Season 6: Could Weir have returned?

[jelgate]

Irelavent, given that she didn't die... she was left behind. Her clone died, and an Asuran copy was left adrift in space. However, we never knew the fate of the original Weir. The clone was told her original self died. Did her human self die when her Asuran nanites were extracted to become Asuran Weir? We'll never know. Human Weir's fate is a big question mark, ultimately. Now, if we were talking about Carson Beckett where he clearly died and came back as a clone, then your cliche remark would apply.


Just how much bad blood was there? I was under the impression that it was only over "Ghost in the Machine." Why else would she have returned for guest appearances after "Lifeline" if there was bad blood?

SueKay, nice post. That sums everything up nicely. However, one thing I don't understand is why Stargate fans are so resistant to change. What is so bad about characters being killed off or written out of a TV show? It happens all the time in TV shows, especially the modern ones. Now, I will say that the cast of Seasons 2&3 was the best line up for the series. It was downright stupid to break up that chemestry. However, I understand what the producers were trying to do. SG-1 was ending, SciFi wanted a permanent crossover, and the producers wanted Atlantis to continue without having SG-1 as a lead in. The producers believed the show needed to be retooled to hold it's audience. OK, I get that. If they had to kill off Doctor Beckett, couldn't they have done it in a more meaningful way that exploding tumors? I liked the idea that he would die completely unexpectedly, but come on... exploding tumors? At the very least, the tumor should have been in Teyla. Make the audience think the episode is about offing Teyla, then off Carson at the last minute. That, to me, would have had more impact. As for Weir... her storyline in "First Strike," "Adrift," and "Lifeline" was great! Granted, she only had a small role in "Adrift," but the trilogy was a great send off for Weir. Where the writers screwed up was in bringing her back as a guest star. In "This Mortal Coil," she's a clone. In "Be All My Sins Remember'd," we only get a cameo. Is she another clone, an Asuran copy, or the original Weir? In "Ghost in the Machine," we learn that the cameo was an Asuran copy, but this time, she's played by a different actress. By episode's end, she's left adrift in space. We saw a clone, then we saw an Asuran copy. We never saw Elizabeth again after "Lifeline." I think that's where all of the frustration comes from. Is she dead or alive, out there somewhere? We never found out. At least with Carson, it was clear he was dead. When he came back as a clone, the clone actually stuck around.

Carson comes back as a clone, everyone welcomes him. Elizabeth comes back as a clone, and everyone freaks out. Eh?

Sematics. She might as well be as dead.

[sueKay]

Carson comes back as a clone, everyone welcomes him. Elizabeth comes back as a clone, and everyone freaks out. Eh?

I think the reason Clone!Carson was accepted was because the original Beckett's death was so final, and so in-your-face. It was completely irreversible - a clone was the best we could for.

With Elizabeth, there was no 'death', there was no 'end' - the last we saw of her was her standing with Oberoth's repligoons, looking very much alive. Had Elizabeth been properly dead, I think a clone of her would have been welcomed with open arms.

[Snowman37]

Sematics. She might as well be as dead.

Based on...?

Had Elizabeth been properly dead, I think a clone of her would have been welcomed with open arms.

The clone was told that her original self was killed by Obereth. This was passed on to the expedition. So... again... why not tell the clone to come home with them instead of her dieing with her fellow clones? I think the news of Elizabeth's death is why Sheppard refused to accept AsurranWeir as "Elizabeth."

[jelgate]

the facts of GiTM

[Snowman37]

What facts? The fate of her human counterpart was never revealed. They extracted her nanites, and they multiplied... OK... what did they do with her human body left behind? We never found out. I ask again... what facts?

[jelgate]

Sure it was. Replicator planet blew up. That gets rid of the body. And her mind is drifting towards death as the Replicator floats in space.

[Snowman37]

Sure it was. Replicator planet blew up. That gets rid of the body.

Unless it wasn't on Asuras. Who's to say her body wasn't being studied off world? Either by the Asurans or by Niam's faction.

And her mind is drifting towards death as the Replicator floats in space.

Asuran Weir's consciousness is just computer programming. It can be destroyed, but it can't die, for it is not alive. Asuran Weir came out of a space gate, so she won't be destroyed until her orbit around the planet decays. Speaking of which, why didn't we see a planet below the spacegate?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

There was more than one proposed script that would have called for the return of Weir. One of them was a time traveling story that was going to involve the team going back to before season 4 and seeing her. But they mentioned Higginson's reluctance to return made it unlikely for that to have been made. I suppose this is an issue in which multiple sources may have different interpretations of events, but this is the still trend that I remember reading everywhere at the time.

I suppose we don't know if she would have agreed to appear for that, but I distinctly got the impression back in Season 5 that there was supposedly bad blood between the producers and Higginson. Exactly how much or who felt so the most, I don't know, but it was apparently enough to prevent her from appearing further.

When the episode came out, I clearly remember reading that she was the one who suggested that they provide final closure for the character of Weir in Ghost in the Machine. The original ending was apparently much more open ended.

Secondly, I strongly disagree with the idea that if Carter was going to be coming on the show, the only solution was to remove Elizabeth. They could have found some other way to integrate her into the cast without drastically changing the group chemistry the way they did. I don't know if any solution would have been ideal to be honest, but it couldn't have been much worse than what they did in the end because I consider the way they handled Carter's tenure on the show to be a failure.

TPTB claim that they were always planning on removing Weir from the cast and she wasn't just a casualty of Tapping's arrival. Whether that's true or just PR, we don't know, but that is still the story they are sticking with. I think even they seemed to say they had trouble writing for her.

Thirdly, Weir's nanites were not removed and allowed to replicate. According to her story, the Elizabeth that appeared in Ghost in the Machine was not a clone or a copy. The nanites replicated inside her and transformed her body into an asuran. There is debate over whether that it was really Elizabeth and whether the story is true or not. However, what was presented to us in that episode was that it was the real Elizabeth that was set adrift in space. And personally, that is the version of events that I subscribe to.

There was no planet seen around the replicators or the space-gate at the end of the episode, so I don't think there is any reason to think there is one there or that they would eventually crash into it. If there was one, I think they would have showed it to us.

The clone of Elizabeth was still a little different from the clone of Carson. The clone of Carson had no ties to anywhere except Atlantis. The clone of Elizabeth had ties to the rest of the clone team.

[Arica15]

Difficult one.

Now no one really knows what went on behind the scenes with all the cast changes and while we all have our theories (I certainly have mine and they are not complimentary about the writers and producers) in fairness no one but the parties involved can say for certain so whether they could have overcome personal conflicts etc to allow Torri to come back is perhaps just to speculative to really ever come to a meaningful conclusion.

So storywise could Weir have come back?

On the negative side GITM was a pretty dreadful ending for the character but it was at least a conclusion, albeit a conclusion with a lot of doors left open and more questions than answers - which is still more than Ford got (killed off in a blog......has there ever been a more shameful ending for a character) and to revisit that Weir would most likely have required revisiting the wannabe hippy replicators....and I don't think anyone wanted that.

So could the 'real' Elizabeth Weir have been found, either the one taken prisoner, or, more likely, the Elizabeth Weir (perhaps the same, perhaps different) seen in charge of a group of replicators.

I think this one has more legs to it as there are more options available, however again the big downside would be probably more blooming replicators.

Overall though how would Weir have fit into Stargate Atlantis Series 6? For better or for worse (and I happen to think it was for worse but that is a personal view, I know some others felt differently) the show at the end of series 5 felt and looked entirely different from even series 4 and certainly a totally different look and feel from the first three series and I'm not sure that the Weir character that so many of the fans wanted to see would have fitted anymore, even for one or two episodes.

Now I happen to think that getting rid of Weir was a blunder, a terrible blunder, one of a series of terrible blunders (killing Beckett, Keller...just Keller, the replicator idiocy, McKeller, complete lack of a storyline in season 5 to name but a few) which ultimately destroyed the show and perhaps if there had been a complete overhaul of writers and a complete change of direction for the show it would have been possible, but even then I doubt it, too much damage was done to the Weir character.

[sueKay]

Season 5 was appalling.

I didn't watch it until about a year after it ended.

[The Dude]

We've discussed Elizabeth Weir endlessly (it seems) in these forums. Partly, because she was my favorite character on the show. I enjoyed her Asuran story arc right up through "Ghost in the Machine," but I hate that she is...

Spoiler:

...adrift in space, forever, or until she burns up in the planet's atmosphere.

I once read that one of the proposed stories for Season 6 was a return to the original, human Elizabeth Weir. The Asuran Weir who cameo'd at the end of "Be All My Sins Remember'd" and starred in "Ghost in the Machine" would have been revealed as a copy. The original would have been found in stasis. Beyond that, I can't remember. Do ya'll think this would have happened? Did the writers actually have plans to revisit Weir, or is this just teasing the audience?

I don't think they were going to bring her back, the way GitM was written seemed to me to be them nailing the proverbial door shut. The writers specifically had McKay say (after Asuran Weir walked through the Gate) something like, "At least we know it was the real Elizabeth"; the fans can say, "But maybe he was wrong" and that's true but only so far as in-story where anything can be true. But the writers themselves are putting the words in McKay's mouth for a purpose, and the purpose here is to clearly tell the audience "That really was Weir" so there is no ambiguity, writing-wise. That tells me that they wanted us to understand it really was Weir and so this is her fate. Also, as opposed to Niam whose eyes remained open they showed Weir closing her eyes as she drifted away; so they seem pretty clear in saying to the audience "This really is Dr. Weir and she really is dead now. See, McKay told you it was her, the fact she sacrificed herself (again) proves it, and now she's closing her eyes. End of story."

My hypothesis is this: Writers of SG:A saw BSG reboot getting rave reviews and it wasn't good enough for them to have a 10 season legacy and a happy fanbase of countless members, and a wonderful franchise- they needed those super-accolades coming their way. Writers thought, "I could do that, even better" then dreamed of "SG writers rule all of sci-fi!" "SG better than BSG!" "Brad Wright WINS SCI-FI FOREVER!" So they started drawing on the concept of BSG- especially "anyone can die at any time" which works for BSG since that is the tone and spirit of the series- unfortunately does not work for SG (at least, SG-1 and A). So they start killing characters to create a BSG sense of "Who lives? Who dies? And just who is a Cylon and what is their plan*?"

The problem then arises that SG is not BSG at all. It is one of the "no main character permenantly dies (unless actor willingly leaves show)" franchises in spirit. The writers didn't take into consideration this, and after the outrage over the characters being killed they had to start working damage control and bringing back people as clones or hinting at possibile death-reversals, even if it wasn't in the plan. So basically, they got big heads, tried to turn Atlantis into BSG-lite and realized their error too late.

At that point, they were fixated on doing BSG to get their egos some "rave reviews" so they just nixed Atlantis, and went in the other direction. From light to darkness. One which lead to a dead end for everyone.

*apparently they didn't have one.

[Raelis]

I'm with you, Snowman37. I thought "Ghost in the Machine" was unbearably depressing. I would have preferred if Franibeth was revealed as a copy. I prefer to think the real Elizabeth is out there somewhere and she will find her way home soon.

I don't think the writers ever planned to bring her back, though.

[ComtessedeBussy]

My hypothesis is this: Writers of SG:A saw BSG reboot getting rave reviews and it wasn't good enough for them to have a 10 season legacy and a happy fanbase of countless members, and a wonderful franchise- they needed those super-accolades coming their way. Writers thought, "I could do that, even better" then dreamed of "SG writers rule all of sci-fi!" "SG better than BSG!" "Brad Wright WINS SCI-FI FOREVER!" So they started drawing on the concept of BSG- especially "anyone can die at any time" which works for BSG since that is the tone and spirit of the series- unfortunately does not work for SG (at least, SG-1 and A). So they start killing characters to create a BSG sense of "Who lives? Who dies? And just who is a Cylon and what is their plan*?"

The problem then arises that SG is not BSG at all. It is one of the "no main character permenantly dies (unless actor willingly leaves show)" franchises in spirit. The writers didn't take into consideration this, and after the outrage over the characters being killed they had to start working damage control and bringing back people as clones or hinting at possibile death-reversals, even if it wasn't in the plan. So basically, they got big heads, tried to turn Atlantis into BSG-lite and realized their error too late.

At that point, they were fixated on doing BSG to get their egos some "rave reviews" so they just nixed Atlantis, and went in the other direction. From light to darkness. One which lead to a dead end for everyone.

*apparently they didn't have one.

I have to agree. It seems like, by the final two seasons of the show, they went on a rampage of constantly killing characters off, or pretending to kill them off, only to bring them back in increasingly ridiculous ways. There was Beckett, and then the Beckett clone who's there and then isn't and then is, there's Weir who is herself and then a Replicator and then herself, and you never know, then there's Michael, who apparently gets killed but then actually survives, and in the last episode they nearly killed Ronon, but didn't, and this kind of constantly killing and resurrecting just made the show ridiculous. So, all discussions of Torri's and the producers' intentions aside, I think that bringing Weir back would have just added to the mess, whatever form they brought her back in. I liked Weir, though I really wish she had a bigger role in the first three seasons then just approving missions; it would have been interesting to see her doing more than just saying "okay" all the time. But for that very reason, because she really didn't have that much of a role doing anything, really, it would be additionally difficult to bring her back in any capacity anyway. It would have just made everything even more ridiculous.

As for GitM Weir, whatever Rodney Mckay's words (he's been wrong before), I'm not sure I buy that it's Elizabeth, in any form. As someone said, "you may think you're Elizabeth, but you're not." The real Elizabeth, to me, is gone; the real, Elizabeth would never have endangered Atlantis that way. The real Elizabeth is the one that said they shouldn't have activated the nanites to save her - she would never have come to Atlantis. And I see her final sacrifice as not-Elizabeth trying to be Elizabeth. And, given how much I disliked GiTM, that gives me even less faith for them being able to bring Weir back in a way that doesn't add to the mess.

[The Dude]

As for GitM Weir, whatever Rodney Mckay's words (he's been wrong before), I'm not sure I buy that it's Elizabeth, in any form. As someone said, "you may think you're Elizabeth, but you're not." The real Elizabeth, to me, is gone; the real, Elizabeth would never have endangered Atlantis that way. The real Elizabeth is the one that said they shouldn't have activated the nanites to save her - she would never have come to Atlantis. And I see her final sacrifice as not-Elizabeth trying to be Elizabeth. And, given how much I disliked GiTM, that gives me even less faith for them being able to bring Weir back in a way that doesn't add to the mess.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I was just speaking to the question of what the writers themselves were planning/not planning. I still tell myself that Weir either (1) ascended at the end of GitM (which was all a part of her "plan" mentioned at the end of the Asuran episode- in order to pull an Obi-Wan) or (2) is still "on ice" somewhere yet to be revealed (for the reasons you mention about Asuran Weir's apparent endangerment of Atlantis)

[rushy]

I'll just save us all the trouble and say: with Weir TPTB(whatever those words really mean) screwed up big time.