Immortal Sins (407)

[Spimman]

While Angelo is obviously in on this whole thing, let's not forget the three men who shook hands in a triangle way when they agreed to purchase Jack. Those 3 had to be the brains (at least originally) behind the whole thing. I'm guessing next week we'll see how they and Angelo have worked together on this, and they are likely alien.

Angelo is how old at this point? Roughly 110? Was he already made immortal?

[thecolouryes]

Ugh, sloppy writing. Both season-wide and individual to this episode. The story of the scorned lover in the 20s should have been told right near the beginning of the season, or else gradually in bits throughout each episode up till now. The way it's been handled now, I feel like I've been jerked around for six episodes guessing at something that couldn't possibly have been known till episode 7. Lame. Extremely lame.

And the writing in this episode itself was pretty frickin' lousy too. Paper-thin explanation for Jack's being in America, Jack being a supposedly covert TW agent who apparently springs thieving illegal immigrants because they make his pants twitch, flat and poorly told relationship between Jack and Angelo, wasted opportunity to do a bit of period-piece storytelling, pretty much zero reason for Jack to bring Angelo in on TW, mostly lifeless dialogue between Jack and Gwen in the car the whole episode long, and really--Gwen needing to borrow Jack was suddenly suspicious to Esther, and she randomly decides to check the contact lenses? Wtf?

Who wrote this garbage?

I hated it too. While I was watching it, especially the 20s bits, I kept wondering to myself if the writers had gotten tired and searched the online vault of awful fanfiction for some particularly poorly written Jack/OC smut fic and then cast it. But that's just my opinion as a fanfiction author who's seen a lot of the awful stuff fans think other fans want to read. [Apparently, some fans even want to read it.]

While Angelo is obviously in on this whole thing, let's not forget the three men who shook hands in a triangle way when they agreed to purchase Jack. Those 3 had to be the brains (at least originally) behind the whole thing. I'm guessing next week we'll see how they and Angelo have worked together on this, and they are likely alien.

Angelo is how old at this point? Roughly 110? Was he already made immortal?

Agree on the point about those three. Seemed alien when we met them because their cadences/habits weren't exactly identical to the rest of everyone else supposedly from the 20s. And otherwise, this has been so far a totally alien-free series about alien invasions (?!?).

Oh, and the thing with Angelo (I thought) was kind of obvious. He's probably in a wheel chair on life support somewhere, and Miracle Day was perfectly timed to keep him alive.

[Spimman]

Oh, and the thing with Angelo (I thought) was kind of obvious. He's probably in a wheel chair on life support somewhere, and Miracle Day was perfectly timed to keep him alive.

Quite possibly, but why would he want to live forever like that? Unless he is somehow gaining something else from the "Miracle"

[Flyboy]

I'm gonna have to agree with much of what's been said here.

I actually think it was a better episode than last weeks, but it had its problems.

Ironically, minor issues are the most annoying ones, specifically the coat, as has already been mentioned. Now, it IS entirely possible that Jack could have gotten such a coat Pre-WW1, though I wonder about that...

What gets me is that Jack has always been rather... better at the Doctor at blending in in his time period. Not necessarily ALWAYS in clothing, but in appearance, take his hair and the style of his coat in the CoE flash backs.

I did like the 'Goa'uld' sub plot, very Torchwoood, very cool. Ironic that the big bad behind that was a villain first introduced in The Sarah Jane Adventures, named in passing by an angry father...

[DigiFluid]

Ironic that the big bad behind that was a villain first introduced in The Sarah Jane Adventures, named in passing by an angry father...

I missed that reference completely. Fill me in?

[Flyboy]

I missed that reference completely. Fill me in?

The "Goa'uld" was put into the hands of the 'bad guys' by the Trickster's Brigade, according to Jack. The Trickster's first appearance was in The Sarah Jane Adventures episode: Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane?. The Trickster was named when Alan, Maria's father, first sees it and attempts to charge at it. So far the Trickster has only ever appeared in TSJA, but the Trickster's Brigade has been in Doctor Who, - Turn Left. It's the first Torchwood mention of The Trickster's Brigade, and it's not surprising, because the Trickster is actually quite laughable as a singularly entity, but quite chilling as a concept, hence why I think outside of TSJA the 'brigade' is utilised by writers, not the Trickster.

[DigiFluid]

Ahh okay. Yes, I remember the Trickster very well. I just missed the line in TW

[thecolouryes]

Flyboy: The small stuff gets me, too. I tend to use those little minor details to determine how much care/thought the directors, casting department, make-up and props, etc. invest in the realism of a show. Also, I completely don't understand why Jack has the coat. In all of the episodes that he was a companion in new series 1 of Doctor Who, he changed his outfit and -- get this! -- blended it. And then he comes back to life and suddenly has to look like he's from the 1940s?? I thought Torchwood would have offered some explanation by now for why he would keep that look past the '40s when he was happy to blend in with the outfits of the late 19th Century (I'm remembering a flashback in one of the first two seasons of Torchwood, don't remember which episode, but when Jack was explaining about the founding of Torchwood), but it just looks like their costume department is lazy now. *shrug* At least the plotlines aren't meaningless.

[Spimman]

The real question is...if Jack is\becomes The Face of Bo...does he still own the coat?

[thecolouryes]

The real question is...if Jack is\becomes The Face of Bo...does he still own the coat?

He's made it into some sort of special covering for that silly tank getup. Of course.

[Cairistiona]

Uh, a bit slow, but at least some explanations. And now I'm curious again who's behind it all and why. And the coat, of course

[Darren]

Just ended on BBC in the U.K. I appreciated the backstory and the fact that Jack has a relationship with the person who seems to be pulling the strings behind the Miracle (or is at least close to them). It's not just going to be a no-name who steps out from behind the curtain. And Angelo has a legitimate beef with Jack, even if from Jack's perspective the guy was a Judas.

The writing wasn't bad, if a bit slashfic-happy. I did have to avert my delicate eyes at one point (presumably the U.S. edit was wang-free?). I did appreciate the later car dialogue -- Gwen and Jack finally being honest about their relationship. It's kinda twisted and disfunctional, at the end of the day. Either the characters have no clue what it means to love someone (i.e. self-sacrificially, putting their needs before your own), or the writers don't. I'll assume they're just writing the characters as authentic, flawed human beings.

[DigiFluid]

I haven't seen the UK version, but I'm pretty sure I saw some sausage in the Starz version.

Can't say I have any desire to go back and double-check though

[Matt G]

1. Fair point about the coat in 1927. Bear in mind Jack went through WWII at least twice before he first joined Torchwood so he would certainly have had it. Possibly still lazy writing but it's plausible that there was a 1920 coat that looked similar enough to it that he thought he could give his favourite coat an early airing.

2. Angelo...I'm going for him becoming one of the first beneficiaries of immortality.

3. Gwen...interesting exchange but Torchwood was always dysfunctional so meh.

4. Generally liked the 1920s stuff...the reference to "family" foreshadowed something ugly happening given that "families" were referenced before.

Let's see what happens now...

[Naonak]

The story of the scorned lover in the 20s should have been told right near the beginning of the season, or else gradually in bits throughout each episode up till now. The way it's been handled now, I feel like I've been jerked around for six episodes guessing at something that couldn't possibly have been known till episode 7. Lame. Extremely lame.

Totally agree, it should have been spread through the season. Could have helped with the issue of a couple of episodes being notably Jack-light, too.


Not really happy with how easily Gwen just decided to hand Jack over. "If there was another way out I'd have thought of it!", then Rex and Esther are just like "Can we track them?" "Yes." Come on Gwen, sort it out.

Loved the Trickster's Brigade reference far more than is probably reasonable , but Pre-Utopia Jack using the "fixed point in time" line bugged the hell out of me.