Wraith vs Gouald

[Rodney dex]

lets say they found a tech that allowed them to travel here,say it take the same time as a x304 to travel

[tannim111]

The Wraith could deal with kull warriors by beaming them into darts and dropping them off in space or at great heights. Only Anubis/Baal had those anyway so they wouldn't really factor in.

We've rarely seen 100 Jaffa, we've seen as many Wraith as Jaffa in ground situations. The Wraith can deploy their troops more easily anyway with Darts (which are better fighters than gliders) although both Jaffa and Wraith couldn't hit the side of a barn.

cite on darts being better at air/space superiority than gliders?

It comes down to logistics. The Goa'uld could mass a powerful strike force anywhere, and deploy it in minutes through the gates. The wraith are limited to what they bring with them. Again, the Wraith (pre civil war) don't think in terms of a technologically capable, combat minded adversary.

Everyone is saying the Wraith wouldn't be able to steal ZPMs and the Goa'uld wouldn't be overconfident so would win. Has it occured to you that the Wraith wouldn't need these factors to win? Their ships are better and if they can reach the MW they would be faster, we've seen many times before the Goa'uld struggle to amass large fleets. Anubis gathered 30 ships, most system lords will be able to marshell far less than that. The Wraith have been shown when cooperating to be capable of massing 12 Hives + cruisers, without the civil war the Wraith would easily overwhelm the Goa'uld. They pick off planets at their leisure.

Anubis had 30 ships for an attack on Earth, a relatively defenseless planet. This was also after a major war between him and the other system lords, with the huge losses to each side both would have. Do you seriously think he left the rest of his territory unguarded?

Let us be clear: the wraith would be in the Ancients' position - better gear but outnumbered, but without the ancient's sheer qualitative superiority or a relatively invincible secure base (Atlantis), and at the tail end of the longest supply chain ever. They'd be operating from eminently destroyable hive ships. The Goa'uld would just whittle them down through strike and run (established above). Once space superiority has been achieved, the ground forces would be so much meat - they'd just throw Jaffa at them until they died, or call in an orbital strike.

[Buba uognarf]

cite on darts being better at air/space superiority than gliders?

Better weaponary, some form of hub for targetting which from what I recall Gliders lack.

It comes down to logistics. The Goa'uld could mass a powerful strike force anywhere, and deploy it in minutes through the gates. The wraith are limited to what they bring with them. Again, the Wraith (pre civil war) don't think in terms of a technologically capable, combat minded adversary.

Completely pointless when the Wraith will be culling worlds and leaving, even if the Goa'uld learn of the attack and send troops through the gate Darts will make short work of the Jaffa. The Goa'uld aren't exactly combat minded, we've seen little in the way of strategy from either.

Anubis had 30 ships for an attack on Earth, a relatively defenseless planet. This was also after a major war between him and the other system lords, with the huge losses to each side both would have. Do you seriously think he left the rest of his territory unguarded?

You both miss the point of what I was saying and reinforce it. The most powerful system lord could must 30 ships for an attack on a world he believed had Ancient weapons (it was also said to be the full force of his army). Clearly he had ships holding off the system lords etc...but we've seen on numerous occasions that the Goa'uld can't commit large amounts of ships to battle. Probably due to distrust with each other if not open war. The Goa'uld span the galaxy most ships will be defending their strong holds. The Wraith have the luxury of not having to defend worlds.

Let us be clear: the wraith would be in the Ancients' position - better gear but outnumbered, but without the ancient's sheer qualitative superiority or a relatively invincible secure base (Atlantis), and at the tail end of the longest supply chain ever. They'd be operating from eminently destroyable hive ships. The Goa'uld would just whittle them down through strike and run (established above). Once space superiority has been achieved, the ground forces would be so much meat - they'd just throw Jaffa at them until they died, or call in an orbital strike.

The Wraith wouldn't be that outnumbered, the Wraith could easily cull worlds on the edge of the galaxy and use the virus from 'The Seed' to start making Hive ships before an all out attack. TBH I don't think they'd even have to do that, Ha'taks take each other out pretty fast I think Wraith weapons would make short work of Ha'taks. I think strike and run is more likely to be done by the Wraith as they're the ones on the offensive.

[Ed]

well hataks are easier to kill than even crusiers are better hatack can be killed by 2 drones ep its good to be king a crusier took a dozen ep travelers it took one unexpectadly at point blank and only backed off in condemed a hive takes a whole wave of drones as seen in no mans land.

[tannim111]

Better weaponary, some form of hub for targetting which from what I recall Gliders lack.

We've never had a pilot's eye view of a glider. No info either way.

Completely pointless when the Wraith will be culling worlds and leaving, even if the Goa'uld learn of the attack and send troops through the gate Darts will make short work of the Jaffa. The Goa'uld aren't exactly combat minded, we've seen little in the way of strategy from either.

They've been fighting each other for millenia - the wraith have been swooping in and eating defenseless humans. The Goa'uld come in expecting a technologically powerful enemy, which the wraith have almost zero experience at.

And lead off with the racks of gliders (mentioned upthread). Once they're alerted, all it takes is a couple gliders in orbit around each planet to report wraith entering the system (radio someone on the ground, and have them dial the reserve force to alert them). You can put a hell of a lot of fighters into the air in the time it takes a ship to reach orbit. Arm at least some of them with naquadah-based explosive warheads (the Goa'uld are familiar with the concept, they just don't use it much - see Camulus' trap attempt) and you have some very dead wraith ships.

Only send in ground troops if Wraith have come in and entrenched.

You both miss the point of what I was saying and reinforce it. The most powerful system lord could must 30 ships for an attack on a world he believed had Ancient weapons (it was also said to be the full force of his army). Clearly he had ships holding off the system lords etc...but we've seen on numerous occasions that the Goa'uld can't commit large amounts of ships to battle. Probably due to distrust with each other if not open war. The Goa'uld span the galaxy most ships will be defending their strong holds. The Wraith have the luxury of not having to defend worlds.

That's right, they've been fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. What happens when a powerful external foe unites them, at least temporarily? And Anubis' strength was tech, not numbers. He was in the middle of a shooting war with *everyone* else in the galaxy, and was able to spare 30 of his relatively small number of ships.

The Wraith wouldn't be that outnumbered, the Wraith could easily cull worlds on the edge of the galaxy and use the virus from 'The Seed' to start making Hive ships before an all out attack. TBH I don't think they'd even have to do that, Ha'taks take each other out pretty fast I think Wraith weapons would make short work of Ha'taks. I think strike and run is more likely to be done by the Wraith as they're the ones on the offensive.

Cull unwatched worlds how, exactly? Remember *every* human world aside from Earth was seeded by the Goa'uld. You really don't think they watch their territory? There is evidence that some worlds have no goa'uld presence (the tollan, anyone?) but those are few and far between - the odds of the wraith hitting one of those first is slim, and once the alarm is raised, that possibility goes out the window. You also need to remember that most culls are dart strikes through the gates, which the wraith can't do until/unless they capture a significant number of gate addresses.

You're also forgetting that the virus needs a serious energy source to build a ship - the wraith won't have access to that outside of their planetary bases (which don't exist in the milky way). Not going to happen in large numbers. If it was doable on the scale you suggest, the various hives would be doing it like mad to win the civil war. We have no evidence of that.

[tannim111]

well hataks are easier to kill than even crusiers are better hatack can be killed by 2 drones ep its good to be king a crusier took a dozen ep travelers it took one unexpectadly at point blank and only backed off in condemed a hive takes a whole wave of drones as seen in no mans land.

Golden BB shot by an elite pilot who was very familiar with the layout of the ship in question (having crawled all over more than one of them) and whose mind was linked with the weapon's guidance system. Like Carter said "it must have hit something vital."

Not something you can really count on.

Also, Hataks rely on shields rather than armour, and drones pretty much ignore shields. Total defensive power is likely equivalent (Hatak shields, cruiser armour).

[Giantevilhead]

The Goa'uld's greatest advantage is their ruthlessness. If they can't win the war against the Wraith then they would have no problem with slaughtering their human and jaffa slaves.

[IcarusAbides]

Any chance that the Goa'uld symbiotes could inhabit wraith, potentially terrifying enemy if this was possible, just a thought.

[Buba uognarf]

We've never had a pilot's eye view of a glider. No info either way.

We've seen Teal'c or O'neill piloting them before, I have no recollection of any hub. Wraith darts also have superior weapons, in 'Letter from Pegasus' a dart destroys a jumper in a single burst from its weapons. Assuming the time jumper has the same hull it took many shots from the gliders pursuing it.

They've been fighting each other for millenia - the wraith have been swooping in and eating defenseless humans. The Goa'uld come in expecting a technologically powerful enemy, which the wraith have almost zero experience at.

The Wraith have fought the Ancients, the Asurans and the

Spoiler:

rogue Asgard

. I think they've got better experience with powerful enemies, like I said the Goa'uld rarely display any sort of strategy anyway. Have the Goa'uld actually been fighting for thousands of years? It hasn't been constant warfare, more like the odd skirmish.

And lead off with the racks of gliders (mentioned upthread). Once they're alerted, all it takes is a couple gliders in orbit around each planet to report wraith entering the system (radio someone on the ground, and have them dial the reserve force to alert them). You can put a hell of a lot of fighters into the air in the time it takes a ship to reach orbit. Arm at least some of them with naquadah-based explosive warheads (the Goa'uld are familiar with the concept, they just don't use it much - see Camulus' trap attempt) and you have some very dead wraith ships.

Which gliders are we talking about? The ones which go through the gate? There was one of those and if I remember correctly it was hard to pilot, darts would own it. The Goa'uld have never be shown to field the large amount of fighters Hive ships carry, nor have the Goa'uld ever used naquadah enhanced nukes. I doubt they would start using them against ships now. We've seen fighters/Alkesh are fully capable of damaging and taking down Ha'tak shields(they were effective against the prometheus and her superior shields)so the large squadrans of Darts would cause serious problems for the Ha'taks. If we factor in Hives and cruisers the battle in space gets ugly for the Goa'uld.

Only send in ground troops if Wraith have come in and entrenched.

Thats assuming the Wraith would want to fight and capture worlds instead of destroy/cull them. I will cover this later on.

That's right, they've been fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. What happens when a powerful external foe unites them, at least temporarily? And Anubis' strength was tech, not numbers. He was in the middle of a shooting war with *everyone* else in the galaxy, and was able to spare 30 of his relatively small number of ships.

In Reckoning both Baal and Replicarter massed less than 100 Ha'taks put together for a galaxy deciding battle. We've seen system lord coalition fleets include no more than 12 Ha'taks...obviously the Goa'uld are unlikely to commit massive forces at least initially. They distrust each other too much, they wouldn't leave themselves open to other Goa'uld. This war will be on a galactic scale baring in mind we've seen relatively small numbers of Goa'uld ships in most fleet engagements I don't see them flinging large fleets across the galaxy at the Wraith.

Cull unwatched worlds how, exactly? Remember *every* human world aside from Earth was seeded by the Goa'uld. You really don't think they watch their territory? There is evidence that some worlds have no goa'uld presence (the tollan, anyone?) but those are few and far between - the odds of the wraith hitting one of those first is slim, and once the alarm is raised, that possibility goes out the window. You also need to remember that most culls are dart strikes through the gates, which the wraith can't do until/unless they capture a significant number of gate addresses.

There are plenty of human worlds out there the Goa'uld don't watch. It would be fairly easy to find a world not controlled by the Goa'uld and set up on it.

The Wraith could use there computer virus's to learn all they need about the Goa'uld. Send it onto a ship and download ship positions, controlled planets and gate addresses. The Wraith now have the knowledge needed to attack the Goa'uld effectively. They could even programm the virus to transfer to other Goa'uld ships and take over whole fleets like it did with the deadalus.

You're also forgetting that the virus needs a serious energy source to build a ship - the wraith won't have access to that outside of their planetary bases (which don't exist in the milky way). Not going to happen in large numbers. If it was doable on the scale you suggest, the various hives would be doing it like mad to win the civil war. We have no evidence of that.

No it doesn't. Its quicker with a serious energy source. They just need an uninhabited world to start it off. Its completely possible for the Wraith to do it. How do you know the Wraith haven't been making new Hive ships? You don't know that they haven't.

[Death Wing22]

Im new to gate world but I come on regularly to read what people have put, Im not going to argue against all your points but growing new hive ships could take many months in my opinion, this is because of the different circumstances in which is could happen. If they spread the virus on a sparcely populated world with a distinct lack of technology then the ship would grow at a much slower rate than what we have seen, as it would not have access to an external power source like we have seen in the seed. Now of course this doesn't stop the wraith from landing on the planet and giving the virus a power boost, but it will be nothing compared to a Z.P.M. From the statement that the wraith would choose a non gould controlled planet, the habitants would likely either be not that technologicly advanced, orhave enough knowledge to cure the virus and/or resist the wraith.

I realise this theory isnt bulletproof and I dont claim it to be, Im just saying that the Wraith might not have such an easy time establishing a beachhead as you are suggesting.

Sorry for the rubbish spelling lol

[Rodney dex]

its a very good point but im sure the wraith would wait untill thew time was rite to invade are galaxy anyway,there not just going to say to each other lets take over the mw and take a few ships are they?

what a wraith tactics like?

[Buba uognarf]

Im new to gate world but I come on regularly to read what people have put, Im not going to argue against all your points but growing new hive ships could take many months in my opinion, this is because of the different circumstances in which is could happen. If they spread the virus on a sparcely populated world with a distinct lack of technology then the ship would grow at a much slower rate than what we have seen, as it would not have access to an external power source like we have seen in the seed. Now of course this doesn't stop the wraith from landing on the planet and giving the virus a power boost, but it will be nothing compared to a Z.P.M. From the statement that the wraith would choose a non gould controlled planet, the habitants would likely either be not that technologicly advanced, orhave enough knowledge to cure the virus and/or resist the wraith.

I realise this theory isnt bulletproof and I dont claim it to be, Im just saying that the Wraith might not have such an easy time establishing a beachhead as you are suggesting.

Sorry for the rubbish spelling lol

The Wraith wouldn't need a technologically advanced planet. Even if it took months in the long run it may not matter, the Wraith could leave them to grow and come back when they're finished. They could do this on various planets while they fight the Goa'uld, after months they come back to find new ships ready.

[Rodney dex]

months?
how long do you think it would take?
do you think the gouald would no wat to do with a growing hive if they found it?

[Buba uognarf]

months?
how long do you think it would take?
do you think the gouald would no wat to do with a growing hive if they found it?

I have no idea how long it would take to grow months was a guess. The idea would be to place it on a world the Goa'uld wouldn't go to.

[Rodney dex]

wixh wouldnt be that hard tbh to find,i was going to say one protected by the asgard,but bloody hell what if the asgard then found the wraith