IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is about Stargate... and it's also about religion. I really can't say what I need to say without talking about both. Odds are some of what I'm about to say is controversial, so in the interests of making life a little easier for the mods, I've created an identical thread here in the Off Topic forum.
This thread (the one you're reading) is for posting discussion that specifically relates to Stargate. That thread is for posting discussion that doesn't specifically relate to Stargate.
A Little Background on Me:
I'm a Christian. At least that's how I define myself when it comes to belief. I was in a Fundamentalist group through most of college, and then I got involved in some online discussions (this was back in the days of telnet, btw), and realized that a good deal of Fundamentalism is unnaturally rigid and doesn't allow for the possibility of differing interpretations - and many of my interpretations ended up being different from that of most of my friends. Or anybody else's, for that matter.
Plus, I always had serious problems (both theological and personal) with evangelism. I left the group for a number of reasons, but mostly because I found myself disagreeing with most of what was being said - and I'd discovered that a lot of people's faith simply can't stand up to a little doubt, even about the most insignificant details, because their faith doesn't allow for any flexibility. Not wanting to be responsible for making good people lose their faith, I left. That was about 10 years ago - currently, I'm in a serious off-again phase, but I still identify myself as basically Christian.
My Comments:
When Season 9 started and we were introduced to the Ori, the first thing I noticed was the obvious resemblance between Harod and Sallis's community and medieval Europe, and the similarities between "prostration" and worship in the Catholic church.
Then, at the end of Avalon, Vala was burned to death. Which, of course, instantly called to mind witch burning and the Inquisition. And then she was healed - an obvious reference to resurrection and healing of the sick. If that wasn't enough, they even had Gregorian chants playing in the background.
I loved Avalon. I loved the interaction between Daniel and Vala, the introduction to Mitchell, and the extremely touching scene at the end of Avalon where they show Daniel ignoring everything else and going to Vala, and then they show from above him holding her, and nothing moves except his hand stroking hers. It was beautiful.
I even loved the Ori plotline at the end of Avalon. It seemed, at the time, that the show might have some good moral about the evils of evangelism in general.
...Then I watched Origin. The proverbial pink elephant, which was already quite large, got a bit bigger. We learned about the teachings of Origin, which bear remarkable resemblance to Fundamentalist teachings about Creation. Daniel questions some of the Priors' interpretations, which instantly brought to my mind the many, many debates that I've been in that were exactly like that discussion (almost word for word). I thought, "Ok, they're making a point about flexibility in belief and acknowledging that your interpretations might not be correct in everything, and not killing people over what you believe vs. what they believe. And it's a good point. Yay writers."
But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.
This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...
Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.
OTOH, there were a few notable differences between Origin and Biblical teachings that they called attention to. That was nice. I also liked the end of Origin where they kind of referenced God as a benevolent being looking out for us... it was good to have something to contrast God with the Ori, instead of just creating parallels between them.
So, I thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking into this a little too much. I could just choose to not see the parallels that are leaping out at me. Or I could just consider this a work of frivolous fiction - even though I hate having to do that with a show that I started watching in the first place because I loved how it makes me really think about things."
And then I thought, "Hey! Maybe the Ori are really meant to represent followers of a religion, and it's really the philosophy of Ascension that's the basis for the religion itself. Ascension is, after all, based on a plotline that's mostly grounded in philosophy, not theology. Maybe the Ori really do want to help people ascend, but they've lost sight of the fact that people can't be saved by something they're following for the wrong reasons. As well as the fact that you can't force somebody to believe something, and it's wrong to try, because it ends up doing more harm than good." (see above re: me having problems with evangelism).
And I continued to think that. Right up until "The Fourth Horseman". Not minding, and in fact even appreciating, the ever-growing pink elephant.
But then "The Fourth Horseman" happened. And, it turns out, the Ori have been lying to everybody!
This is where I started to really have a problem. Because the allegorical nature of the story didn't stop there. Oh no. It just got worse.
And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God, are lying. That they have no motivation that could be considered benevolent.
This is just wrong, on so many levels.
I can understand how somebody might resent some of the actions in the Bible on the grounds that they were harsh. What I cannot accept, understand, or condone is the implication that God is somehow deceitful. There is no justification for that, no evidence to support that idea in the least, and it's... slander. Against somebody who really, really, really does not deserve it.
I loved the Ori plotline in the first part of Season 9. Since the Fourth Horseman, though, I've been watching the show in spite of the Ori plotline. And, in fact, I have to rationalize in order to justify continuing to watch to myself. Nobody should ever have to rationalize in order to justify enjoying a show. When they have to do that, there's something wrong with the show. Not only that, but I rationalize by trying not to think about the pink elephant. I like thinking about metaphorical meanings and morals in shows! I don't want to have to stop!
As far as I can think, the show can do one of three things to rectify this problem in Season 10:
Ok, I'm done. Replies welcome, although please reference the note at the top of this post when figuring out where to reply.
This thread (the one you're reading) is for posting discussion that specifically relates to Stargate. That thread is for posting discussion that doesn't specifically relate to Stargate.
A Little Background on Me:
I'm a Christian. At least that's how I define myself when it comes to belief. I was in a Fundamentalist group through most of college, and then I got involved in some online discussions (this was back in the days of telnet, btw), and realized that a good deal of Fundamentalism is unnaturally rigid and doesn't allow for the possibility of differing interpretations - and many of my interpretations ended up being different from that of most of my friends. Or anybody else's, for that matter.
Plus, I always had serious problems (both theological and personal) with evangelism. I left the group for a number of reasons, but mostly because I found myself disagreeing with most of what was being said - and I'd discovered that a lot of people's faith simply can't stand up to a little doubt, even about the most insignificant details, because their faith doesn't allow for any flexibility. Not wanting to be responsible for making good people lose their faith, I left. That was about 10 years ago - currently, I'm in a serious off-again phase, but I still identify myself as basically Christian.
My Comments:
When Season 9 started and we were introduced to the Ori, the first thing I noticed was the obvious resemblance between Harod and Sallis's community and medieval Europe, and the similarities between "prostration" and worship in the Catholic church.
Then, at the end of Avalon, Vala was burned to death. Which, of course, instantly called to mind witch burning and the Inquisition. And then she was healed - an obvious reference to resurrection and healing of the sick. If that wasn't enough, they even had Gregorian chants playing in the background.
I loved Avalon. I loved the interaction between Daniel and Vala, the introduction to Mitchell, and the extremely touching scene at the end of Avalon where they show Daniel ignoring everything else and going to Vala, and then they show from above him holding her, and nothing moves except his hand stroking hers. It was beautiful.
I even loved the Ori plotline at the end of Avalon. It seemed, at the time, that the show might have some good moral about the evils of evangelism in general.
...Then I watched Origin. The proverbial pink elephant, which was already quite large, got a bit bigger. We learned about the teachings of Origin, which bear remarkable resemblance to Fundamentalist teachings about Creation. Daniel questions some of the Priors' interpretations, which instantly brought to my mind the many, many debates that I've been in that were exactly like that discussion (almost word for word). I thought, "Ok, they're making a point about flexibility in belief and acknowledging that your interpretations might not be correct in everything, and not killing people over what you believe vs. what they believe. And it's a good point. Yay writers."
But then it turns out that there was no misinterpretation. That the Ori were, in fact, actively teaching the Priors (who were in turn teaching the people) that all unbelievers must be destroyed, as must all evidence that contradicts the active teachings of the Ori.
This is when I started to have a problem. Because suddenly, this story isn't attacking Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any specific faith or belief, or the people who insist on the irrefutability of their interpretations to the extent of all others...
Instead, it's attacking God. Not just some people's idea of Him. But God Himself.
OTOH, there were a few notable differences between Origin and Biblical teachings that they called attention to. That was nice. I also liked the end of Origin where they kind of referenced God as a benevolent being looking out for us... it was good to have something to contrast God with the Ori, instead of just creating parallels between them.
So, I thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking into this a little too much. I could just choose to not see the parallels that are leaping out at me. Or I could just consider this a work of frivolous fiction - even though I hate having to do that with a show that I started watching in the first place because I loved how it makes me really think about things."
And then I thought, "Hey! Maybe the Ori are really meant to represent followers of a religion, and it's really the philosophy of Ascension that's the basis for the religion itself. Ascension is, after all, based on a plotline that's mostly grounded in philosophy, not theology. Maybe the Ori really do want to help people ascend, but they've lost sight of the fact that people can't be saved by something they're following for the wrong reasons. As well as the fact that you can't force somebody to believe something, and it's wrong to try, because it ends up doing more harm than good." (see above re: me having problems with evangelism).
And I continued to think that. Right up until "The Fourth Horseman". Not minding, and in fact even appreciating, the ever-growing pink elephant.
But then "The Fourth Horseman" happened. And, it turns out, the Ori have been lying to everybody!
This is where I started to really have a problem. Because the allegorical nature of the story didn't stop there. Oh no. It just got worse.
- The plotlines of "The Powers that Be" and "The Scourge" are taken directly from the book of Exodus. Minus the whole reason for the Plagues, of course ("Let my people go") - in the show, it's just punishment for not believing. However, most people are not going to think of "Let my people go," when they watch the show - they'll just notice the similarities between what's happening in the show and the Plagues. They won't stop to think about the differences.
- The "doomsday" prophecies call the book of Revelations to mind.
- And I trust I don't even need to mention the healing of the sick, the preachings from the Book of Origin, the motivations of the followers, and of course the whole immaculate conception thing.
And it turns out the Ori, who are clearly meant as a metaphor for God, are lying. That they have no motivation that could be considered benevolent.
This is just wrong, on so many levels.
I can understand how somebody might resent some of the actions in the Bible on the grounds that they were harsh. What I cannot accept, understand, or condone is the implication that God is somehow deceitful. There is no justification for that, no evidence to support that idea in the least, and it's... slander. Against somebody who really, really, really does not deserve it.
I loved the Ori plotline in the first part of Season 9. Since the Fourth Horseman, though, I've been watching the show in spite of the Ori plotline. And, in fact, I have to rationalize in order to justify continuing to watch to myself. Nobody should ever have to rationalize in order to justify enjoying a show. When they have to do that, there's something wrong with the show. Not only that, but I rationalize by trying not to think about the pink elephant. I like thinking about metaphorical meanings and morals in shows! I don't want to have to stop!
As far as I can think, the show can do one of three things to rectify this problem in Season 10:
- They can stop copying plotlines from the Bible.
Or...
- They can show that the Ori have copied Christianity deliberately, the way the Goa'uld impersonated existing Gods. I can't think how this could work with the logic of the show, though.
Or...
- They could have Vala's baby bear no resemblance, in any way, shape, or form, to Jesus whatsoever. Not physically, not in terms of how he/she lives his/her life, nothing.
- It could be a completely normal baby in every way. Meaning that there is absolutely nothing unusual about him/her except how he/she came to be. The baby could have been conceived for the sole purpose of having the Ori be able to say, "Look at us! We made a baby! Isn't it a miracle?"
- It could be an abnormal baby, but in a way that is clearly bad and clearly completely unrelated to Jesus's life. That means no resurrection, no followers, and above all, NO TEACHING!
Because, if it turns out that, on top of everything else, Vala's baby is some messianic figure who displays uncommon wisdom for his age, gathers disciples, teaches to all the wisdom of the Book of Origin, is martyred, and comes back to life, I WILL have to stop watching.
Ok, I'm done. Replies welcome, although please reference the note at the top of this post when figuring out where to reply.
Comment