanced healing abilities, and more. The forced gene therapy - technically and by the 'laws of evolution' - is NOT a step forward, but instead a step backwards, as if the Wraith were crawling back to the primordial soup. It makes them weaker, sicker.

Would continued feeding on humans eventually make Wraith fully human? I don't know - nor has the show presented that argument. However, if the Wraith were to evolve into full humans (in every sense, including their digestive abilities), then they would naturally leave off feeding on humans in favor of a more human diet...probably starting with a carnivorous diet first, then - over the next 100,000 years or so, perhaps advancing to a vegetarian diet.

That is, if the Wraith followed the laws of evolution.

As far as Wraith humanity goes, well...they have the capacity within the laws of their own nature. They can learn to be kind, compassionate, honorable - but that is because they are reasoning creatures. It still does not, however, mean that their taste for humans is 'wrong' - it is part of their evolutionary process. I doubt that Todd, when taking the therapy, did so because he thought it 'wrong' to feed on humans - he simply saw it as a tactical advantage over other Wraith. So, just because they have certain reasoning abilities doesn't mean that their instinctive nature won't take over. Hell, my cat KNOWS not to pee on the garage floor when the clean litter pan is two-feet away...but it doesn't stop him from being a real pisser, if ya know what I mean.

And yet, I still love him, as I love Todd and any Wraith, life-sucking, or not.


das

For a creationist you make a damn fine arguement for evolution! And, as an evolutionist I find myself agreeing with you!
But, like I said before, us humans are egocentric and find it hard not to attribute human characteristics to non-human creatures (we do it all the time with pets etc).
However I agree that just because we see something as "wrong" does not mean any non-human species should also do so - hence me putting the bold in your quote. Todd would not see feeding on humans as "wrong" - but given his current circumstances he might be thinking it could be untenable, unsustainable or just plain inconvenient.
The feral cat can still go out and catch free range mice, but it's a darn sight easier to let someone else feed you Friskies!

Having said all that, I agree with you also in that I love Wraith (and Todd in particular) any which way - tame, feral or anywhere inbetween

[Wraith Cake]

I call nibbling on his fingertips (and earlobes... *wiggles eyebrows* )!!


das

LOL!!!

[Wraith Cake]

I think they'd crochet things that look like spiders' webs and then wonder what to do with them because they're useless for anything practical.

then say "meh..." and growl and snort in that cute wraithy way!!! Ha ha ha ha


WK

[Wraith Cake]

Okay - I have to disagree with ya, WK...sorry.

As the Wraith have been presented to us - not as we would interpret them to be - they have an instinctual need to feed on humans, and they - obviously - also rely on this feeding to sustain their gifts, such as their ability to heal.

I really don't think we can 'force' them into a human mold. Beckett said they are closer related to the iratus bug than to humans. Todd said that their ways (which would include their morality) is different from ours. They are not simply 'green people', but a distinct and separate species - or 'kind'. Never once have they referred to themselves as human, nor have humans referred to Wraith as 'men'.

Even if Todd were 'tamed' and an alternative food source found for him, it wouldn't make him human. Instead, he'd be like a feral cat that now ate Friskies instead of roaming outside, eating live mice and birds. A cat's still a cat, and a Wraith is still a Wraith...unless the show totally does a retcon and declares the Wraith human.

Yes, they can learn human qualities - like love and honor and such...but that's because they are sentient. It still does not, however, alter their natural inclinations, nor does it technically make them human.

I don't know - but bringing in too many outside sources to explain the Wraith just complicates things. I prefer to accept what the show has offered, and not try to reconcile the Wraith to be something else using too much reality-based information. This is science FICTION - it can be anything we want, and - personally - I want the Wraith to be as they have been portrayed in the show...an insect-based humanoid species with a unique biology, a hive-based social structure, organic technology, and a natural impulse to feed on human beings.

That's the Wraith I know - and that's the Wraith I love. That's all I'll say on the matter...and I'll just bow out of any other discussions on the subject.

das

DAAAASSSS---the question is do they knit?