Wraith, Wraith War and Ancients Questions

[Skie]

Something else popped into my mind: Do they ever state if all the wraith hibernate together or if just one hive is active at a time? And why do the others know about Earth, the keeper was killed before the other awake. Maybe the keeper sent a telepathic message to other faced wraiths who were also awake together with her?

[Hagazussa]

The Wraith hibernate together the way I understand it. You have a few caretakers on each hive awake, but the others sleep together. This is why the Wraith do not just check her hive's clocks find out that aw, we still have fifty years to go and sleep some more. Once some have awakened that means that the ships with sleeping crew would be in danger of attack by others, for while the Wraith at the start of the series cooperate some, they do not have a trusting society.

The Keeper woke up the others of her hive and probably told them about Earth, and since the Wraith cooperated with one another at that time the news probably spread like wildfire from hive to hive. There is a distance limitation to wraith telepathy, however they have communications devices on their ships and would probably also meet up at times.

As for Queens, most of the time the Queens are on their guard, and so was the Primary, she just did not expect Todd to move quite so quickly. And why is the bow thing ridiculous, a Wraith Queen can have any member of her hive tortured to death or eaten just because she did not like the way he said good day. The Queens have enormous power as without a Queen the hive dies, perhaps not the next day, perhaps not the next century, but sooner or later there will be to few crew left to run the ship. Would not you bow to someone who held your life and well being, and the life and well being of everyone you considered friends and/or family in her hands? Wraith are not human, among Wraith it is the females who are dominant and the males wish to serve her.

[Skie]

As for Queens, most of the time the Queens are on their guard, and so was the Primary, she just did not expect Todd to move quite so quickly.

For me she just had the air of a person who didn't feel the need to be cautious of a male wraith or a queen. We are applying again human standadrs on the wraith, which is just boring. Oh, they change power with treachery and murder, wait, humans do that too. It just would have been nice to apply complete different behaviours to wraith, more like the behaviour of real hives.

And why is the bow thing ridiculous, a Wraith Queen can have any member of her hive tortured to death or eaten just because she did not like the way he said good day. The Queens have enormous power as without a Queen the hive dies, perhaps not the next day, perhaps not the next century, but sooner or later there will be to few crew left to run the ship. Would not you bow to someone who held your life and well being, and the life and well being of everyone you considered friends and/or family in her hands? Wraith are not human, among Wraith it is the females who are dominant and the males wish to serve her.

I'm not saying they shouldn't show any respect to their queen. Just the way it was shown was quite one-dimensional. Again human standards. Wraiths are telepathic, so words wouldn't be so much needed. I would have liked more silent gestures to pay deference to the queen. I don't know how to best explain my feelings about this episode. It was just very loaded with clichés. I felt taken back to Middle ages with its nobility. But the wraiths don't know this concept, the queen is the queens because she is presumedly the mother of all. So therefore it is natural that the queen is important you don't need to show it all the time. Maybe that's it what bothered me in this episode. The need to show this respect whereas for the wraith it is something that is not needed to show because it is clear for everyone. Hope you understand what I mean.

[morrismike]

^ I like that idea! Maybe that's also why they don't sully themselves by feeding on non-sapient animals. Just guessing here, though.

My guess is they devolve quickly unless eating sentient beings.

[Skie]

My guess is they devolve quickly unless eating sentient beings.

I wouldn't think so. Evolution doesn't work this way. You loose things only if you don't need them anymore. They use their brain regardless of what they feed upon. At the beginning the Iratus Bug just speeded up its evolution by incorporating human DNA it got from feeding on humans with the same result as interbreeding. I highly doubt the wraith still incorporate human DNA through feeding as they would otherwise become more and more humanlike. But they fed on humans for 10.000 years and they still look the same.

[Hagazussa]

For me she just had the air of a person who didn't feel the need to be cautious of a male wraith or a queen. We are applying again human standadrs on the wraith, which is just boring. Oh, they change power with treachery and murder, wait, humans do that too. It just would have been nice to apply complete different behaviours to wraith, more like the behaviour of real hives.

I more saw her actions as arrogance, after all in her position who would want to be seen as strong, she have to be cautious, but at the same time she can not afford to be seen as scared. As for insects, well actually allot of hive based insects do have similar tactics actually, at least before the hive itself is formed, there is fierce competition between queens, and it is not unheard of among some species for one hive to absorb another if the queen is dead, though extermination of the loosing hive is more common.

Also remember that the Wraith is part human, and they have human level or above intelligence, they can not be expected to behave like insects. Now the whole shift of leadership through treachery and murder might not be that original, but I think it works with the Wraith.

I'm not saying they shouldn't show any respect to their queen. Just the way it was shown was quite one-dimensional. Again human standards. Wraiths are telepathic, so words wouldn't be so much needed. I would have liked more silent gestures to pay deference to the queen.

A bow is a rather silent gesture. That being said, yes they are telepathic, but the viewer most likely are not. Stargate Atlantis have to be filmed in a way fitting to the visual and audio media that TV is, and as such Wraith have to behave in ways that the viewer can understand.

I don't know how to best explain my feelings about this episode. It was just very loaded with clichés. I felt taken back to Middle ages with its nobility.

I to felt the episode reminded me of the middle ages and nobility and I loved it. I think that gave new dimensions on how Wraith behave and how their society works.

But the wraiths don't know this concept, the queen is the queens because she is presumedly the mother of all. So therefore it is natural that the queen is important you don't need to show it all the time.

You still have to show it to the viewer. And also if you look at animals they do show deference to their leader in rather obvious ways to, this is not just a human concept.

Maybe that's it what bothered me in this episode. The need to show this respect whereas for the wraith it is something that is not needed to show because it is clear for everyone. Hope you understand what I mean.

I understand what you mean, I just do not agree. If you observe a group of dogs you will see physical shows of respect for the leader, even if they can no doubt feel who is the strongest. Also shows of submission and respect, like for example a bow is as much for the subordinate as for the leader, it helps keep the subordinate in the right state of mind, it helps to remind the subordinate about the superior's leadership, and this is the same among both humans and animals.

^ I like that idea! Maybe that's also why they don't sully themselves by feeding on non-sapient animals. Just guessing here, though.

My guess is they devolve quickly unless eating sentient beings.

I more think that they just do not get any nourishment from an animal, otherwise Steve would surly have accepted an animal other than die. I think it is like with typical vampire fiction, human beings have stronger, more potent life force than a beast have.

[Skie]

I more saw her actions as arrogance, after all in her position who would want to be seen as strong, she have to be cautious, but at the same time she can not afford to be seen as scared. As for insects, well actually allot of hive based insects do have similar tactics actually, at least before the hive itself is formed, there is fierce competition between queens, and it is not unheard of among some species for one hive to absorb another if the queen is dead, though extermination of the loosing hive is more common.

Well if you are cautious the first thing would be only allow the other queen to meet you. Surely they could see to that and have Todd leave. That would be like killing two birds with one stone. You remove a possible thread and reinforce your point that you only talk with other hives through their queen. It depends which insects, some have no competition at all but I'm not too much into that. Hello, is there an eusocial insect expert in this forum? Would be really helpful.

Also remember that the Wraith is part human, and they have human level or above intelligence, they can not be expected to behave like insects. Now the whole shift of leadership through treachery and murder might not be that original, but I think it works with the Wraith.

Sure not. But as you said it is not at all original. Also if queens are really so proud and strong, like we have seen many examples in SGA, I think they wouldn't allow one to dominate them. They work together because they see the benefit but not to let themself being ordered around.

A bow is a rather silent gesture. That being said, yes they are telepathic, but the viewer most likely are not. Stargate Atlantis have to be filmed in a way fitting to the visual and audio media that TV is, and as such Wraith have to behave in ways that the viewer can understand.

Well you have Teyla as the connection, why not show that like they did in THE GIFT. I really liked that episode and how they tried to show their telepathy. They should have more focused on silent gestures and telephatic interactions than on speech.

I to felt the episode reminded me of the middle ages and nobility and I loved it. I think that gave new dimensions on how Wraith behave and how their society works.

It was very similar to the ep THE TOWER and said again full of clichés. They should have invested more time in what the wraith were saying. The wraith speek in a rather elaborate and formal way (at least what we saw from Steve, Bob and the others). I would have liked that they developed on this more rather than on bowing sequences and blund speech (the queen will leave but not forget us, oh my, thanks mom).

You still have to show it to the viewer. And also if you look at animals they do show deference to their leader in rather obvious ways to, this is not just a human concept.

You can do that by one statement not showing it the whole time. We both agree wraith are intelligent and don't need an animal concept, so no obvious thing needed.

I understand what you mean, I just do not agree. If you observe a group of dogs you will see physical shows of respect for the leader, even if they can no doubt feel who is the strongest. Also shows of submission and respect, like for example a bow is as much for the subordinate as for the leader, it helps keep the subordinate in the right state of mind, it helps to remind the subordinate about the superior's leadership, and this is the same among both humans and animals.

For what we have seen so far in other eps about the interactions between queens and male wraiths (rising part 2, hive, allies etc). Male wraith have no need to show their inferiority as queens don't need to show their superiority. We alread had some background on queen interaction here but instead in building up on that they just invented an entirely new way.

But we can probably agree that we will not agree on this. What added to my feeling of this wraith behaviour being out of place is probabyl Teyla being the queen. I would have loved to see this interactions with a real queen. Why couldn't they have Todd keep his real queen (also not understandable why she would risking go to Atlantis in THE SEER, when they kidnapped Todd in the first place). Teyla being a queen with just some operations is as far fetched as cloning Beckett with his memory. If you think back, even Michael was recognized by his queen as not being wraith anymore and he had a lot more wraith genes than Teyla will ever have.

[Skie]

The Wraith hibernate together the way I understand it. You have a few caretakers on each hive awake, but the others sleep together. This is why the Wraith do not just check her hive's clocks find out that aw, we still have fifty years to go and sleep some more. Once some have awakened that means that the ships with sleeping crew would be in danger of attack by others, for while the Wraith at the start of the series cooperate some, they do not have a trusting society.

I also understood they would hibernate together. But that would arise another problem. They are territorital so it's not far fetched to say that depending on your territory you can cull your human herd earlier than others (the more advanced in agricultural and health science the more population grow) and you have to monitor the humans advancement more (Sadeta was destroyed because they could fight back) and maybe even destroy some worlds. So that creates a real problem as to hibernate and awake at the exactly same time then all the other wraiths.
Another thing, if some of them are awake they should be able to advance their technology and just not get stuck for 10.000 years. We even saw that they did that in THE GIFT and PHANTOMS. But as g.o.d pointed out, the lantean-wraith war really makes no sense.

The Keeper woke up the others of her hive and probably told them about Earth, and since the Wraith cooperated with one another at that time the news probably spread like wildfire from hive to hive. There is a distance limitation to wraith telepathy, however they have communications devices on their ships and would probably also meet up at times.

So with her last dying breath she told her hive about earth. But still had enough time to explain Shepp what he had done.
Isn't that cute. But I think it probably works like that.