SGA Legacy Book Series

[WraithTech]

So it's ancient royal courts instead of human suburban families then, only with probably even more incest.

If you need to make a human familial analog you could just as easily compare it to siblings competing for the favor of a parent, likely a strict and uncompromising one. Since the queen is mother to them all that is entirely a dynamic to be expected to.

How would a human psyche develop and behave in a society where paired relationships simply don't exist? Where 99.99% of the people knew they could never have children. I don't know but I know I'd rather read about that than harems full of Wraith dudes lining up for someone who might just be their mom.

Faced officers change hives from their birth hives to increase genetic diversity and are are proud of their lineage, tracking it meticulously to avoid inbreeding. This is explained in the author's blog, has appeared in The Lost, and will appear again in future books.

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/110350.html

It was like I said then. She starts from the assumption that Wraith must reproduce like humans do, which isn't even suggested in the show and actually denied by McKay, then works back from that, trying to make their society fit around it.

Again, McKay's assumption was based off what he saw for the masked warrior caste in "SOW," which did not hold true for Ellia. By the same token of the process you allude to (of how Nietzsche thinks religions are formed), one could accuse McKay of wanting to make Wraith society fit different processes to avoid thinking humans and Wraith are similar, something easy to fall into when dealing with enemies.

It's a shame this has gone down the way it did since Wraith reproduction could have actually been a fascinating character/society study were it given more thought toward being actually alien, simply because the Wraith do have a human psyche and so much of human society is somehow based around our manner of reproduction.

Well, that is an opinion; I can only agree to disagree. I don't care if faced officers are birthed in pods or in wombs, and the dual caste system for males is different than humans. Still, something doesn't have to be different to be fascinating.

By your first statement you posted in this thread, it appears you haven't read the books. Rest assured, the authors did take the time to think all this through and MGM has approved of every line of text.

[The Flyattractor]

Have always disapproved when Alien Bad Guys are too "humanized"
Especialy with bad guys that have been around a long time.

aka Daleks for a prime example.

And with the Wraith. I would have rather enjoyed seeing more of their "buggy" side explored.

[seldear]

Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.

[Ouroboros]

Faced officers change hives from their birth hives to increase genetic diversity and are are proud of their lineage, tracking it meticulously to avoid inbreeding. This is explained in the author's blog, has appeared in The Lost, and will appear again in future books.

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/110350.html

So again, working back from that same initial forced assumption.

Again, McKay's assumption was based off what he saw for the masked warrior caste in "SOW," which did not hold true for Ellia. By the same token of the process you allude to (of how Nietzsche thinks religions are formed), one could accuse McKay of wanting to make Wraith society fit different processes to avoid thinking humans and Wraith are similar, something easy to fall into when dealing with enemies.

It's the only solid evidence that was offered really, spoken from the mouth of a man who's had opportunity to study Wraith databases along with his staff. As such I'd be choosing that as a starting point if I actually intended to expand on the Wraith as depicted in the show. This feels more like remaking them into something else based on the personal whims and desires of the author, something that often occurs with side projects like this, which is one of the reasons I tend to avoid them as noted.

Just reading the passage you linked to for example, I don't get any sense at all that these are the same characters we saw on the show.

It could very well make for a fascinating story in the end, but it won't really feel like a story about SGA's Wraith, but rather one about some new creation loosely based on them.

Well, that is an opinion; I can only agree to disagree. I don't care if faced officers are birthed in pods or in wombs, and the dual caste system for males is different than humans. Still, something doesn't have to be different to be fascinating.

I won't begrudge anyone their opinion certainly, I only post to articulate my own. Which is one of disappointment. There will likely never be an Atlantis movie so I had entertained some thought of reading some of these books that dealt with a potential ending. It was a brief thought unlikely to have given rise to actual action granted, but at the same time I can't help but sigh to see my long held aversion to these supplementary materials once again reinforced.

By your first statement you posted in this thread, it appears you haven't read the books. Rest assured, the authors did take the time to think all this through and MGM has approved of every line of text.

I doubt very much MGM deigned to care overly much about the particulars of what story content went into novels written about a canceled series. They're a production studio, they don't concern themselves with such details beyond the point of ensuring somebody's not using their money to sing the praises of something that's going to embarrass or cost them money.

Were Atlantis ever to see an actual continuation of it's story, the content of these books would almost certainly be entirely ignored.

[Isolde]

Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.

Hear, hear.

[WraithTech]

So again, working back from that same initial forced assumption.

That is an assumption in and of itself, isn't it?

It's the only solid evidence that was offered really, spoken from the mouth of a man who's had opportunity to study Wraith databases along with his staff.

The one McKay thought he was going to get to study later in season 3's "No Man's Land" before the virus halted him?

ZELENKA: We got hacked. Within the hive ship's schematics was a worm-like computer virus.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/301.shtml

We see McKay still speculating in Season 4's "SOW:

McKAY (quietly): It's a Queen!

SHEPPARD: Nice work, Sherlock, but what's she doin'?

McKAY: I have no idea.

later, when discussing only evidence of masked warriors in the pods...

SHEPPARD: Do you think this is some kind of Wraith farm?

McKAY: That's what it looks like. The Queen secretes genetic material which gets distributed through the structure into those pods. Presto – new-born Wraith.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4...ipts/412.shtml

So, as of mid season 4, McKay is still guessing.

I doubt very much MGM deigned to care overly much about the particulars of what story content went into novels written about a canceled series.

This shows that you not only haven't read the books, but also the contents of this thread. Two different authors addressed this misconception in posts 7 and 11 on the first page.

[Leeta]

Yes. We all know that if an Atlantis movie came out it would take over the storyline. We already had someone troll and derail the topic by telling us their opinion on canon is correct and no one else. I think it's safe to say an Atlantis movie it won't happen. I'm of the opinion that Stargate is going to need a re-boot of some sorts to get it going again but that's a discussion for another thread. So, I am going to take these books as canon.

There are other races in other fandoms that don't reproduce 'human style' like The Borg for the example. As far as I know they assimiliate as a way to gain numbers for their population. If anyone wants something different in terms of reproduction they can go read about them. Anyway...

I'm not picking on anyone in this thread by the way. I'm just saying what I feel and this is my last say on the topic of books being canon or not.

Spoiler:

Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.

*greens*

[ciannwn]

Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.

I found this article -

Too Many Pregnancies: Health Risks of Large Number of Pregnancies to a Woman's Body

So yes, having a lot of pregnancies can be risky for human women. I can't see it being much of a problem for Wraith queens, though, because of Wraith regenerative powers - give birth, have a meal and body immediately regenerates into a pristine, pre-pregnancy/birth condition.

On thing that bothers me about Wraith being very like humans, though, is something we didn't see in Vegas. After studying pics of the shirtless Wraith, members of the WDC came to the conclusion that he didn't have nipples even though queens have bumps on their chests. Are Wraith mammals?

[WraithTech]

On thing that bothers me about Wraith being very like humans, though, is something we didn't see in Vegas. After studying pics of the shirtless Wraith, members of the WDC came to the conclusion that he didn't have nipples even though queens have bumps on their chests. Are Wraith mammals?

Good question...
Here is a list of criteria from an online dictionary:
Mammal –noun - any vertebrate of the class Mammalia, having the body more or less covered with hair, nourishing the young with milk from the mammary glands, and, with the exception of the egg-laying monotremes, giving birth to live young.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mammal

vertebrate - check (Spike's spine; no exoskeleton)
hair - check
milk - maybe
live birth or some exceptions for eggs - check

So, the criteria left to to hone in on is if the Queens have functional mammary glands. Being a PG show, all we have to go by is the the males have damage-resistant dermal layers on their chests.

Spoiler:

With such a divergence in caste of the masked warriors possessing more nostrils than the faced-officers, it is possible that the Queens could have the necessary mammary glands and that the males evolved a tougher, thicker skin layer over where theirs would have been.

[ciannwn]

Good question...
Here is a list of criteria from an online dictionary:

I had an idea about Wraith chests in this WDC post -

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12366960

I found an article explaining why human males have nipples and then invented a pseudo-scientific theory as to why Wraith males don't. And why not seeing as the Stargate universe runs on pseudo-science.

[Ouroboros]

That is an assumption in and of itself, isn't it?

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying?

I'm saying that making the assumption that Wraith reproduce like humans is an assumption made with no support from the actual show.

On the contrary if you assume that they don't reproduce like humans, since it's been said they don't by McKay, but rather in some way more akin to how their cloning machine works. There is support for it in the show.

Sure you're not going to get anything explicit one way or the other but there's more support for the cloning/not sexual reproduction version than the other way around.

I've go over already a few reasons why I think this is so.

The one McKay thought he was going to get to study later in season 3's "No Man's Land" before the virus halted him?

Yeah, that's why I mentioned his staff. Zelenka and company were pouring over that thing for hours. McKay might not have got a direct personal look at it but I'm sure he was brought up to speed on whatever they learned before it erased itself. It's not like they're going to keep it a secret from him.

As far as the other quotes go I wasn't trying to suggest that McKay knows exactly how Wraith reproduce. He doesn't. All he knows is that he feels reasonably confident that he can rule out the human like sexual reproduction Sheppard suggests as an option.

Seems odd that that would then turn out to be true. He says "I'm not sure exactly what it is but it's not this" and then the answer turns out to be "this".

This shows that you not only haven't read the books, but also the contents of this thread. Two different authors addressed this misconception in posts 7 and 11 on the first page.

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread before I first posted. I wasn't really planning to get into a long involved discussion. I get the impression reading those posts now that the edits are a lot like the ones that go on for Star Wars EU material where people check them over to make sure that they don't outright contradict anything already established in the canon. Like if the book made the mistake of saying McKay was an American that would need to be changed.

Nobody's going to say "I don't think the Wraith should have names or reproduce that way" though and demand a rewrite on that basis. They're ultimately trivial details with no objectively right or wrong answer and thus, I'd assume, would be left up to the author to decide.

I just don't personally care for what was decided is all, and think that there was a much more faithful foundation to begin to build from already present in the series, that may have ultimately even led to a potentially more interesting outcome.

Like we've both said before.

Opinions.

[Isolde]

I had an idea about Wraith chests in this WDC post -

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12366960

I found an article explaining why human males have nipples and then invented a pseudo-scientific theory as to why Wraith males don't. And why not seeing as the Stargate universe runs on pseudo-science.

I think that's a solid theory. All mammals develop nipples along two channels that run from the groin area to just under the armpit and this is bilateral, as you would expect. Also, interestingly, some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat...

[ciannwn]

I think that's a solid theory.

Thank you.

Also, interestingly, some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat...

Hmmm. Iratus bugs must have fed on something before the Ancients seeded the home planet with humans. This suggests that Wraith evolved a highly specialised diet over time. Perhaps the Ancients also seeded the Iratus bug home world with horses, mice or one of those species of rat. So, new theory coming up.

Iratus bug queen feeds on a human and lays an egg before the human DNA filters out of her body. One of her descendants is another queen who feeds on a horse, mouse or one of those rats and lays an egg before lunch's DNA filters out of her body. The line continues down the ages and eventually evolves into the Wraith we know and love. The faced males don't have nipples because of the horse, mouse or rat DNA.

[CedrusTuri]

some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat...

Ratties!!!

I can attest to this - my partner and I have several rats (well okay, 23 but let's not count, okay?), and some are male, and some are female. The 'boyz' as we call them, (Many of them named after Stargate characters), do not have nipples.

[WraithTech]

On the contrary if you assume that they don't reproduce like humans, since it's been said they don't by McKay, but rather in some way more akin to how their cloning machine works. There is support for it in the show.

As I have cited with reference material above, this was supported for the masked warrior caste (aka drones) only. There was never any information on the faced male caste. If you know of a transcript that states how faced males are reproduced, please find it and cite it here. With no such transcript, the authors are free to go either way on the issue of faced male reproduction because of this lack of information.

McKay might not have got a direct personal look at it but I'm sure he was brought up to speed on whatever they learned before it erased itself.

As I have cited with reference material above, McKay had a full season to get up to speed and still didn't know. Speculating that the team did read about Wraith reproduction and shared it with McKay is not factual, documented information from the show. If you can find in a transcript that this occurred, please cite it here.

Nobody's going to say "I don't think the Wraith should have names or reproduce that way" though and demand a rewrite on that basis. They're ultimately trivial details with no objectively right or wrong answer and thus, I'd assume, would be left up to the author to decide.

This is not how two of the authors in posts 7 and 11 described the process. Jo told us, "There is not one comma in Homecoming that has not been specifically approved by MGM."

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12409657

Again, if you can back up your statement with a contrary citation from MGM, please point to it.