For those who do not enjoy SHIPPING on SGA

[Easter Lily]

Here's another perspective. It's done because delving into characters' personal lives makes them more well-rounded individuals (i.e., more interesting characters). Yes, some shows don't look at what happens to their characters away from the show's primary focus, and they're still very successful. But as the seasons go by, unless those characters grow, change and react to their co-workers and surroundings, they become somewhat one-dimensional.

You say that the characters need to grow and change, but WHY in the names of all the gods does "change" have to mean romance?? And why do people consistently refuse to acknowledge that not all change is good? I'm not "afraid of change", I just think that some changes make things WORSE, not better, and for me, ship (in the hands of Stargate's PTB at least) is a show-destroying nightmare from which there is no escape.

Shadow, you've summed up pretty well my thoughts regarding the problematic use of ship in certain shows... For me, the issue with Sam lies deeper than just poor development... there seems to be an underlying suggestion that because she is female, she needs to constantly be the object of male attention. I don't know if that's intentional but it seems to be a recurring theme all through Stargate evidenced by the fact that she's had the lion's share of romantic attachments thrust on her.
Where S/J is concerned, I'm still not even sure why they are atttracted to each other. Of course there is the proverbial opposites attract but even then, there must be something that holds them together apart from the fact that they work together. There are people that I've worked with for several years now and much as I like them as people, I don't have any romantic interest in them at all. In fact the opposite could just be as true... that spending too much with someone can be quite off-putting as well.

The problem with using ship as a tool to delve into a character is that we get a rather disjointed view of the characters involved. I'm not entirely convinced that romance on it's own is actually an effective way to bring out hidden aspects of a person anyway... Often when a person is the forays of infatuation they end up doing things that they'll never do normally and frankly speaking, a lot of television romances are as formulaic and as cliched as you can get.
In the case of Atlantis, we already have all kinds of interesting insights into some of the characters without once having two people paired off. I'm not convinced that coupling Sheppard with Teyla or Weir is going to tell us any more about Sheppard than Sheppard coming to blows with Weir on Hot Zone did.

[Vala]

I have nothing against shipping for characters, but I don't ship for anyone on either SGA or SG1. I only like ships that are a) pure canon and b) the characters have actual chemistry.

[Madeleine]

Is there a regulation issue there? What regulation would it fall under, with Weir being a civillian? (I've been unable to find a conclusive answer one way or the other.)

As far as I know, Weir can be with whoever she pleases, but Ford and Shep are military so they can't be with anyone in their chain of command. This means that W/McKay or W/Zelenka might be okay from a regs PoV but W/Ford could get the latter into trouble for breaking regs and the former into trouble for being unprofessional enough to encourage a subordinate to break regs.

That's not a definitive answer though, cos TPTB make up The Regs not me. Personally I'm not too bothered what the regs are, but I reckon that since TPTB tried so hard not to have Sam and Jack breaking them even though all of TPTB were pretty keen on ship, they'd be similarly cautious about breaking any regs they've put in place on Atlantis.

[Melyanna]

From what I understand, from a couple military people along with reading the regs themselves, a civilian being in charge of military people is so uncommon that it's not discussed in the regs. The other way around (military commander/civilian subordinate) is mentioned, but not civilian commander/military subordinate. That's why in Threads

Spoiler:

Kerry tells Jack to resign. He'd still be in the program and still be in charge of Carter, but they'd fall into this loophole.

From what I've understood, a good part of the reason relationships are frowned upon is that a commander has direct influence on promotions and such, but a civilian probably wouldn't be doing that anyway. It'd be the responsibility of someone else in the military.

I could be totally wrong about this, but that's what I've gathered from my own reading on the subject. Sheppard/Weir wouldn't have the same problem as Sam/Jack. But that doesn't begin to cover the questions of professionalism and ethics, both of which would be of concern to them if no one else. Just my opinion.

[Hatcheter]

As far as I know, Weir can be with whoever she pleases, but Ford and Shep are military so they can't be with anyone in their chain of command. This means that W/McKay or W/Zelenka might be okay from a regs PoV but W/Ford could get the latter into trouble for breaking regs and the former into trouble for being unprofessional enough to encourage a subordinate to break regs.

That's not a definitive answer though, cos TPTB make up The Regs not me. Personally I'm not too bothered what the regs are, but I reckon that since TPTB tried so hard not to have Sam and Jack breaking them even though all of TPTB were pretty keen on ship, they'd be similarly cautious about breaking any regs they've put in place on Atlantis.

TPTB have to follow the Air Force regs in order to keep their Air Force endorsement. That's why they've drug the Jack/Sam thing out so long, they didn't want to lose USAF support in the show's production (not to mention RDA's big shiny Air Force award he recently got).

From what I understand, from a couple military people along with reading the regs themselves, a civilian being in charge of military people is so uncommon that it's not discussed in the regs. The other way around (military commander/civilian subordinate) is mentioned, but not civilian commander/military subordinate. That's why in Threads

Spoiler:

Kerry tells Jack to resign. He'd still be in the program and still be in charge of Carter, but they'd fall into this loophole.

From what I've understood, a good part of the reason relationships are frowned upon is that a commander has direct influence on promotions and such, but a civilian probably wouldn't be doing that anyway. It'd be the responsibility of someone else in the military.

I could be totally wrong about this, but that's what I've gathered from my own reading on the subject. Sheppard/Weir wouldn't have the same problem as Sam/Jack. But that doesn't begin to cover the questions of professionalism and ethics, both of which would be of concern to them if no one else. Just my opinion.

That is my understanding as well. Simply having a civillian in charge of a small military unit is virtually unheard of in the real world. I participated in a debate on that subject once, and did some research into it. I found that there is only one position where a civillian may be in command of a small military unit: embassy Resident Security Officers, who are State Department officials that command the Marine detachments in US embassies. Presumably, Elizabeth is RSO as well as all her other duties. Maybe we ought to ask what the State Department's fraternization protocal is.

Or maybe I'm giving TPTB too much credit. Or just over analyzing this.

[ohshocking]

I do apologise, ShadowMaat, I didn't at all mean to intimate that you're not entitled to your opinions!

I have another question for the non-shippers. If, on Atlantis, they'd gone for a ship in season 1 (something had been said beforehand about Sheppard/Teyla), would that have put you off? Is it just the fact that ship was handled so badly in Stargate that makes you a non-shipper or is it just that you prefer to see the friendships develop through the storylines and think there's no need for in-you-face ship? I'm just curious as to whether, if they'd embedded a ship into Atlantis from the start (I'd actually thought they were going to, from what we heard beforehand), would you still have been against it (for the reasons that have already been suggested)?

I'm not sure how well I phrased that, but I just wanted to ask, because I've heard quite a few S/J fans say that they're not at all going to get involved in ship on Atlantis, because of what happened on SG-1.

[Kip_Cathey_Furlings_are_Cats]

I have another question for the non-shippers. If, on Atlantis, they'd gone for a ship in season 1 (something had been said beforehand about Sheppard/Teyla), would that have put you off? Is it just the fact that ship was handled so badly in Stargate that makes you a non-shipper or is it just that you prefer to see the friendships develop through the storylines and think there's no need for in-you-face ship? I'm just curious as to whether, if they'd embedded a ship into Atlantis from the start (I'd actually thought they were going to, from what we heard beforehand), would you still have been against it (for the reasons that have already been suggested)?

I think it would have put me off the show because then there is no way to say, 'Oh yes, we love each other... blah blah.' No. It would have been two pretty people jumping each others bones because they seriously wanted some action.

I think maybe as a last episode, we could have SOME sort of ship resolution, but, thats not the main reason I watch. I watch Atlantis to hear McKay snark at everyone within twenty feet, to see Teyla kick some Wraith AND Shep bottom with those wonderful sticks, to hear Carson's LOVELY accent, and to watch EVERYONE fight the bad guys.

That's why I tune in every Friday night, and as long as TPTB dont step in it and have person X and person Y get quartes together, and have the whole thing based on that, I will KEEP watching.

Yes, I am a shipper, but a fan fic shipper. That way you KNOW that the reality of the show is still intact, but you got to satisfy your inner sucker.

[Easter Lily]

I have another question for the non-shippers. If, on Atlantis, they'd gone for a ship in season 1 (something had been said beforehand about Sheppard/Teyla), would that have put you off? Is it just the fact that ship was handled so badly in Stargate that makes you a non-shipper or is it just that you prefer to see the friendships develop through the storylines and think there's no need for in-you-face ship? I'm just curious as to whether, if they'd embedded a ship into Atlantis from the start (I'd actually thought they were going to, from what we heard beforehand), would you still have been against it (for the reasons that have already been suggested)?

Yes, yes, yes and maybe, maybe not ... The point of Atlantis is that these people hardly knew each other... They didn't already have a history together and weren't exactly characters that were developed out of the box. I know the early promos for Atlantis touted the whole Sheppard/Teyla angle... but having watched the whole season, I can say the same thing I said about the S/J thing... it ain't there...
Moreover, these people haven't had much time to relax... much less spend their waking hours mooning about a fellow team member. It's been pretty much a case of putting out bushfires when they come up...

[yasureubetcha]

I am against romance between regulars in general because it permits too much romance to sneak into the science fiction. Having a relationship or even an interest here or there does make the characters more human, but Weir's attatchment with Simon is about the extent of what I can enjoy. Even Sam and Pete got too much screen time, IMO. The thing is, relationships like that (with an occaisional character or an alien) jump in for character development, they don't affect everything that happens. Whereas relationships between regulars, since their interactions and adventures are the show's focus, become far too all-pervasive for me. We didn't have to see Weir and Simon, Sam and Martouf or Pete, Daniel and Sha're or Sarah, etc. interacting every episode. So by all means let there be a little romance on Atlantis, but I'd much rather see McKay (for instance) dealing with asking out some nameless engineer or an offworld interest than a long-term commitment to 'ship between regulars.

I think I would take this viewpoint regardless of how SG1 had turned out, I just might not be quite so rabid about it .

[ShadowMaat]

Thanks to SG-1 I've become over-sensitive to anything remotely shippy and I picked up signs of shippyness in Rising between Shep and Teyla... and I loathed it. If characters had been in a pre-existing relationship, that'd be fine, but while Atlantis may have a few fresh faces on the writing staff, I still think the group as a whole is utterly incompetent of writing good ship/UST and I don't want to see their romancey BS poisoning Atlantis.

I don't see any of the characters as having the right kind of chemistry to pull off a long, slow burn. There are touches here and there of possible "moments"- Shep/Teyla, Shep/Weir, Weir/McKay, Zelenka/Weir but I prefer it to be kept in the background; the stuff between Weir and McKay in Storm/Eye, for example, could be interpreted as McKay showing affection or it could be him just seeing that she was cold and doing something about it. The scene between Zelenka and Weir (when they were walking down the hall in some ep) was even MORE subtle and free to interpretation. And asking David Nykl about it did NOTHING to clear that up. Of course, that'd also fall into the category of impossible schoolboy crush and I'm more inclined to like those because they allow some cute moments but nothing will ever come of it.

So basically, no, given TPTB's track record on SG-1, I'd be inclined to hate and resent any signs of ship on Atlantis even if it'd been written in from day one.

Now, Weir/Simon is a whole 'nother story...

[keshou]

Just put me down for a "ditto" of Shadow's post. ^^^^

I'm especially leery of ship on Atlantis because of what they did on SG-1. And because I really don't see the chemistry between Shep/Weir or Shep/Teyla. At least not romantic/love chemistry. I like the friendship Shep and Teyla are developing. The stick-fighting training. The little friendly jabs. I'm enjoying the development of Shep and Weir's professional relationship. But as for romance? Just not seeing it so far.

Why does somebody have to be hooked up? Destined to be together, forever as the "OTP"? Heck, I know many friendships that have lasted WAY longer than several marriages I can think of. "ships" don't have to be about "ending up together".

If they're going to do romantic ship, I wouldn't mind seeing something like McKay and Sam. I thought they had a lot of sparkage. Plus, they're on different shows so we wouldn't be faced with shippy "moments" in every episode. It would be backburner stuff that wouldn't detract from the action and adventures of the ensemble cast on either show.

[ShadowMaat]

If they're going to do romantic ship, I wouldn't mind seeing something like McKay and Sam. I thought they had a lot of sparkage. Plus, they're on different shows so we wouldn't be faced with shippy "moments" in every episode. It would be backburner stuff that wouldn't detract from the action and adventures of the ensemble cast on either show.

Sam/McKay is something I could support, not just because they're on different shows (and in different galaxies), but because of that sparkage you mentioned. It isn't the weepy, spineless romantic sap, it's bickering and sniping and cutting remarks back and forth. That's MY kinda romance. Both characters are also supremely intelligent (when not being lobotomized by the writers) so their traded barbs are all the more sharp for that. It isn't shippiness so much as it's a war of wits.

I know it'd never happen, but I still think it'd be fun to watch.

[keshou]

I know it'd never happen, but I still think it'd be fun to watch.

No, I'm sure it will never happen.

They're intellectual equals and don't hesitate to challenge and snark at each other. Plus, McKay has grown quite a bit since he's joined the Atlantis expedition. I'd love to see what Sam thinks of him now.

Lots of potential there. LOTS.

[FoolishPleasure]

I have another question for the non-shippers. If, on Atlantis, they'd gone for a ship in season 1 (something had been said beforehand about Sheppard/Teyla), would that have put you off?

Actually, before SGA began we heard about "playful sexual tension" between Shep/Teyla and I really had no intention of watching because of those promo remarks (no ship in my sci-fi!). However, I did watch "Rising" and really liked it, until the infamous "cave" scene where Shep finds Teyla's necklace (cringe), and I thought,"Oh no. .here it comes. .what ELSE is on Friday nights??"

Luckily, TPTB haven't really pushed the "ship" angle. .thankfully. I'm just hoping they don't go there in season 2.

[ohshocking]

Thanks for all the responses, they've been really interesting. I have to agree, romance between 2 regulars would throw the show off, so it's better to keep it to fanfic Also, Sam/McKay would be brilliant to watch, I love their snarky interaction .