Excellent points Digi! And I quite knew some of that and thought quite alot about it, I just forgotten *facepalm*! My favorite moment in Episode III is when he declares or reorders the Republic as the "First Galactic Empire", the music made my heart explode.
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It was an awesome moment, regardless of which side of the fence you're onOriginally posted by Replicator Todd View Post
I think there's also Empire-validating stuff in the original trilogy as well. It's not as compelling as the prequel trilogy's evidence, but put together they make a fairly strong case."A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After LifeComment
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Originally posted by Col.Foley View PostCan I kill you poor innocent Ewok please
The characters were Stormtroopers who really thought the Empire was the best thing in the galaxy.Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
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i can't keep track of when Clone Wars is on anymore. It was on for a few weeks, then off, then on, and then off...and i haven't seen it in maybe 2 weeks?
wtf is going on? when does it air? i don't even remember what ep i saw last?Comment
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It was on every Friday until (Yank) Thanksgiving, off for a week, back for 2, and now off for Xmas break.Originally posted by Morbo View Post"A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After LifeComment
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*shakes fistComment
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Hah, I know
TV show Xmas breaks bug me. Seriously, isn't that when everyone is home and nobody has to work or be in school?"A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After LifeComment
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So? He just used the situation to his benefit, he pointed out the very real flaws in the process so that he could rise to power and take over.Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
True.
Again true, but that is why the people do have the ability to vote them in and out of office. If they wanted to, then those leglislators fail, and now ones are elected to take their place. Palpatine was also elected...to the best of my knowlege...by those very same greedy and corrupt Senators.
So let me get this straight: You are in favor of the Republic having a Military, as they should, but you are against them using it when their is a clear and present danger to their soverignty, way of life, and their populace?Episode II:
We learn this time around that, in addition to being wholly uninterested in rendering aid to its constituents, they don't even maintain a standing army. What kind of a governmental body doesn't even maintain a military?! It required the manipulation of rogue elements to even prepare them for the possibility of war, vis a vis the raising of a clone army.
But hang on--let's look at the Separatists for a moment. They're (originally) operating under a government which mismanages taxing, is an unwieldy bureaucracy incapable of any kind of actionable planning, and is utterly incapable of defending itself. It's no wonder that these people want to leave.
But what happens when they do? The Republic attacks them on their own territory! How is that even remotely forgivable? We've always been led to believe that the Republic is (if you'll excuse the phrasing) a coalition of the willing. And then, at the climax of Episode II, we find out that it's really like the mob: you don't get to quit, and if you try, we're gonna kill ya.
And attacking them on their own territory is a good thing, nay a great thing. I would much rather be fighting someone on their territory and in their lands far away from the Central Planets, their main population centers, and their government.
Because, the CIS, led by Count Dooku was building an army with the express purpose of launching an attack on the Republic, and causing untold carnage and destruction, and loss of life. Their was plenty of evidence to support this at the time that the Grand Army of the Republic was created. Furthurmore, Count Dooku was a terrorist. He was responsible, (it was at least believed) for funding and launching a terrorist attack on a Republic Senator, and who knows precisely what else. An act of war by any definition.
So the Republic had the right, as a premptive strike to prevent massive casualties, or as a retailiation for the most vile kinds of attacks, to launch an invasion of the CIS. Who was building an army which would have probably attacked the Republic, and who was in the employ of a Lord of the Sith, who was a terrorist. Hardly the Mob, just a bunch of sentient species reacting to what they percieved as a vile threat.
If the shoe fitsClone War Era:
Without going into a lot of detail (honestly, because I can't remember the exact details of most of the CW episodes), we learn that the Republic is continuing an aggressive war by repeatedly invading Separatist territory. Not only that, but they (both the clone soldiers and their Jedi generals) frequently regard and treat Separatists as scum.
In the most recent CW episodes, we even see the Republic forces forcibly destroying the local government (the queen) on Geonosis and imposing Republic law. Obviously, planetary sovereignty means nothing to the Republic.
Let's also consider the Jedi for a moment. As we learned in Episode I, force-sensitives are a group of people who have their abilities because they're born to it. Effectively, they're a group of hereditary nobility. Moreover, in the Clone Wars, they become the military arm of the Senate. So not only are they an exclusive caste of society that you can only be born into, they're also maintaining their superior societal status by leading the clone armies to protect the status quo.
And that queen was waging a war of aggression against the Jedi, and was going to start infesting Jedi, clones, and others in order to continue that war. However, I do not know how much 'Republic Law' favors planetary soverignty, you could be especially right, there have been instances where the Republic law has shown a tyranical support for certain governments over the others. That was not the case on Genosis.
Wouldn't you in that situation? Though you do raise an interesting point, what else were the Republic supposed to do. The Jedi were in this case, as they were in many others, the only ones equiped to deal with the threat. Which was the Sepratists waging a war against the Republic, for whatever their reasons.
Also, you are right that they are a hereditary nobility...except in this case they really are. Their is no imagined line of good blood, they really do, or at least different. This is hardly a justification, and Luke fixed that with the NJO.
No, you are right that no matter how powerful a Sith is he cannot manipulate every other vote. Something else can though, something that many real world tyrants have been using for centruries.Episode III:
Chancellor Palpatine is an elected official. Elected. I don't care how powerful or manipulative a Sith he is, he does not have the capability to manage every vote from the thousands and thousands of representatives in the Senate (and since I'm talking GL-canon here, I'm also ignoring that Palpatine-embodied-the-entire-Empire nonsense from certain EU books).
He was re-elected by those same Senators several times, and legally extended his own terms. And when the Jedi found out that he's a Protestant to their Catholic, they tried to kill him. The entire Jedi Council--Obi-Wan included--conspired in this treason. Their entire organization are taught from very early childhood, that to embrace any path other than their own is wrong and must be opposed with force. This, paired with their own self-interest in maintaining their noble status, made them an extremely dangerous element of society. What gives them the right to remove persons from political office, just because they don't approve of said politician's beliefs?
And shortly thereafter, the representatives of the Senate voted in favour of re-organizing the Republic into an Empire with Palpatine as their leader. Padme may have been mourning the change, but she very succinctly made the point: "with thunderous applause."
Fear.
That is what manipulated enough of the Senators along to continue the war. Obviously there was a number of senators who were uneasy about the war and the amount of power that Palpetine was accumulating, but in a Republic...and in this Republic...that was not clearly enough for the rest of them to bargan away their freedoms, and the freedoms of everyone else in the Galaxy for a measure of Security.
Are we sure its legal though? I remember Obi Wan saying something about how he has been able to stay in office long after his term had expired, because of emergency powers, that could have violated a law...or constituition...and thus who ever voted him into office were breaking the law and should have been at the least expelled from the Senate.
Your anology is flawed, it would be more like along the lines...since you use real world analogies...of the Jew versus the Islamo Fascist. You are right on the face of it. But the Sith...and Palpetine...are an evil. He is directly responsible for festering and causing a war that would go on to butcher untold numbers of casualties, do untold number of damage to infrastructure, and create an environment of terror in which he used to declare himself Emperor. He was a war criminal. Nothing more, nothing less, he needed to be deal with and the Jedi did so.
The wrong way.
They should have trusted the people, and Yoda...succinctly...added that 'to a dark place this will take us' and he was right. The Jedi though felt they had no other choice. This man who had so clearly manipulated the Senate, created a war, gained ultimate power without actually being an emperor, and he was much beloved in political circles. At least enough to keep him in office. This whole thing was a manipulation on his part to get into office, to get power, and then to maintain it. And it was done brilliantly. He set the Jedi up for a catch 22, damned if they do, damned if they don't.
If the Jedi went the right way and went to the people with their evidence and demanded his removal there was no gurantee that the people and Senate and courts would have gone with it. And then Palpetine would have been able to launch Order 66 anyways, or expel the Jedi order...all in the name of the Republic. Or he might hace initiated Order 66 if the Jedi convinced the people of what he was, and killed the Jedi, and then he would have seized power. Or the Jedi could have arrested him...being the FBI of the Republic, and bought him before the Senate, which is what they tried to do. They failed, and were branded an enemy of the people. Maybe that was a good thing, because you are right that this government was falling apart.
So as long as someone 'votes' for a dictarship its alright then?
But in conclusion: Palpetine created a plot perfectly executed in almost every way to get maintain and seize power. He used his terrorist Sith allies and the CIS to start a war distracting the people, and the Jedi. Creating an element of fear where he could gain further power and declare himself emperor. He got this power by exploting a dying and corrupted governmental system. But in the end the Republic could have gotten those bums out of office, and started over again. Nothing the Republic did 'validated' the creation of a much worse government. A government led by a genocidal madman, criminal, terrorist, and manipulator in chief. The Republic needed to start over, to get thoes corrupt politicians out of office and start over. It did not have that opprotunity.
They are an evil genocidal Empire, this is what they do.Originally posted by AtlantisRules!!! View Post
The characters were Stormtroopers who really thought the Empire was the best thing in the galaxy.Comment
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The Separatists were definitely terrorists, but I believe their cause was just, The Republic definitely had become extremely corrupt (both sides had a Sith Lord at the helm!). I think the Republic lost its ways as soon as they entered The Clone Wars.Comment
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Originally posted by Replicator Todd View Post
But that just proves the point. The Republic was headed by someone who was evil incarnate. He accelerated and used to his advantage the evils that were already inherent in the system.
And yes they had a just cause, but no just cause can be supported by Terrorism. Which is the second vilest crime that one organization can do to another. Basically it deligitimized...and thus legitimized the Republics...their cause that they were fighting for, however noble it was.Comment
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There was no just about them! Look at its leadership. Gunray, Greedy and corrupt. Wat Tambor, greedy and corrupt. San Hill, greedy and corrupt. Poggle the Lesser, Tikkes, Shu Mai, Psssel Argente, all greedy and corruptOriginally posted by Replicator Todd View Post
And if THey had won, then the Emperor still would have gotten on his throne and made his Empire.Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
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The old republic was an old fat man who ate himself to death. It was falling apart at the seems and the Sith new it. So they merely got elements of this dieing republic to try to carve out a corrupt empire of their own.
Then at the best moment the sith would take over and rule for all eternity!
And the Emperor would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for them meddling rebels and their Jedi.Comment
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Good one Morbo!
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
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