Terminator TV Show - "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" - "SPOILERS FOR ALL EPISODES"

[Daniel Jackson]

It's rarely explained, because it's usually assumed that if you're in the past, you're not effected by what happens to the future.

Star Trek's time travel episodes aren't consistant, but let's stick to Terminator's portrayal of time travel.

[Oreo]

Unfortunately, they usually don't explain a way to protect the traveler from changes. In trek, though, they sorta did... Chromoton particles would shield the traveler from the effects of time travel, hence how the USS ENterprise-E was able to travel back with the Borg Sphere and not be destroyed when the Borg assimilated Earth.

Geek.

[IcyNeko]

Geek.

And proud of it.

[SG13-NightOps]

Ok, so I know this is on fox - and on fox, not even Cameron himself could save it (Dark Angel), but I am thinking the Writers Strike may really help TSCC. Its getting 24's slot, and like it or not, its a popular show. With a lot of other shows going into Rerun mode may also get people that would normally stick to their regulars to dip their toes into something else.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I quite enjoyed it myself and hope that it does get a chance.

[Ace]

The problem i have with time travel is if the future has been changed then the events in the first movie should never have happened, even to the point where Reese (if i remember his name properly) would not of been sent back and John Conner would never have been born. I creates a paradox that always ruins time travel stories for me.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly... because what you stated above is not true. If Judgement Day still happens and the war between the machines still happens as it does in SCC then Reese is still sent back by John to protect Sarah in 1984.

The only thing that has changed is when Judgement Day will occur and according to one of the writers on the show it now happens in 2011. For SCC you have to disregard T3 completely. SCC in the minds of the writers and producers is taking the place of T3.

Ace

[Daniel Jackson]

If Judgment Day is delayed from 1997 to 2011, then Reese will either never exist or exist as a completely different person. In 1984, Sarah will encounter Reese and a Terminator from a defunct future. In 1995, Sarah and John will encounter a pair of Terminators from that same defunct future, but thanks to the actions of T2, an entirely new future has been created, so all bets are off. This applies to both the TV show and T3 regardless of them being separate continuities, because they are both continuations of T2 which is where the timeline was severaly altered.

[Ace]

If Judgment Day is delayed from 1997 to 2011, then Reese will either never exist or exist as a completely different person. In 1984, Sarah will encounter Reese and a Terminator from a defunct future. In 1995, Sarah and John will encounter a pair of Terminators from that same defunct future, but thanks to the actions of T2, an entirely new future has been created, so all bets are off. This applies to both the TV show and T3 regardless of them being separate continuities, because they are both continuations of T2 which is where the timeline was severaly altered.

No... the only thing will change is the date. Reese grew up after the war had begun. Obviously that will change as he will be born before the war but grow up fighting the machines until Skynet is eventually defeated. He may be older when he travels back in time but that is all that has changed.

All of the main events remain the same... the events have simply been pushed back in the time line.

Ace

[Daniel Jackson]

No... the only thing will change is the date.

In Terminator 2: Judgment Day, they destroyed all of the Cyberdine Systems research, all of it. Miles Dyson died. They killed the T-1000, melted down their Terminator protector, and then melted down the remains of the original Terminator from 1984. They destroyed everything they could think of that would lead to the creation of Skynet and subsequent Terminators. For all intents and purposes, they stopped Judgment Day. However, Sarah Connor is wise enough to know that anything can happen. Then a Terminator and Cameron show up, and they're informed that they changed the future, just not enough. They did more than simply change the date, they created an entirely new future. Some things still come to pass like the creation of Skynet, Judgment Day, and the creation of Terminators. However, this is not the future that was glimpsed in T1 and T2, it is an entirely new one. Given all of these changes, there are two possibilities with Kyle Reese. He either exists completely differently or not at all. To be honest, I would like to see an episode where Kyle Reese is sent back to help the Connors and Cameron, but has no knowledge of the events of T1 nor the now defunct Cyberdine Systems.

[Ace]

In Terminator 2: Judgment Day, they destroyed all of the Cyberdine Systems research, all of it. Miles Dyson died. They killed the T-1000, melted down their Terminator protector, and then melted down the remains of the original Terminator from 1984. They destroyed everything they could think of that would lead to the creation of Skynet and subsequent Terminators. For all intents and purposes, they stopped Judgment Day. However, Sarah Connor is wise enough to know that anything can happen. Then a Terminator and Cameron show up, and they're informed that they changed the future, just not enough. They did more than simply change the date, they created an entirely new future. Some things still come to pass like the creation of Skynet, Judgment Day, and the creation of Terminators. However, this is not the future that was glimpsed in T1 and T2, it is an entirely new one.

Ok yes... I can agree to that. But as you yourself have said all the main events will still take place. Skynet will be built, Judgement Day, Terminator machines,John Connor as Resistance leader, Skynet's eventual defeat. The little details will change... who knows maybe he won't have a wife that he has already met. But the major stuff stays the same...

Given all of these changes, there are two possibilities with Kyle Reese. He either exists completely differently or not at all. To be honest, I would like to see an episode where Kyle Reese is sent back to help the Connors and Cameron, but has no knowledge of the events of T1 nor the now defunct Cyberdine Systems.

I don't see how you believe that these are the only possibilities...yes I suppose Reese could change completely. Not sure how he could not exist at all as John has to send him back in time. It's one of those main events...

A third possibility is the fact that Reese is exactly the same. He could be older as all of the main events have been shifted fourteen years into the future. Or maybe he could be the exact same age...as now Connor defeats the machines in less time than before. However both dates exist with the defeat of Skynet in 2029.

We don't know... at least until we have more information from the series other than just the pilot episode. Overall though the main points still exist and one of them has to be Reese being sent back through time.

Otherwise Sarah never knows about Judgement Day, doesn't have John, never learns how to fight a guerrilla war and passes the info on to John. Most importantly though she would never know the Message of "No Fate". So Reese has to exist and he doesn't need to change drastically.

Ace

[Daniel Jackson]

Ok yes... I can agree to that. But as you yourself have said all the main events will still take place. Skynet will be built, Judgement Day, Terminator machines,John Connor as Resistance leader, Skynet's eventual defeat. The little details will change... who knows maybe he won't have a wife that he has already met. But the major stuff stays the same...

I didn't say that all of the main events will still take place. Skynet will be built, but we don't know why this time. The Terminators will still be built by Skynet and Humanity (while creating Skynet), because Humanity creating killer robots is inevitable. We already have primitive machines that can do this today in reallity. Judgment Day occurs, because Skynet sees all of Humanity as a threat. John Connor survives Judgment Day and becomes the leader of the resistance, because that's what his whole life has been built up to. In the new future, we don't know Skynet will be defeated. We only know that a Terminator was sent back to 1999 to assasinate John Connor. Cameron was also sent back to 1999 to protect him.

Now we come to Kyle Reese... his existance is not pivital, therefore he could exist or not exist, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The only ones who have to exist are Sarah and John Connor. Everyone else is expendable in the context of fighting Skynet or existing in alternate timelines.

I don't see how you believe that these are the only possibilities...yes I suppose Reese could change completely. Not sure how he could not exist at all as John has to send him back in time. It's one of those main events...

There are only three possibilities: Kyle Reese remains the same, the changes to the timeline result in a different Kyle Reese, or the changes to the timeline erase Kyle Reese from existance. Since the timeline was changed in 1995, before Reese was born, that guarantees that Kyle will not become the man he was in T1. He will live a different life or never be born. As for how he can not exist at all and John having to send him back to 1984... those are not main events. Those were main events of the original future, the one that was eliminated in 1995. That future will no longer come to pass. I've seen the pilot episode, and it makes it quite clear that Cameron and Cromartie are from a very different future than the one glimpsed in T1 and T2.

A third possibility is the fact that Reese is exactly the same. He could be older as all of the main events have been shifted fourteen years into the future. Or maybe he could be the exact same age...as now Connor defeats the machines in less time than before. However both dates exist with the defeat of Skynet in 2029.

Exactly the same? Impossible, since the timeline was altered in 1995. EVERYTHING that happens after that will happen differently. There could be a Kyle Reese, but not the sane as the Kyle Reese featured in T1. You say he would be exactly the same, then you say in the next sentence that he could be older... if he's older, he's not exactly the same. In T1 and T2, the Terminators are sent back from the year 2029 with the Schwarzenegger Terminators and the T-1000 being the most advanced. Then in the new TV show's new timeline, thanks to the events of T2, Terminators arrive from the year 2027, and according to the show's producers, Summer Glau plays "Cameron," the most advanced Terminator yet. This does not gel with the future presented in T1 and T2, therefore it must be a new, alternate future, cancelling out the one presented in T1 and T2.

We don't know... at least until we have more information from the series other than just the pilot episode. Overall though the main points still exist and one of them has to be Reese being sent back through time.

Kyle Reese has already gone back in time. It's already happened. It doesn't have to happen again. You're trying to force a predestination paradox into the equation. While the first movie presented a predestination paradox, the sequel broke that paradox in favor of altering the timeline. The TV show is taking this even further.

Otherwise Sarah never knows about Judgement Day, doesn't have John, never learns how to fight a guerrilla war and passes the info on to John. Most importantly though she would never know the Message of "No Fate". So Reese has to exist and he doesn't need to change drastically.

Let me present you a timeline so you can understand.

Timeline A (Predestination Paradox)
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1997: Judgement Day
2029: The evil Terminator and Kyle Reese are sent back to 1984. When the timeline does not change, the T-1000 and the good Terminator are sent back in time. Consequently, this timeline ceases to exist.

Timeline B
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1995: The events of T2 play out.
2011: Judgement Day
2027: Cromartie and Cameron are sent back to 1999.

Timeline C
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1995: The events of T2 play out.
1999: TSCC's Pilot
2008: Sarah, John, and Cameron arrive in 2008 to prevent Skynet from being created.

[Dumper]

Let me present you a timeline so you can understand.

Timeline A (Predestination Paradox)
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1997: Judgement Day
2029: The evil Terminator and Kyle Reese are sent back to 1984. When the timeline does not change, the T-1000 and the good Terminator are sent back in time. Consequently, this timeline ceases to exist.

Timeline B
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1995: The events of T2 play out.
2011: Judgement Day
2027: Cromartie and Cameron are sent back to 1999.

Timeline C
1984: The events of T1 play out.
1985: John Connor is born.
1995: The events of T2 play out.
1999: TSCC's Pilot
2008: Sarah, John, and Cameron arrive in 2008 to prevent Skynet from being created.

Which leads back to my original question , because of the events of the second movie, Reese would not be sent back to 1984 as the future would be different. As Daniel Jackson says, Reese would either not exist or he would be a totally different person, now if that's the case who is the father of John Conner? Personally i just think the writers got themselves in a mess which pretty much happens with every timetravel story.

[Daniel Jackson]

The answer to your question is: Kyle Reese. The future being changed does not undo what already happened in 1984, even though that was a direct result of the future. Think of Kyle Reese and the Terminator appearing in 1984 as leftovers from a future that no longer exists.

[Dumper]

The answer to your question is: Kyle Reese. The future being changed does not undo what already happened in 1984, even though that was a direct result of the future. Think of Kyle Reese and the Terminator appearing in 1984 as leftovers from a future that no longer exists.

I'm afraid that is something i can't get my head around . Maybe i will have to go for an Alternate reality explanation. Where one reality still exists which has the future as Reese explained it, and by Reese going back in time he then created another reality which we have been seeing throughout.

[Daniel Jackson]

The movies feature time travel, not parallel reallities, so that doesn't apply.

[Dumper]

It's the time travel that caused the Alternate reality, fair enough it's not mentioned in the movies but for me it makes more sense than other explanations i can come up with.