Free to Be You and Me (503)

[iolanda]

Dean: "Isn't that like trying to catch a hurricane with a butterfly net?"
Cas: "No. It's harder."

Especially in this context it was just too easy. I don't know, maybe there is something missing...

[starg8fans]

Especially in this context it was just too easy. I don't know, maybe there is something missing...

You're right, the whole encounter was a bit anti-climatic after the way they described the danger before...

Something just crossed my mind about the discussion whether God is dead or not. I think he's still around, an Raphael is lying. True, it may have been Lucifer who resurrected Cas because he thought he could use him, but whoever saved Cas also put Dean and Sam on that plane. And that certainly wasn't Lucifer, he wanted Sam right there where he could take him as his vessel.

[kennythewraith]

i loved this and strangely the best part or me was cas and dean at the um...whore house....lol cas's face while he was waiting was awesome.but back to more serious things....the end really was pretty cool....i wonder if sam deos eventually become the vessel...towars the end of the season perhaps?and then dean lets michael take him over?

[flameling]

Good episode. There were so many great quotes in here, it isn't even funny. There's the ones in the brothels, the ones while trying to capture Raphael. It was very well written. I really hope we don't see Michael vs Lucifer (in Sam's body). I want to see God vs Lucifer, ending with Lucifer blowing up.

[P-90_177]

There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

[flameling]

There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

It's more then that. Michael can take Lucifer out AND lead heaven's armies. But he needs a vessel before he can act. I do believe that a common belief is that Michael leads God's armies and there forth it might be good for encouragement if Michael lead the charge. It was also stated the Michael is much powerful then Raphael, who's very appearance blacked out the eastern sea board. That's alot of power, just imagine what Michael can do. But I don't see why he can't do what Lucifer did and find a temporary vessel. and I specifically remember speculating that Lucifer had Nick's family killed. To me this is even more likely now because he referred to Nick as "plan B".

[starg8fans]

There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

Good question. There are two theories I came up with. Lucifer was described as 'the light bringer' and 'the most beautiful angel'. But angels have no shape, right? They appear as pure energy. And since Lucifer was the most beautiful he probably burned the brightest - hence his name - meaning that he was the most powerful as well.

Or Lucifer has had millennia in his entrapment to build his strength while the angels were using theirs to fight and keep order in the universe.

I think it is also safe to assume that Lucifer would not be alone in this battle, but that he has a whole 'hellish host' at his disposal he could summon.

It's more then that. Michael can take Lucifer out AND lead heaven's armies. But he needs a vessel before he can act. I do believe that a common belief is that Michael leads God's armies and there forth it might be good for encouragement if Michael lead the charge. It was also stated the Michael is much powerful then Raphael, who's very appearance blacked out the eastern sea board. That's alot of power, just imagine what Michael can do. But I don't see why he can't do what Lucifer did and find a temporary vessel. and I specifically remember speculating that Lucifer had Nick's family killed. To me this is even more likely now because he referred to Nick as "plan B".

Good thinking, it's not just Michael's powers but his position as the 'general' of all the heavenly forces that would change the battle in their favor.

What I don't get is why angels can only walk the earth in 'meatsuits', who slug out their battles rather than using their heavenly powers. Would their energy dissipate in our atmosphere? But I'm willing to let this go, since I enjoy the personifications a lot more than I would fx generated battles of lighting and smoke...

[LoneStar1836]

What I don't get is why angels can only walk the earth in 'meatsuits', who slug out their battles rather than using their heavenly powers. Would their energy dissipate in our atmosphere? But I'm willing to let this go, since I enjoy the personifications a lot more than I would fx generated battles of lighting and smoke...

Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

But yeah, you'd think as powerful as they are, they could do whatever, but then it would make for a boring show, imo. They have to have someway to put limits on the use of beings with unimaginable powers. And requiring a body does that. Though it's not that much of a limitation since they can resurrect their vessel over and over at will making killing a vessel useless and not an option...otherwise Cas and Dean could have just done away with Rafael's when they had the chance.

[Betelgeuze]

Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.

Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

Maybe god made it so that the angels have to use a vessel when they are on Earth, because he didn't want the angels burning out the eyes of their younger siblings.

Good question. There are two theories I came up with. Lucifer was described as 'the light bringer' and 'the most beautiful angel'. But angels have no shape, right? They appear as pure energy. And since Lucifer was the most beautiful he probably burned the brightest - hence his name - meaning that he was the most powerful as well.

If i remember correctly the Bible says that the devil is the wisest, most powerful and most beautiful of the angels. He was so powerful that he thought that he should not have to serve god, but instead should be the ruler of heaven. Some of the other angels agreed and they all got kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure but the reason for Lucifer's fall (Lucifer refused to bow down to Adam) given Supernatural is actually from the Quor'an not the Bible.

[kennythewraith]

Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.

ill tell you wat....im beginning to believe that we are going to see a sam vs dean battle to end the season...only sam will be host to lucifer and dean the host to michael.because if sam does agree,right now ill go with hes tricked to say yes,to be lucifers vessel,then dean would concent to michale using him as a vessel.

[starg8fans]

Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

But yeah, you'd think as powerful as they are, they could do whatever, but then it would make for a boring show, imo. They have to have someway to put limits on the use of begins with unimaginable powers. And requiring a body does that. Though it's not that much of a limitation since they can resurrect their vessel over and over at will making killing a vessel useless and not an option...otherwise Cas and Dean could have just done away with Rafael's when they had the chance.

Good point about 'protocol'. Guess there are certain ground rules, even for angels.

I don't think they can resurrect their vessels at will, though. Anna said she had to 'call in some favors' to get her meat suit back, and in Cas' case it was made quite clear that a very high power brought him back in this form - to the surprise of Cas himself.

Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.

Hadn't thought about it this way yet, but you've convinced me.

Maybe god made it so that the angels have to use a vessel when they are on Earth, because he didn't want the angels burning out the eyes of their younger siblings.

If i remember correctly the Bible says that the devil is the wisest, most powerful and most beautiful of the angels. He was so powerful that he thought that he should not have to serve god, but instead should be the ruler of heaven. Some of the other angels agreed and they all got kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure but the reason for Lucifer's fall (Lucifer refused to bow down to Adam) given Supernatural is actually from the Quor'an not the Bible.

That's interesting. I don't know the bible that well, so I had just assumed this story was the one - when there are different versions across the different religions. Amazing what you learn through this show!

[flameling]

After seeing what Raphael did to his vessel, imagine what Lucifer would do to Nick if he went for Sam. I feel sorry for him now.

[LoneStar1836]

Good point about 'protocol'. Guess there are certain ground rules, even for angels.

I don't think they can resurrect their vessels at will, though. Anna said she had to 'call in some favors' to get her meat suit back, and in Cas' case it was made quite clear that a very high power brought him back in this form - to the surprise of Cas himself.

Anna and Cas are lower angels. Maybe they don't have that kind of power. Course Cas saved Dean from Hell and brought him back to life...unless he just battled his way through the Pit to save Dean's soul and someone else did the bringing back to life thing Maybe if you get splatted into a million pieces and the only thing left is a tooth, then you can't bring your vessel back without some higher up help. lol.

I was going off of what Lucifer told Sam...that if Sam killed himself, he would just bring him back. And didn't Zach say the same thing to Dean?

[Arative]

ill tell you wat....im beginning to believe that we are going to see a sam vs dean battle to end the season...only sam will be host to lucifer and dean the host to michael.because if sam does agree,right now ill go with hes tricked to say yes,to be lucifers vessel,then dean would concent to michale using him as a vessel.

I'm not so sure that there will be a fight between Dean and Sam as Michael and Lucifer. All things are pointing that way, which leads me to think that the writers won't take that direction.

I mean I expected, I think along with a lot of people, that Dean would get out of his deal with the demon at the end of season 3, except the writers let the deal go and Dean actually died.

I guess I'm not expecting the writers to go in the direction everyone expects them to go in.

[Crichiel]

I'm not so sure that there will be a fight between Dean and Sam as Michael and Lucifer. All things are pointing that way, which leads me to think that the writers won't take that direction.

I mean I expected, I think along with a lot of people, that Dean would get out of his deal with the demon at the end of season 3, except the writers let the deal go and Dean actually died.

I guess I'm not expecting the writers to go in the direction everyone expects them to go in.

Yeah, I am sure there will be lots of things we didn't see coming, Kripke excels at that. Even though I am still not happy with the development (just can't get over how it dimishes Dean's uniqueness in being a vessel. Sam can now say, "Yeah yeah, you're a vessel. So am I...but to LUCIFER!! That's worse than YOU!"), I am curious to see who gives consent, and when, and for what reason.

If being Lucifer's vessel gives Sam a chance at redemption, as some of you are guessing, then wouldn't that mean he can't EVER give consent? If he gives in to Lucifer, even for the right reasons, that would mimic what he did by drinking demon blood 'for the bigger picture' and would mean that he didn't learn his lesson and WOULDN'T be redeeming himself, right? ...my head hurts.

Here's a sort of off-topic question popped into my head while I was re-watching. Is Jensen a smoker? (I hope not ) I swear his voice is getting lower and more gravelly with each episode!! Seriously, pop in a DVD from the first season and listen to him, then watch these last few episodes again! What's up with that?!