Who is your favorite villain of all time?

[Cold Fuzz]

Sauron at his peak was more powerful than Morgoth, by the time Melkor was known as Morgoth he had already spent most of his power corrupting Arda.

Melkor > Sauron > Morgoth - at their peak.

By whatever name we choose to identify him, the actions committed by Melkor/Morgoth/The Dark Lord/whatever were committed by the same being. This matter of semantics is immaterial to his overall degree of strength, cunning, and malice. Sauron as a Maia was incapable of defeating Huan, who was essentially was a Maia similar to Thorondor. Sauron at his peak (with the Ring) was defeated by Elendil, Gil-galad and their lieutenants. Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, was virtually unassailable without substantial help from the Ainur. The only reason I use the name Morgoth is because every character and even Tolkien himself stopped referring to him as Melkor in the narratives after he stole the Silmarils.

One of the biggest points Tolkien was trying to make with all this that Elves, Men, and Dwarves were incapable of defeating Morgoth's kind of evil by themselves (without the Ainur—that is, "divine" aid).

[Sami_]

By whatever name we choose to identify him, the actions committed by Melkor/Morgoth/The Dark Lord/whatever were committed by the same being. This matter of semantics is immaterial to his overall degree of strength, cunning, and malice. Sauron as a Maia was incapable of defeating Huan, who was essentially was a Maia similar to Thorondor. Sauron at his peak (with the Ring) was defeated by Elendil, Gil-galad and their lieutenants. Morgoth/Melkor, on the other hand, was virtually unassailable without substantial help from the Ainur.

One of the biggest points Tolkien was trying to make with all this that Elves, Men, and Dwarves were incapable of defeating Morgoth's kind of evil by themselves (without the Ainur—that is, "divine" aid).

Power of beings in Tolkien's universe are not static and changes with the ages.

Before entering the world Melkor and the other Valar were far far more powerful than any being that ever set foot on Arda but as I said Melkor used up all but a small portion of his power corrupting everything in Arda and as a result in his human form (the form when he does all the feats you talk about) he wasn't nearly as powerful as he had been. Sauron on the other hand gains more and more power throughout the ages and even finds a way to use the power that Melkor used to corrupt Arda.

This isn't anything new though, Tolkien has already clarified all of this in his works, Morgoth had expended all his power in his efforts to destroy the land and life while Sauron consolidated power and only sought to control rather than destroy.

Also Morgoth was far from unassailable, Ungoliant had him at her mercy and he was only freed because he called out to his Balrogs.

[Cold Fuzz]

Power of beings in Tolkien's universe are not static and changes with the ages.

I never claimed it was.

Before entering the world Melkor and the other Valar were far far more powerful than any being that ever set foot on Arda but as I said Melkor used up all but a small portion of his power corrupting everything in Arda and as a result in his human form (the form when he does all the feats you talk about) he wasn't nearly as powerful as he had been. Sauron on the other hand gains more and more power throughout the ages and even finds a way to use the power that Melkor used to corrupt Arda.

Sauron was doing the same thing as well, driving his will into the Orcs. Morgoth/Melkor use much of his will tocontrol the Orcs.

This isn't anything new though, Tolkien has already clarified all of this in his works, Morgoth had expended all his power in his efforts to destroy the land and life while Sauron consolidated power and only sought to control rather than destroy.

Morgoth expended his power in controlling Orcs and other dark beings, much the same way Sauron did. Morgoth was interested in control more than he was interested in destroying. Otherwise, he would have destroyed Middle-earth. Before the War of Wrath, he had virtual control of Middle-earth.

Also Morgoth was far from unassailable, Ungoliant had him at her mercy and he was only freed because he called out to his Balrogs.

In the end Morgoth's realm was unassailable from Elves, Men, and Dwarves. They would never have defeated him themselves. Ungoliant was not a mortal being if she could confound even the Valar. Then again, Tolkien never really clarified what Ungoliant was exactly.

[Sami_]

Well I don't really feel like proving it to you. It seems you are a Tolkien fan so I suggest you read "Morgoth's Ring", it will explain it to you.

Morgoth was interested in control more than he was interested in destroying.

This is such a ridiculous statement, I'm guessing you've only read the silmarillion and even then its kind of ridiculous, Tolkien in his works constantly points out that Morgoth is the ultimate Nihilist - he wants to destroy everything in Arda and if he had been successful against his enemies he would have turned on his servants.

[Cold Fuzz]

Well I don't really feel like proving it to you. It seems you are a Tolkien fan so I suggest you read "Morgoth's Ring", it will explain it to you.

I already have read it.

[Sami_]

I already have read it.

Okay, I'm eating breakfast so let me finish and I'll find my copy of the Silmarillion and read it to you

[Sami_]

Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. And later after things had become more stable, Melkor was more interested in and capable of dealing with a volcanic eruption, for example, than
with (say) a tree. It is indeed probable that he was simply unaware of the minor or more delicate productions of Yavanna: such as small flowers.* Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction.

From Morgoth's Ring The History of Middle-Earth Volume 10.

[Cold Fuzz]

I remember that fragment. I believe that was somewhere from the Myth's Transformed section? I don't remember the exact area. Anyway my original point was about Sauron and Morgoth's overall strength and evil—their entirety of their being and their actions from the beginning to the end. Morgoth had most of his being pass into corrupting and staining the earth and other beings and exerted his will on them. That is control.

And there is: "Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings"

It may be breakfast for you but it is bed time for me with work tomorrow. Good night.

[Sami_]

I remember that fragment. I believe that was somewhere from the Myth's Transformed section? I don't remember the exact area. Anyway my original point was about Sauron and Morgoth's overall strength and evil—their entirety of their being and their actions from the beginning to the end. Morgoth had most of his being pass into corrupting and staining the earth and other beings was to exert his will on them. That is control.

And there is: "Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings"

It may be breakfast for you but it is bed time for me. Good night.

More limited prior to Melkor corrupting everything in Arda which is long before even the First Age, before Sauron is even corrupted by Melkor.

So all the time Sauron was serving as Melkor's Lieutenant Melkor was less powerful than Sauron would be in the Second Age.

And you are still clinging to this notion that Melkor wanted to control rather than destroy? try reading the last line of my quote. Pouring his power into Arda wasn't to control it, it was to destroy it and change it just as he had tried to do to Eru's music.

The whole point of the book being called "Morgoth's Ring" is that he poured his power into Arda just as Sauron poured his power into his ring but the difference is that unlike Saurons ring that he could put on his finger and wield its power Melkor simply lost his power.