Why Stargate: Atlantis is cooler than Battlestar Galactica...

[jelgate]

Wait, that's even less interesting than Irresponsible. How did you manage that?

BSG is just that boring

[Ouroboros]

thankyou!! for bringing this up, i dont know why that isnt mentioned more , but quite frankly i am kind of disgusted by that attitude it really bugs me, i was surprised by the supposed genocide of the Ori on SG1 and how no one had a problem with that, especially after all the grumbling about using symbiote poison because it harms jaffa.
but other than that, Atlantis is just fluff, BSG tries to actually be about something, how can you hate a show for that, even if it turns pretentious or gets a bit lost at least it tried, better to try and fail (not saying BSG failed) than not at all.
Atlantis is just there, like white noise, BSG causes a reaction hence this thread.

p.s. BSG rules!!!! in case my opinion was not clear

That's actually the most hilarious example of moral bias in the series, the whole Jaffa thing.

"Oh gee our poison that we hoped to use to exterminate the Goa'uld species from existence harms our Jaffa buddies to, drat. Ok everyone I guess we'll have to put this genocide on hold for now. Killing people (that are willing to bow down and adopt our worldview) is wrong you see. This will spoil our "scratch our backs we won't try to genocide yours" intergalactic policy."

"Aww shucks boss"

It's the same story with every enemy they encounter.

Goa'uld: gotta exterminate them

Wraith: Gotta exterminate them

Ori: Gotta (and did) exterminate them

Replicators: Exterminated them

Asurans: Gotta exterminate them

I mean holy **** guys. It's going to be a pretty ****ing lonely galaxy when you're done don't you think?

Any race that crosses Earth EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! They're like the Da'leks without the cool robot voices. Then they ***** that the Wraith kill people because they need to eat so they're evil. Or how the Ori are exterminating planets full of people that go against them/don't agree with their political outlook on the universe. Uhh look in the mirror much?

They use a watered down less agressive version of the Ori's tactics. If you oppose us we'll try our damndest to exterminate your "evil" species. We'll even cross intergalactic voids and come into your home galaxy to tell you that your species is evil and attempt to exterminate you.

[jenks]

Genii: made an alliance with them

Jaffa: helped free them, then allied with them

Ori followers: trying win them over

Unas: forged an agreement with them

Aschen: scared them off

Entity: made a deal

Lucian Alliance: undermined their leadership

yada yada so on and so forth...

[Ouroboros]

Genii: made an alliance with them

Jaffa: helped free them, then allied with them

Ori followers: trying win them over

Unas: forged an agreement with them

Aschen: scared them off

Entity: made a deal

Lucian Alliance: undermined their leadership

yada yada so on and so forth...

So like I said, if they co-operate with Earth's interests they're on the "good guys" team and everything is all buddy buddy. If they don't though then they're labelled an "evil species" and it's guilt free genocide time.

[PG15]

Ok, there is a difference between "not cooperating" and "actively trying to kill you". I sure would defend myself if it were the latter, and if killing them off is the only way, then hell ya I would take it

[SGFerrit]

That's actually the most hilarious example of moral bias in the series, the whole Jaffa thing.

"Oh gee our poison that we hoped to use to exterminate the Goa'uld species from existence harms our Jaffa buddies to, drat. Ok everyone I guess we'll have to put this genocide on hold for now. Killing people (that are willing to bow down and adopt our worldview) is wrong you see. This will spoil our "scratch our backs we won't try to genocide yours" intergalactic policy."

"Aww shucks boss"

It's the same story with every enemy they encounter.

Goa'uld: gotta exterminate them

Wraith: Gotta exterminate them

Ori: Gotta (and did) exterminate them

Replicators: Exterminated them

Asurans: Gotta exterminate them

I mean holy **** guys. It's going to be a pretty ****ing lonely galaxy when you're done don't you think?

Any race that crosses Earth EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! They're like the Da'leks without the cool robot voices. Then they ***** that the Wraith kill people because they need to eat so they're evil. Or how the Ori are exterminating planets full of people that go against them/don't agree with their political outlook on the universe. Uhh look in the mirror much?

They use a watered down less agressive version of the Ori's tactics. If you oppose us we'll try our damndest to exterminate your "evil" species. We'll even cross intergalactic voids and come into your home galaxy to tell you that your species is evil and attempt to exterminate you.

Umm... what the heck are you talking about?

These races don't just oppose us/go against us lol, they actively seek to either obliterate us from existance or enslave us, well, either us or entire galaxies. Do you expect the SGC to just sit by and let them destroy us and the galaxy? You don't seem to know what your talking about.

Really, you make no sense. "Oh, I know they are trying to kill everyone and everything in the galaxy, but, you know, lets just leave them be. Killing them just because they are going to kill us soon would be nasty."

I mean seriously, FFS. You use some seriously backward logic.

[SGFerrit]

Ok, there is a difference between "not cooperating" and "actively trying to kill you". I sure would defend myself if it were the latter, and if killing them off is the only way, then hell ya I would take it

Totally agree. Seems Ouroboros thinks we should just lie back and let it happen lol.

[Agent_Dark]

for teh record, every post above this one is fail

sga ep done by bsg writers would go like this:

carter: sup
sheppard: lol
mckay: i like turtles
teyla: lol
ronon: ...

and a bsg ep by sga writers would go like this:

adama: sup
roslin: lol
apollo: i like turtles
baltar: lol
starbuck: ...

i win the thread.

[CaldwellForce]

The new BSG is a sham of a scifi show. It was good, waaaay back during the mini series but should have been canceled after season 1. A small number of critics tipped it to be a great series, but now they have to eat their humble pie and fans can not believe how fast this show jumped the shark. It became a show for rikki lake fans not scifi fans. The disastrous suicide bomber episodes and the quadrangle soap opera of doom made many fans declare they cannot watch this show anymore. Battlestar character continuity got flushed down the toilet and story lines made no sense in this context.


Ratings have been on a downward spiral,
here's that pic x302 posted



Eick was always useless, I never liked any of his shows. Ronald D. Moore once had talent as a writer/producer but he got worse as the years rolled on and pulled the same crap in DS9

I liked the appearance of classic style Cylon fighters, but some of the flash forwards and flashbacks made the movie lose its momentum.
What were the ratings for BSG Razor like ?

[Kick-Kinsey]

{Snip}


There was no real suspense in Galactica Razor, the movie is really bellow par and doesn't compare with other classic scifi. Some of the scenes were ok, the show has got actors but the movie had a lot of problems and the way they introduced some of the flashback story lines was horrible it ruined the pace of the movie.

[jenks]

So like I said, if they co-operate with Earth's interests they're on the "good guys" team and everything is all buddy buddy. If they don't though then they're labelled an "evil species" and it's guilt free genocide time.

That's one way to look at it, or maybe the 'evil' species are the only ones who can't be reasoned with?

[Ouroboros]

All you fun loving humerous people jumping on me for saying how Earth always jumps to genocide and using the "OMG evil see" nature of Earth's enemies have all played right into my hands.

So GWAHAHAHA, and so forth I guess.

Who makes it so the villians are so shallow and one dimensional that all we ever get out of them is how they want to "OMG eat our babies, key all our expensive SUVs while we sleep* and make us drop our snowcones when it's really really hot outside and we really really wanted to eat them"

That's right. The guys who you're championing over Galactica's writers. Writers who have even managed to show the sympathetic human side of a race of machines who wiped out humanity.

So basically you're right, well you're not totally but I'll pretend you are just so I can finish up a little quicker here. Humanity is a genocidal power because all of the enemies ont he show are shallow one dimensional monster men who the scripts don't seem to want to make time to show any other side of. Or in some cases they will do a one off episode that shows say, "see all Wraith don't want to ky your SUV, this one wouldn't" but then next week they'll be back to talking about the genocide again. So you've got one dimensional villian writing that's evidently quite bitterly determined to stay one dimensional villian writing. Either that or they're tryingt o have their cake and eat it to which is another distinct possability.

And therefore it is infearior to the writing on BSG in this sense, which goes to great strides to explore complex moral questions and even allows humans to play the roles of the villians sometimes. You're also left to make up your own mind as to which is which, using what the characters do and how they act as your guide.

This as oppossed to stargate approach where you're told that the humans are "good" and alien X is "genetically evil" and you're supposed to ignore any little bumps along the way. Like when the "good" side tortures and performs medical experiments on the "bad" one. You're allowed to, and supposed to, get upset if it happens the other way around though.


*Note I do not actually own an expensive SUV or any sort of SUV or SUV like vehicle for that matter.

[PG15]

Pfft, whatever. I still enjoy SGA more.

Oh no! My snowcone! Those damn...er...Wraith! Gah!

Seriously though, I think what you described applied to "Michael" very well; it doesn't matter if the "good guys" thought what they were doing was right, the way the episode was presented made it very clear that the good guys weren't necessarily so.

[sg8man]

uhhh no sorry genocide is not acceptable as a means to deal with something, just because they are "evil" doesnt mean they deserve that, nothing does.
as to what can beat them... i can't say, i wasnt dumb enough to write myself into that particularly wet and soggy corner

Yes, you did. And nothing ever done by the good guys in stargate could be described as 'genocide': genocide is commited against unarmed civilians. Taking up arms against your enemy, is never 'genocide' its war, even if,when they refuse negotiation or surrender, you wipe them all out.

if i think i know what your getting at:
the problem is that atlantis is but one of hundreds of sci fi shows that just sit there and churn out the same old tropes week in week out but just keep going regardless of quality (or sanity) it does nothing to rise above its own sci fi trappings, BSG however uses sci fi as the background universe to tell an all too human tale, the science fiction isnt the show the people who inhabit the world are and that is why it is infinitely more interesting.

Yeah, you're queit right, BSG is a great metaphor for a Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Yes, BSG "rises above it sci-fi trappings" as you say - to meet the likes of Days of our Lives and The Bold and the Beuatiful. Also, if you think stargate is that bad, why are you a member of the gateworld forum?

I have no objection with the war on terror references in BSG, in fact i used to be a big fan of the show, till I saw Razor. It is so bad, I know that it has made even diehard fans of the show question their faith.

What I do object in to BSG is the pseudo - religious / spiritual crap that it has become replete with. Through season 3, the increasing levels of cylon spouting / preaching thier religous drivel, and the increasing significance of theese nonesensical ramblings in the plot began to annoy me a great deal. Whats the point of it all? And if I wanted to hear BS like that, Id tune into those shonky nutter tele-preists.

[Phantom Limb]

Yes, you did. And nothing ever done by the good guys in stargate could be described as 'genocide': genocide is commited against unarmed civilians. Taking up arms against your enemy, is never 'genocide' its war, even if,when they refuse negotiation or surrender, you wipe them all out.

theres taking up arms against your enemy and then theres wiping an entire species from the face of the universe, that takes a special sort of "good guy" i believe, lets review:

the Ori, well thats ok because they're energy and it was just some wibbly energy weapon killing some more wibbly energy.

the Replicators, well thats ok because they're machines and it was just some wibbly energy weapon killing some lego.

as ouroborus pointed out its the 1 dimensionality of the villians that cause the necessity for these ridiculous one shot solutions, the unfortunate side effect of which being that SG1 has taken it upon themselves to obliterate an entire species from existence........genocide.

and this trend seems to be aching to continue in Atlantis

Yeah, you're queit right, BSG is a great metaphor for a Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Yes, BSG "rises above it sci-fi trappings" as you say - to meet the likes of Days of our Lives and The Bold and the Beuatiful. Also, if you think stargate is that bad, why are you a member of the gateworld forum?

I have no objection with the war on terror references in BSG, in fact i used to be a big fan of the show, till I saw Razor. It is so bad, I know that it has made even diehard fans of the show question their faith.

What I do object in to BSG is the pseudo - religious / spiritual crap that it has become replete with. Through season 3, the increasing levels of cylon spouting / preaching thier religous drivel, and the increasing significance of theese nonesensical ramblings in the plot began to annoy me a great deal. Whats the point of it all? And if I wanted to hear BS like that, Id tune into those shonky nutter tele-preists.

lol, yeah the AA thing, i dont entirely get that myself, starbuck must have the liver of an eighty year old and to be able to kick so much cylon arse with what must be steaming hangovers, well.......

ok so anything that explores human behaviour is like a soap? so by that logic every tv show that isnt stargate or a gameshow is a soap?

now then, then now, now then, do remember there is somewhere in the vicinity of a decades worth of stargate, more than enough for anyone to have changing opinions of the show. i grew up watching stargate from the very first episode, i loved it and over the years i have watched in transfixed horror as something i enjoyed watching turned slowly into the most cliche riden poorly executed sci fi show on tv, but for a while all that sci fi was, was cliche ridden nonsense, yeah enterprise im talking to you to! dont think i didnt notice!!! (how dare you ruin Bakula!!).

And then i watched some mini series called battlestar galactica, which initially i scoffed at with memories of the original and it showed me something i had not seen in a sci fi series of its like before, what should or could have been just a spaceships hitting each other with big sticks programme turned out to be an incredibly layered well thought out tale of human survival and the people were....well, people as flawed and nuanced as people in the real world, no one in the show is "evil" or "good" because these things simply dont exist outside of films and tv.

stargate at its beginning had a similar premise in some ways, an established universe existed, but it was about the team and it was a joy to watch.
then it became about the team....and space battles.
then it became about space battles and energy beams.

galactica is a more grown up type of sci fi, thats not to say it hasnt got its problems im not defending everything about it, it may have been well thought out in the beginning but clearly the longer it continues the more apparent it is they didnt really have a solid game plan from mid series 2.
however it is a real step forward, its the most original (ironically) sci fi show out there at the moment because its doing something that isnt done in sci fi and stargate has just stayed the same, even the supposed reboot of sg1 (or whatever the hell you call that) was a step backward in developing the series, it was just floundering introducing a new villian that had neither the history or the coolness of the goa'uld.
the idea was to take them back to square one, earth as underdog except that, thats not what happened at all, it was earth vs laser beams.

im not going to blindly defend a show that i once thought was great just because i once thought it was great!

also i feel that a programme has done its job if it either infuriates or inspires its audience, its making you face these things and make a choice, take a stand..........and thats Galactica.
better that than the bland malaise of stargates pretty shiny things.

p.s. what didnt you like about razor ? (i personally wasnt blown away but i didnt think it was crap)