Do The Ancients like the number 3? (Details/Spoilers from "Suspicion")

[Z_2]

Spoilers: (Contains details noticed from Suspicion)


















Hi there-

I really noticed during "Suspicion" when I saw that the conference table had 3 longer edges (along with 3 shorter edges, as if a triangular table had its points snubbed). And the roof of the PJ landing bay opened up with a hexagon. Then I noticed how multiples of three figure into other designs (the 'peninsulas' of the city had three larger lobes, and three smaller ones, and the Stargate had 9 chevrons, of course). So is there an explanation of why multiples of 3 figure into the architecture/patterns in Atlantis? I don't mind so much, because 3, 9, and 27 (along with 720), are some of my favorite numbers (Have you seen a trillium? Purty flower...).

Sorry if this has been asked before, but thanks for your help!

[aAnubiSs]

We've already talked about it.

The Minbari, guided by the Vorlons (beings of energy) based everything around 3. The Ancients also like 3, and they are beings of energy. Coincidence, I THINK NOT!

[Mio]

Another popular design in Ancient Architecture is alternating hexagons and 6 pointed stars.

We've seen it in several different places, Including The Lost City and Metamorphasis.

[Z_2]

We've already talked about it.

The Minbari, guided by the Vorlons (beings of energy) based everything around 3. The Ancients also like 3, and they are beings of energy. Coincidence, I THINK NOT!

Yeah, I figured it has been discussed about the Ancients; I just didn't search for a thread about it, and I'm new here. Is there any official info that talks about the number "3" connection?

And maybe it's actually a number "6" connection, but 6 doesn't go into 9 (for the chevrons) evenly...

Oh, and aAnubiSs- Could you tell me how to find the thread where this was already talked about? Does it have more information/speculation? Thanks for your input so far!

[aAnubiSs]

Can't remember what the other thread was called. Was probably in some thread not even about that subject. Btw 6=3*2

[Z_2]

Can't remember what the other thread was called. Was probably in some thread not even about that subject.

Well, I'm glad I started a thread with a subject that might not have been discussed fully on its own.

Btw 6=3*2

Yep, that's true. I was just observing the details of the city of Atlantis, which was laid out with 3 each of 2 different sizes of peninsulas, and then I noticed what at first looked like a cool triangular conference table (but is actually 6-sided because the 'points' of the triangle were 'cropped'), a hexagonal roof opening, and then of course there's the 9 chevrons, and 39 glyphs, and taken together, the greatest common factor is 3. So that's why I figured 3 was some favorite digit to the Ancients.

So do you think that the reason why the number 3 or a multiple thereof is prominent in the Ancients' designs is some big mystery like the (real-life) conjecture why honeybees use hexagons for their cells? Or is it something whimsical or less science-based?

[aAnubiSs]

Some godly knowledge must be revealed regarding 3 when you ascend.

[Mio]

But they were using the number 3 before they ascended.


In any case, The Triangle is the shape of the gods.

[aAnubiSs]

How do we know they didn't change it after?

[Mio]

How do we know they didn't change it after?

<caught off guard, searches desperatly for answer> Euhh....Magnets?

[Z_2]

Don't know if the details below count as "Spoiler" stuff since it does have details that you learn from the show, but it really is just my ideas otherwise...

Spoiler:

Here's a thought about the number 3 and how it could relate with the Ancients.

What if the Ancients liked cubed numbers (1, 8, 27, 64, etc.)? If you add the digits for each cube separately, as many times as necessary to end up with a one-digit number, all cubes "boil down" to 1, 8, or 9. If the Ancients were mathematically-minded, or if they made some truly universal observations, they might have picked up on some recurring patterns for distances to habitable locations and just used those basic values somehow, since it would be a simplified technique. I'm not saying that the values the Ancients use, or what TPTB's background story for what values they use, are 1, 8, and 9, but maybe it's something like that.

There's lots I wanna talk about that deals with this subject (Ancients and numbers), but here's just one thing that I thought was fun that I wanted to share. Using just the numbers 1, 8, and 9, as values for an x, y, and z-value distance from an origin, and using each value only once with each coordinate (so you can't have point 1,1,1), you can rearrange the three values to create the coordinates of 3! (three factorial) points in space: (1,8,9), (1,9,8), (8,1,9), (8,9,1), (9,1,8), (9,8,1). Then, after defining those coordinates, they can be rearranged to specify the endpoints of the x, y, or z lines (if that's the correct interpretation of how Daniel described the values/glyphs in the movie) which could pinpoint the location of a destination gate. And the seventh chevron can be a sort of "distance multiplier" if you think of it like this: Say the first six chevrons could be thought of as the coordinates (1,8,9), (1,9,8), (8,1,9), (8,9,1), (9,1,8), (9,8,1). If the default value of the seventh chevron is 1, then the coordinate values would be the values of the first three cubes whose digits add up to 1, 8, and 9, which are 1, 8, and 27. But if the seventh chevron has another value specified, like 2 or something, then the representative values of 1, 8, and 9 are actually symbolic for the second set of cubes whose digits add up to 1, 8, and 9, or, in other words, the values are actually 64, 125, and 216. If the seventh chevron had nine choices, then values/distances up to 27^3 (or 27 cubed) could be defined pretty simply. But this idea doesn't address the points in the "negative" x, y, or z direction, and I didn't know how to fit the number 39 (Where does 13 come from? A Baker's dozen?) into the formula, so it's not a well-thought-out idea. Sorta rudimentary.

So I thought I was getting somewhere with my idea, but then I got side-tracked with numbers...

But this is what I did figure out, which deals more with my favorite numbers and less with if the Ancients like the number 3. With 3 values, they can be arranged to define coordinates, which coordinates can then be arranged to define a certain number of possible destination "addresses" (whether a gate is there or not). And the number of possible addresses if every coordinate is only used once per address? 720 (which also was referred to in "Rising"). I thought that was neat; and there's a nine-character/symbol equation that uses my smallest favorite number to get my largest fave number: (3!)!=720

[Random thoughts] About numbers, although I like multiples of 3 and 9, to get away from a certain 'diabolical' number, I also prefer (or define my "multiples of three" favorites) that even multiples of 3 need to also be evenly divisible by 4. But that doesn't mean multiples of 12 are my favorite, though. And I like 42 because that's how many days (or 6 weeks) it takes for a peregrine falcon to fledge after hatching. Also, I don't care for 5 much (even though in base 12, "720" in base 10 is "500"), just because of some connotations with the pentagram, even though you need fives for multiples of 10.

So how does this relate to stuff I do each day? (Very little, actually). But I'll do sets of 27 or 48 or 63 or 108 push-ups and crunches, but not 18, 25 or 54 or 60 or 90... Yeah, it doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

[Z_2]

Here's some more to add to what I just posted previously (don't know if it's a spoiler-thing, but oh well):

Spoiler:

So, although there's no real reason for me to continue and flesh this idea out, I have figured out (going by faulty assumptions and a few givens) how to account for some unknowns which I didn't explain in the previous long post.

For a quick recap, I'm defining a 'set' of cubes as the 3 cubes (of consecutive positive integers) whose digits add up to 1, 8, or 9. So 1, 8, and 27 are the first set, and each cube represents a distance. And a 'set' of glyphs are the 3-number permutations made up of 1, 8, and 9 which represent x, y, and z-coordinates. So (1,8,9), (1,9,8), (8,1,9), (8,9,1), (9,1,8), and (9,8,1) (just think of 3!) make up a set of glyphs and when any permutation (there are (3!)! of them) of those coordinates are locked into the first six chevrons, they designate a possible destination Stargate.

Now, adding on to the previous post, how about if 5 sets of glyphs are represented on a Stargate? Or in other words, the coordinates with distances up to 15 cubed (whatever unit of length is used) are given. Then 30 glyphs are defined. And then 1 of 8 more glyphs could be used as the "distance multiplier" to find the next set of cubes up to the 13th set, and could be positioned in the 7th chevron spot to augment the values of the 5th set of glyphs.

(Rewinding a little) I guess I should include a formula (though others could be used) for each set of cube values. The first value in n (starting from n=1 to 5) sets of values would be (1+3(n-1))^3, the second value is (2+3(n-1))^3, and the third value is (3+3(n-1))^3. So the first set of cubes are 1, 8, and 27, and the second set of cubes are (1+3(2-1))^3, (2+3(2-1))^3, and (3+3(2-1))^3, or 64, 125, and 216. That second set of glyphs, which are based on the second set of cubes, could be signified somehow (as with a subscript) as the coordinates (1,8,9)[(n=2)], (1,9,8)[2], (8,1,9)[2], (8,9,1)[2],... etc.

Then the first 5 sets of glyphs could be designated in a similar manner. And to get the sixth set, you'd put the 5th set of glyphs in the first 6 chevrons, and then use the 7th chevron for 1 of 8 glyphs which have the values of m from 1 to 8. If the basic address coordinates you wanted were (1,8,9)[5], (1,9,8)[5], (8,1,9)[5], (8,9,1)[5], (9,1,8)[5], (9,8,1)[5], but you wanted the 6th set of cube distances, then the 7th chevron value of m=1 would modify the address to be (1,8,9)[(n=5)+m], (1,9,8)[5+m], (8,1,9)[5+m], (8,9,1)[5+m], (9,1,8)[5+m], (9,8,1)[5+m], and the values of the cubes would be (1+3(5-1+m))^3, (2+3(5-1+m))^3, and (3+3(5-1+m))^3, or (1+3(4+m))^3, (2+3(4+m))^3, and (3+3(4+m))^3. So those eight modifiers would allow cubed value distances up to the 13th set of cubes, or up to (3+3(4+8))^3, or 39^3.

This 'method' includes one "39" value in the computations, which is kinda neat, but I've only accounted for 38 glyphs so far. However, when you include the PoO, then you get 39!

Another thing I wanted to address which I didn't figure out in that earlier post was the location for any destination gate that may happen to be in any "negative" direction. I figure the first six coordinates/glyphs/chevrons will pinpoint the coordinates of the destination gate, and the coordinates of the destination will then be calculated and known. The coordinates that I've described so far deal with locations which have a positive x, y, and z displacement. But there may be a destination gate that people need to go to that has a negative displacement, depending on how the (Cartesian) coordinate system is defined, unless Stargates are only in one octant of space!

Well, I figured that this situation could be solved with the next chevron! The eight glyphs that represent m=1 to 8 can take on another meaning if placed in the eighth chevron position. Those eight glyphs can act as identifiers for the different octants in space, where 1 is the default for destination gates with positive x, y, and z coordinates, and the rest are 2 for (-x,+y,+z), 3=(+x,-y,+z), 4=(+x,+y,-z), 5=(-x,-y,+z), 6=(-x,+y,-z), 7=(+x,-y,-z), and 8=(-x,-y,-z).

However, if the octant needs to be identified, but the 7th chevron needs a default value of "0" for a position-holder, then maybe the PoO can be defined as "0" (zero) and placed in that 7th position so the 8th chevron can then be specified. And if the 7th chevron is used, and the default octant is all that's required, then the 8th chevron would have to be programmed to recognize "0" (the PoO) or "1" as the default.

Well, that pretty much concludes my idea of how the Ancients might use three base values (since 3 or multiples of three have shown up in their designs), such as 1, 8, and 9, to get around the galaxies with the Stargate. I just made some assumptions (such as, maybe the Ancients like cubed numbers, because it is the 3rd power?!?) and defined some givens without explanation (e.g., 5 sets of glyphs are defined as coordinates, which means there are only 30 out of 39 glyphs that can represent points in space. And 5 isn't a multiple of 3!) and then tried to flesh out other details as I thought of them. Also, my idea doesn't use a base 8 system (which is SG fact from "The Fifth Race"), but I did provide explanations for the 39 glyphs and 9 chevrons (the first six are coordinates, the 7th is a "distance multiplier" if necessary, or a default of zero with the PoO, the 8th is an octant identifier if needed, or a default of 0 or 1 and used for the PoO, and the 9th is for the PoO if the 7th and 8th are used).

And finally, based on the premise I created, with 720 possible addresses defined from the first set of cubes (and based on a 'rule' that one glyph of the first set can't be used with any other set), and with 13 sets of cubes, and with 8 octants to define 3-dimensional space, then this system would only be able to define (720*13*8=74,880) less than 75,000 possible gate destinations. If you want, you could calculate how many possible addresses there are if glyphs from different sets can be intermixed, too, though.

So I took an idea and ran with it! It's just my idea of how the Stargate might work based on some flawed "rules", givens and assumptions. I like the explanation, but it would be great if it fit in with the SG plotlines, too! Oh well. Criticize away!

[brooks_lt]

Dude, far too much time on your hands, but I love the idea. It would be interesting to see how closely you've managed to flesh out a system that is probably only at the most basic level in the minds of the shows creators. BTW, are you a physicist or a mathematician? If neither, you should consider a change of occupation!

[Z_2]

...It would be interesting to see how closely you've managed to flesh out a system that is probably only at the most basic level in the minds of the shows creators.

What?!? The whole premise of a Stargate is relying on the idea that some system of determining the destinations is defined. But that system may not be fully determined yet? Sadness.

Well, I wanted to figure out a reason why there are 9 chevrons and 39 glyphs and somehow tie it into a design scheme based on threes that I noticed, so that's what I came up with. But yeah, it'll be neat to see how TPTB explain (if they ever do) how the Ancients use base 8 and how the 8th and 9th chevrons are used, and why there are 39 glyphs, too.

[greytop]

Yeah, I figured it has been discussed about the Ancients; I just didn't search for a thread about it, and I'm new here. Is there any official info that talks about the number "3" connection?

And maybe it's actually a number "6" connection, but 6 doesn't go into 9 (for the chevrons) evenly...

6 doesn't go into 9 but the number 3 does. 3x3=9. So if the Ancients use the number 3 it would work for the chevrons on the stargate.