Well, kevin knox, your recent post seems to have generated a lot of interest, based on the guest visitors who keep reading this thread. I don't have anything much to add, other than I am still pessimistic about how cross-planetary cultural encounters would play out in humanity's current state. Much more than the main characters of SGA making morally questionable actions, SG1's episodes "Spirits" and "Shades of Grey" show situations which are all too easy to envision in which special interest groups cause tense situations on other planets and with other beings.
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Long time guest on this website, decided to create an account and jump in! Glad to be here and hello to everyone browsing this thread!
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but how is the SGA expedition to blame when dealing with Wraiths considering, as we learned later on, that these life-sucking aliens were mistakenly *created* by the Ancients themselves? They seeded the Pegasus galaxy with human life in the first place before the Wraiths were introduced, making them the sole responsible for this loss of lives.
Isn't it immoral for them to leave a polluted galaxy behind (ascending) and not look back, leaving the indigenous people to fend for themselves? Fair enough, we might have precipitated the demise of the Pegasus galaxy by waking the Wraiths but let's be frank, what hope was there for the inhabitants of the various planets out there?
Knowing that your population gets nearly wiped out every century or so and being unable to advance technologically isn't really a bright future for any civilizationSpoiler:Comment
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Hello, Chaka-Z0!
The Ancients had a lot of power and made a lot of mistakes with it. Who the heck leaves an intact exploding tumor creation device just laying around?! While it was tragic the New Lanteans suffered a lot for the Ancient's mistakes (especially Carson and Elizabeth), overlooking the New Lanteans' actions because of the Ancients would be like a tu quoque fallacy, er, rather an Ancient quoque fallacy. Each action has to be judged independently.
Regarding the Wraith, they are also citizens of the Pegasus galaxy (the New Lanteans are the aliens in that galaxy) and they are also victims of structural violence created by the Ancients, having no other source of energy or choice, having to wear self-destruct devices on them, having to hibernate and make themselves vulnerable during that time, etc. It was a big mess for everyone.Comment
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Hi Chaka, Where did you find the reference that the Ancients mistakenly created the Wraiths?Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
Based on what I gather from the episodes I've watched, its mentioned the Wraiths "evolved" from the iratus bug which somehow got mixed with Ancients DNA, presumably via biting some Ancient explorer.
It is not explicitly mentioned in the canon, but the iratus bug seems to be indigenous to the Pegasus system, so it most probably evolved naturally. In other words, the Ancients likely should not be responsible for the evolution/creation of the Wraith species.
The road to hell is often paved with good intentions. so, my perspective is that anytime you have the power of God(s), anything you do will have "immoral" consequences.
Take the case with the stories in many religious texts: If you take a literal approach, it is said God(s) created mankind, but then for some reason(s) the God(s) also decided to wipe out humanity at various points in time via floods /diseases/fire & brimstone etc. Is that considered "immoral" to wipe out millions, if not billions of human lives they seeded on planet Earth every now an then?
In some religious traditions, it is also said that God(s) saw that humankind developed rapidly and started to build a Towel of Babel, in order to reach/rival the Heavens (multiple meanings there). The God(s) then decided to confound humanity's development by creating multiple languages so that humans cannot understand each other.
Does that constitute the same intent to sabotage or somehow halt/defer the technological advancement of a (human) population by some God(s)?
What then, does it say about the future of our human civilization?
The allegory of Sci-Fi is strong with Stargate Atlantis, which is why Stargate remains a hidden gem and one of the best sci-fi stories that I've known. IMHO, far deeper philosophically than Star Wars or Star Trek.Comment
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Isn't seeding the same planet with both humans and Iratus bugs the mistake of the Ancients? Human animals tend to kill off other larger animals, so who else are the bugs going to turn to for meeting their energy requirements (and become stuck feeding on and depending on)? How could the Ancients not have predicted disaster on that planet?Comment
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Yes, as mentioned already, once you have the power of God(s), anything you do has potentially "immoral" consequences, even if you had originally good intentions to start and meant well.Originally posted by WraithTech View Post
This reminds me of the other famous quip from the movie Jurassic Park: Life will find a Way.
You may have created life somehow but it evolves in ways that may surprise the creators.
Granted that the Ancients may have some super scanner technology to check each and every planet before they proceed to seed it with human lifeforms, but there is no way in hell they could have exhaustively checked every dangerous species on it.
Furthermore, life forms are continually evolving. If the Ancients had checked a planet to be perfectly bug-free from Day 0 to Day 7 of creation, who knows a million years later, some new bug variant will not evolve there by itself?
Again, the Ancients cannot possibly be tracking all the fauna and flora on every countless planet they seed over a span of millions of years, right?
The Ancients may have the technology of Gods but they are not omni-present nor omni-potent, so keeping track of so may billions upon billions of seed planets will be too tedious.
Humans tehmselves on their own planet have not even discovered all the unknown species hiding in some virgin rainforest on planet Earth, so we couldn't blame the Ancients to possibly factor in the billions of different hazards on the billions of different planets. There are countless billions of potential planets to seed, I doubt Ancients will do all the necessary leg-work to seed only when they've found the PERFECT planet.
Besides, I doubt too that there will ever be a PERFECT planet with zero dangerous bugs/insects/vermin etc. that are dangerous to humans. Even the veritable Garden of Eden has snakes that poison human bodies and minds. :-)
Secondly, a process to "seed" probably needs to balance between efficiency and safety. I mean there are so many planets to seed, that it will be much like the way farmers scatter rice into rice padi farms. You basically just throw a bunch of seeds into a reasonably conducive environment with good soil, sunshine and water...and then just sit back and watch the plants grow. Some rice seeds will drop into drains and die, while other seed may drop into a shady area and not grow much, and still some rice seeds will get eaten by rats or birds, but that is all inevitable with the law of large numbers.
However, you still can get to your overall objective of "seeding" your entire rice padi field pretty well without fussing too much over any one individual poor or unlucky seed, right?
I suppose thats the mindset with the Ancients doing the seeding too.Comment
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Hi Kevin,Originally posted by kevin knox View Post
By *Mistakenly created* what I meant is that, from what canon tells us, the Ancients brought or seeded human life to a planet where the inhabitants came in contact with the iratus bug. Therefore, even though it was most likely not-intentional, they are still responsible for the creation of the Wraith race.
Here's an example, you could say that the Spanish are responsible for nearly wiping out the Incas by exposing them to nasty illnesses that their immune system was not ready for. It wasn't intentional, yet they are still responsible for this.Spoiler:Comment
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Agreed, considering how highly advanced the Ancients were at the time it's ridiculous that they could've made such a mistake.Originally posted by WraithTech View Post
On another matter, I do not agree with you on certain points WT. Wraiths are citizen of the galaxy, granted, yet it doesn't seem like they have tried in any shape or form to find a solution to their feeding habits, and became quite fond of hunting, farming and herding humans as a food source (Sateda). They were the dominant species of the Galaxy and sure enjoyed their position, being superior to petty humans.
Would you say that the Nazis were simple citizens of Earth, and deserve to live after all the atrocities that they caused?Spoiler:Comment
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At least one of them was trying to strengthen humans before the New Lanteans arrived, either to cut down on the number of humans needed or to make it so they would not be killed during the feeding process. The New Lanteans could only speculate, but that was how Teyla had Wraith DNA through those ancestors. Also, Todd's entire hive was willing to risk their lives for Keller's plan.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
I do not support the Wraith doing this, nor humans doing it to fellow animals either, for that matter, especially when humans have no vital need. Should all humans lose their Milky Way citizenship because a jerk shot Cecil and others? It seems rare with Wraith, but every culture, organization, and family has aggressors. There were only 7 transmitters like Ronon’s on the Lanteans' monitors, but Todd’s also showed up later. So, not all transmitters might signify runners. I also doubt other hives would tolerate territory intrusion of the chase and the wasted masked warriors for all the effort it took Queens to make them. The Wraith who were stalking Ronon had been doing that for years before Atlantis rose again, meaning while the others hibernated. In theory, they were either supposed to be sleeping or watching over their sleeping brothers.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
Woah there. The Nazis chose to be jerks. They had no vital need to kill. And, many German citizens under that regime feared for their lives. That comparison turns my stomach.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
Speaking of choice, the Wraith did not kill off the Asurans when they had the chance, when they undid the attack code. They left the Asurans alone.Last edited by WraithTech; 25 April 2018, 01:02 PM.Comment
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Pretty much the same way we humans played around with animal genes, breeding the most promising specimens over a large period of time in order to have better yield. No good intentions involved there in regards to animals well-being, or humans in this case.At least one of them was trying to strengthen humans before the New Lanteans arrived
Their commander asked / convinced them to. Loyalty does not necessarily mean you believe in the *cause*. Wraiths have a hive mentality, similar to ants, if the boss says go, you go.Also, Todd's entire hive was willing to risk their lives for Keller's plan.
Wouldn't surprise me that there had been more runners before, but most got killed early on. Pure speculation about these dots so I won't expand on this matter.There were only 7 transmitters like Ronon’s on the Lanteans' monitors, but Todd’s also showed up later. So, not all transmitters might signify runners.
As harsh as this comparison might be, there are many parallels to be made. Doesn't have to be Nazis, take any form of regime really in our past / present history. Those who oppose you = death. That's exactly what happened to any civilization in SGA that dared oppose the Wraith in some way, just like the Goa'uld. They didn't feed on every single habitant did they? They take their fill and simply wipe the rest to send a message.Woah there. The Nazis chose to be jerks. They had no vital need to kill. And, many German citizens under that regime feared for their lives. That comparison turns my stomach.
The reason behind this is unknown, but my guess would be that they didn't want to piss them off any more than they had already. Asurans clearly proved themselves superiors to Wraith in combat. You don't poke a sleeping giant do you?Speaking of choice, the Wraith did not kill off the Asurans when they had the chance, when they undid the attack code. They left the Asurans alone.Spoiler:Comment
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They didn't exactly turn their backs on the Pegasus galaxy by ascending. They lost the war and with it the resources necessary to fight back. When they decided to return to Earth the plan was to try to find the remnants of their past civilization there and rebuild. Presumably, they had notions of becoming a galactic power again and, in time, returning to the Pegasus galaxy to deal with the Wraith. The problem is that they did not find what they expected/hoped for and were faced with the prospect of having to rebuild their civilization almost from scratch. Sure, they had their intelligence and whatever they could bring with them through the gate, including puddle jumpers and maybe ZPMs, but once those things break down/run out of juice, they can't replace them. They would need to rebuild their entire industry from the most basic level all the way back up to the point where they had the tools and machinery necessary to build wonders like spaceships, ZPMs, weaponry, etc. They couldn't build those things any more than we could go back to the medieval era with an instruction manual and a cell phone and use what we have available with us to build a computer, so they basically realized that they had no choice but to give up:Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
MORGAN LE FAY
For a time in your history, yes, I was his rival. But we're talking about many thousands of years, Doctor Jackson, as you know. Things change. When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.
-The Pegasus Project
Some chose ascension, but some decided to live out their lives on Earth and make the best of things by trying to jump-start human civilization. If they all banded together behind that aim, there's not much more they could have done. They may have been able to speed things up, but not massively so.
Also, if they all left and scoured the galaxy for whatever they could find, which may be what happened to the third group, and then tried to slowly rebuild their civilization, we'd still be talking about thousands of years to get back in the game.
I think this is a slightly separate issue than the one that was recently being discussed. You're arguing against blaming the Ancients for not having the foresight to realize that seeding humans would lead to the creation of the Wraith when I don't see anyone saying that's the case. Chaka-Z0's argument, I believe, is that unintended or not they have a responsibility to clean up their messes. Now, I just got done making the argument that they didn't have the ability to deal with the Wraith because they lost both the war and their industrial capabilities, but I do agree that they have a responsibility to try to fix their mistake for as long as they are able to do so. Humans do things that screw up the habitats of animals all of the time. There are various reasons for this including ineptitude, good intentions gone awry, greed, etc. But some of us, at least, try to find solutions to undo past harm.Originally posted by kevin knox View Post
By the way, just for fun, here's a quote from The Return where the Ancients noted the expedition's responsibility in waking the Wraith and Woolsey responded by noting their mistake predated theirs. This has nothing to do with taking responsibility for unintended consequences. It's just a fun exchange given the parallels.
O'NEILL
You do know that we've shed our own fair share of blood defending this city from the Wraith.
HELIA
But by your own admission, you are responsible for waking the Wraith.
O'NEILL
…Right?
[Floundering, O'Neill turns to Woolsey.]
WOOLSEY
And by your own admission, you are responsible for the emergence of the Wraith as a species. The fact is, if it weren't for our expedition, there would be no Atlantis.Last edited by Xaeden; 26 April 2018, 04:35 AM.Comment
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Wraith are just making due with what they are stuck with. Humans have a choice. Wraith do not.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
They could have revolted and outnumbered him. One scientist tried that with the super hive and only had a skeleton crew to support him.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
No. There isn't. Again, the Wraith do not have a choice, as kevin had pointed out, many other beings such as tigers do not either.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
That is an opinion. Mine is that the Wraith bested them by turning off their attack code and could have gone further while they had the access.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View PostComment
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Point taken on your assignment of their responsibility as the original progenitors.Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
However, even that premise is on somewhat shaky grounds if we analyse this more.
I agree the Ancients are responsible for the initial seeding activities, but where & when do we draw the line on downstream consequences?
Each species after creation is subject to the unique environmental evolution thereafter, and the Ancients cannot possibly be constantly monitoring their creations over the eons.
Take your role as a parent who "created" your child. Are you completely responsible for your child's entire life? Short answer is no.
Any parent is responsible for bringing the life and the initial phases of care, education and provision of a suitable environment for growth. Once the child matures into an adult, it is pretty much an independent life from the parents and rightly so. If the parents keep obsessing over every little thing the child does and interferes in every little decision of their children, I don't think the child will ever mature nor do very well on its own in later life.
Hence, the arguable point is WHAT constitutes maturity of a child/seeded lifeform and WHEN is that line?
There is no easy or clearly definable line in the sand which says your child is now an independent adult.
The onset of puberty could be a marker, but I see many sexually mature adults with completely immature thinking too. lol.
I presume the Ancients will have the same moral problem of letting go. Yes, I agree they are responsible for their creations initially but WHEN do they need to let go?
As mentioned, they jolly well be around to monitor from Day 0 to Day 7 of creation, maybe even 1000 years thereafter, but ultimately the lifeform(s) have to evolve on its own path and it will no longer be the sole responsibility of the Ancients, just as your parents can't be held responsible for all the decisions you make later on as an adult.
Of course, one can argue the case that how your parents treated you when you are a child impacts your later adult life. For example, some psychologist say if a child was abused by her parents, he/she often grows up to be an abusing parent himself/herself. So, there goes the shifting line of responsibility in the sand....
The Stargate canon did no explicitly say why the Ancients wanted to seed life broadly, so I'm assuming they did it because in their wisdom, they had a noble and benevolent purpose to begin with. If that is the case, then yes, the Ancients actions were faultless and they should not be held responsible for some accidents/mishaps/curve-balls that some their "seeds" may traverse on their long and bumpy road in evolutionary development.
This is the other important consideration on responsibility: The INTENT of the Creator (i.e. Ancients or parenting for that matter) for their creations.
If the original intent of the Ancients was to create a mass of slaves, or a vast network of worshippers of their own Godly powers, or to just play God because they can, or for the fun of it because they were bored, or for any other ignoble purposes, then I would say the Ancients are responsible for all the downstream mess.
The same reasoning applies to parenting, as well as to your example of the Spanish conquest of Incas.
Some parents obviously had one-night stands for the fun of it, and created many offspring which they probably regretted having nor care very much for. Some parents have children for the sake of some ill-conceived notions of social status or think their child is an extension of their egos, or is their road to genetic immortality, or have children (preferably sons) to take over their business empire etc. All these varied intents are unworthy if I may say so.
The only worthy "purpose" to having a child is because you love the child as a being unto itself. You think you make a good parent and you follow through and then you let go once the child becomes an adult.
Similarly, the question we have to ask is this: Are the INTENTS of the Spanish Conquistadors noble when they first sought to journey to the New World and met the Incas?
I understand the Spanish expeditions were mostly on a quest for Gold. So their original intent is one of GREED, which makes all their efforts wrong to begin with. Their incidental spread of diseases only adds to the weight of their responsibility (to say nothing of the actual genocide they committed).
Likewise, if the Ancients intent to seed planets was noble, and they had put in efforts to ensure their creations grow up in a reasonably safe and sound environment, then they shouldn't be faulted for downstream or secondary effects.
When the Ancients eventually bumped into the Wraith, they probably realized the horror they've wrought and sought first to correct it, then to fight it and then having lost to the Wraith, they retreated.
In their desperation while fighting the Wraith, the Ancients created even more abominations, such as the Replicators, and ever more powerful devices/experiments that escalated out-of-control and led to even more negative consequences....almost inevitably.
Later on, humans from Earth repeated the same process when fighting the Wraith, each time with more ingenuity and technological & biological experimentation leading to the same cascade of negative consequences and secondary effects on the Pegasus system. :-)
So it all harks back to my point that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
I guess the moral of the Stargate story (and many good scif-fi) is that even when you have good intentions to begin with, things often spin out-of-control, despite or in spite of you having technologies that rival God(s).Comment
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Completely? No, but there remains a level of responsibility. Say your child is a murderer and you know your child is a murderer. Would you say you have no responsibility to try to stop your child from killing just because the child is grown? Reporting what's going on to the police also falls under good citizenry, so let's use another example. Say your grown child is a drug addict and this behavior can be traced back to the mistakes you made as a parent. Should you feel no responsibility in trying to help your child just because he/she is grown and, as part of that help, address your past wrongs? Some people would say they shouldn't, but they do so because they purposely want to distance themselves from the idea that they are the cause of their child's problems and instead lump all of the blame on their child or an outside source. They are essentially trying to protect themselves psychologically by distancing themselves from responsibility (you seem to take issue with this point later in your post).Originally posted by kevin knox View Post
So, sure, a parent absolutely should not be micromanaging their child's life, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have any sense of responsibility for what happens in their child's adult lives. There are influences outside of their control and they're not always responsible for things that go right or wrong, but it's not fair to compare micromanaging "every little thing" with addressing a serious problem (e.g. galactic murder).
And even if their negative actions can not be traced back to you in any other way than you creating the conditions by which they exist, to shun all responsibility is psychopathic. Say you have one unplanned child and one planned child. Again, the unplanned child is a murderer, but he/she wants to kill your planned child. Would you say that's for them to settle on their own because it has nothing to do with you as they're grown and thus their actions are their own? Or would you feel a responsibility to both protect your planned child and prevent the harm caused by your unplanned one?
Although it wasn't explicitly addressed, there are indicators that they see humans as their successors, so they likely foresaw that they would leave this plane of existence and thus created humans like people create children to ensure their legacy.The Stargate canon did no explicitly say why the Ancients wanted to seed life broadly, so I'm assuming they did it because in their wisdom, they had a noble and benevolent purpose to begin with. If that is the case, then yes, the Ancients actions were faultless and they should not be held responsible for some accidents/mishaps/curve-balls that some their "seeds" may traverse on their long and bumpy road in evolutionary development.
Nothing is purely noble. By creating humans to succeed them they may have had the idea that humans would watch over the things they built in the universe and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, but there's also a level of selfishness in creating someone who does not consent to their existence in order for you to feel as though your name or deeds can go on.Likewise, if the Ancients intent to seed planets was noble, and they had put in efforts to ensure their creations grow up in a reasonably safe and sound environment, then they shouldn't be faulted for downstream or secondary effects.Comment
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