"The 4400" Discussion/Appreciation

[twiggy]

Spoiler:

i have missed Collier so much this season that it's like a breath from heaven now that he's back! wow, Isabelle actually looked unsure of herself when talking to him.

Anyone else think that she tried to kill him right there, but he just walked away? i'm just trying to explain the strange look on her face when he walked past her.

[Arative]

I loved this episode because Collier is back and he emerged as my favorite character next to Tom of course. I'm glad Kyle is back too, guess I never realized how much his character was tied to Collier, without Collier I think Kyle would have just been standing around not doing much. I'm glad the writers chose to play up the messiah angle to Collier, I mean its pretty much what a lot of people would do if someone was dead and then came back. I hope he doesn't revert back the the pre-death Collier and try to manuipulate people and start thinking he is better than everyone. But one of the last lines he said to Isabel, that he had to die in order to lose the pride makes me think that he will not but I could be wrong, he did seem arogant at the end of the episode.

It seemed to me, that Collier wasn't just brought to the future but he actually saw and lived through the catasrophe and he knows what is going to happen and he knows what he has to do in order to stop it. I wonder what abilites he came back with, that will be interesting to see. I'm thinking that he is going to be the opposite of Isabel in everyway.

I like that he stood up to Isabel but I think it is a mistake to send her away. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. At least living at the center, he'll be able to keep an eye on her. And he did save Shawn from marrying her which is an automatic plus in my book since I think she is a pyshco! I'm wondering how Richard will react to Jordan sending his daughter away, will he be relieved? Angry? Both?

Shawn seemed to be fawning over Jordan last night. I know that he believed that Jordan was the 4400 center, the glue that held them all together. I'm sure that he views Jordan not only as a father figure, do we know where Shawn's real father is, can't recall at the moment? but he also now views Jordan as a savior. I really hope that they don't turn Shawn into a simpering yes man now. I mean Shawn ran the center for a year or so while Collier was dead, he has to have learned some leadership ability and there should be some clashes between Shawn and Jordan and Richard.

I did not at all care for the Diana/Ben story line. Not that I care who she is with or if she is with anyone at all. But the entire purpose for bringing her sister back was so that Diana could steal her boyfriend, just rubbed me the wrong way. And Maia seems to have become a non-entity on the show now, just shows up to give some creepy pre-cog predicition or scream out, Mommy, I'm scared. I much prefered Maia of the first season, she was much creepier then. Leads me to another point, how much of what Maia said about Diana and Ben being together was actual pre-cog prediction and how much was Maia just wanting a father? A couple of things that I caught on in the episode. When Maia first tells Diana that she is going to marry Ben, Maia says, I finally have a father! Sounded really happy. Then when Diana comes home after the "date" in the art gallery, Maia had this smile on her face that she of course knew Diana was lying since she is a pre-cog but the smile just struck me as strange making me think that Maia was manuipluating Diana and Ben. Think about it, you have a daughter who is a pre-cog, she tells you something is suppose to happen, wouldn't you try and make sure it happened, like a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Anyway, love the 4400, started off a little but slow this year but I think this is shaping up to be a good third season and I can not wait for season 4. What we need to do is write USA and make them give us more than 13 episodes. It sucks waiting 9 months for only 13 weeks of shows!!!

[MarshAngel]

Spoiler:

It looks like I was the only one bothered by

Spoiler:

Jordan's interaction with Isabel. Shouldn't he be trying to help her nurture her good side and overcome her bad side? Doesn't the very fact of knowing the future enable one to change it? Open antagonism just doesn't seem right. I can't believe that free will somehow does not apply to her. Or is there some deeper game afoot?

Edit: Sorry--I can never remember when and when not to use the spoiler button.

I think he is absolutely certain about her. He doesn't think she's dangerous, he knows she is, hence his decision not to nurture the small good in her. And I think the past few weeks have definitely been trying to show that Isabel's good nature shrinks by the minute. Even when she is trying to do what she thinks is right by marrying Shawn she does it by force and threats. She started out sweet but every choice she makes shows what she's made of.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jordan is manipulating her and trying to get her to think about herself and her actions but I'm also inclined to believe he's right. I think his point is that Isabel is a tool. She might look human but by nature of what she is she cannot be anything but bad in ways even she cannot change no matter how much she wants to. Free will applies to that which can change willingly or unwillingly; perhaps he doesn't think she can be changed by external forces, because she's too powerful, or by herself because it goes against what she is.

She may still surprise us but I don't think the 4400 can count on that.

[Elwe Singollo]

Random annoyance, the way Billy Campbell spoke in this episode annoyed the hell out of me. It was sort of a loud whisper, and probably because i was in a bad mood with a headache, it bugged me too much, i seriously had to mute and turn on captions temporarily.

[warmbeachbrat]

But Isabel is not just a tool--she's a human being. And how much of her free will can really be taken from her? I'm wondering how much of her actions are because she is really just a baby in a woman's body. Babies are completely self-centered and amoral--they have to learn to respect other people and recognize their limitations. She never had that and has immense power to boot. I just wish there were some way for her to learn and to mature. I guess I was hoping Collier might find a way to do that. It doesn't help that she has people trying to manipulate her on every side.

Spoiler:

The way they're writing her, she never had a chance--it kind of goes against the grain for me.

ETA: Drat! I meant to quote you, MarshAngel, but I hit the wrong button. This is a reply to your post that is a reply to mine.

[twiggy]

has anyone else checked out "isabelle's blog"?

http://www.usanetwork.com/series/the...sabelle10.html

Spoiler:

it would seem as if Isabelle is going to be evil and Jordan will be good...

[langdonboom]

I loved this episode and its set up for next week even more! I look forward to Ryland getting Isabel with full co-operation against the 4400 center.

And the whole homeless/timeless/messiah angle is really working for me! Walled city! I love the whole Eloi/Morlocks style future catastrophe. Love that!

[yaaayoubetcha]

This ep had the best line of the season, by far.

"This place is mine again...and you are not welcome here."

Been waiting all season for somebody to put a smackdown in Isabel.

Also,

Spoiler:

I think that she tried to kill him just then, as she threatened him. I think the look on her face was fear that there is now at least 1 person she has no TK power over.

[stewsith]

I just borrowed the first season of this from a friend and I was blown away. It has so much potential for stories and i really want to see the next season now but only season 3 is on sky one an i dont want to spoil it.

[Jumper One]

Spoiler:

I never realized how much I liked Collier's characted until he came back.

[twiggy]

Spoiler:

I never realized how much I liked Collier's characted until he came back.

same here!!

[yaaayoubetcha]

same here!!

and here!

he was really the driving force for me.

the most active and most secretive as well. i always wanted to know what he was going to do/say next.

[MarshAngel]

But Isabel is not just a tool--she's a human being. And how much of her free will can really be taken from her?

Is she a human being? She's probably the least human human on the planet.
Perhaps they programmed her personality so that no matter what she decides, it's always going to be a result of what she is ie. So she can try to act differently all she wants but it might not work. Even if Isabel tries to be good, it's possible that the way events play out, push her to choose the wrong way.

I just wish there were some way for her to learn and to mature. I guess I was hoping Collier might find a way to do that. It doesn't help that she has people trying to manipulate her on every side.

I think that might just be the problem. In ideal conditions perhaps her better nature would have greater success. But the situation as it is, probably works against that.

I'm still crossing my fingers that Collier is just trying some reverse psychology on her or pushing her into making a choice that will work out for the best,

[Arative]

Is she a human being? She's probably the least human human on the planet.
Perhaps they programmed her personality so that no matter what she decides, it's always going to be a result of what she is ie. So she can try to act differently all she wants but it might not work. Even if Isabel tries to be good, it's possible that the way events play out, push her to choose the wrong way.

I think that might just be the problem. In ideal conditions perhaps her better nature would have greater success. But the situation as it is, probably works against that.

I'm still crossing my fingers that Collier is just trying some reverse psychology on her or pushing her into making a choice that will work out for the best,

I do think that Isabel has a choice in the matter. She could have chosen not to hurt people rescuing Shawn. She could have chosen not to kill Mathew Ross. She could have chosen not help Ryland get the promicin. But I do have to conceded the possibilty that she has been programmed, after all people who can bring people forward in time and change them on a genetic level should have no problem changing the genetic code enough to make someone do something.

A thought occured to me earlier in the day. I think we as the audience have been carefully manuiplated into believing Isabel is evil. Nearly every episode some character says that Isabel is evil or will cause the catastrophe. What if we got it wrong or at least the writers want us to get it wrong? What if Isabel really is the savior of the human race and Collier really is the one who causes the catastrophe? Isabel came first really, she was sent back with the original 4400, how would the scientists who thought up the 4400 allow some rival to implant Lily with an embryo that would turn into their greatest threat? What would make more sense, that Isabel was really the savior sent back originally as a christ figure (immaculate birth, special powers, etc...) or the future people who want to keep the status quo, took Collier after his death and turned him into the anti-4400 to bring about the catastrophe in order to keep the status quo? What better way to make things turn out the way you want that to make a savior that everyone will listen too? Someone who came back from the dead? Someone who mirrors christ's resurrection?

From the beginning, Mathew was filling Isabel's head with the fact that she was created to kill the 4400. If people tell you that a lot, how soon until you believe it? If you're really powerful and people tell you, you can do anything, and people are telling you that you are evil, how soon until you believe it? Specially if you really don't know who you are as a person?

Forgive my rambling, maybe I'm just cynical but I don't trust the fact that the writers have gone out of their way to paint Isabel as evil and Jordan as good.

[MarshAngel]

From the beginning, Mathew was filling Isabel's head with the fact that she was created to kill the 4400. If people tell you that a lot, how soon until you believe it? If you're really powerful and people tell you, you can do anything, and people are telling you that you are evil, how soon until you believe it? Specially if you really don't know who you are as a person?

Forgive my rambling, maybe I'm just cynical but I don't trust the fact that the writers have gone out of their way to paint Isabel as evil and Jordan as good.

If you're cynical, you're not alone. I have thought about that too. I wouldn't be surprised by either route. I actually like this one a little bit better since it's a bit less straightforward. At the same time, Collier was set up to be a possible bad guy from the start so maybe we're still on that same path?

But just because Collier's evil doesn't necessarily make Isabel good or vice versa. Rather than good vs evil it might just be a case of which psycho nutjob's plan works out better in the end.