is star trek dying / dead ?

[Annoyed]

Although it's non-canon, there are a couple of TOS novels, Dreadnought! and Battlestations! in which a young starfleet cadet become the focal point of a tale involving a renegade fleet admiral or something who was secretly developing dreadnought class starships, massive engines, armaments and reinforced & heavily shielded hulls, and one of the points made in those stories was that Starfleet was a peaceful organization whose primary mission was exploratory, and such ships were against the character of what Starfleet was.

[P-90_177]

I don't know about that though. It seemed to me that despite these conflicts they kept devoting the vast majority of their shipbuilding resources toward explorer-type vessels. Armed ones for sure but built primarily for exploration nonetheless and not designed to take the kind of punishment you see in wartime situations. In the Dominion's case I don't think they were all that much more advanced in technology (at least once the Feds adapted their shield tech to the phased polaron beans they were using). What made the Dominion such a diffucult enemy for even the Klingons to fight was the fact that the Dominion could pretty much "grow" new footsoldiers rapidly (i.e., the Jem'Hadar). And I believe they had the capacity to rapidly build new warships as well. So yes the Domion had a few "advantages" but the Federation I maintain still took heavy losses because most of their fleet was old 23rd and early 24th century explorer-type vessels. So basically they were primarily explorer ships with armament perhaps sufficient for chasing off pirates and whose hulls weren't designed for the stresses of protracted wartime situations going up against enemy warships built solely for the purpose of engaging in protracted wartime situations. About the only thing remotely close to warships the Federation had were the Galaxy-class and Defiant-class vessels. the Klingons took heavy losses from the Dominion at first again probably because of the numbers situation for one thing (The Dominion again having the capacity to field large numerical advantages in battle) but also because I would bet that the Klingons were stretched thin trying to compensate for their Federation allies' lack of purpose-built warships.

I'm not so sure about that. The Excelsior, Miranda and Ambassador classes never struck me as being as heavily devoted to exloration as the Galaxy class was. They were very rugged and their designs were very utilitarian, and they were also very modular. After all we saw the Excelsior class Lakota get an upgrade advanced enough to take on the Defiant in DS9. It's more than likely that the three 'backbone' classes as I tend to refer to them lasted so long because they were consistently upgraded. Meanwhile if you think about the exploratory like vessels we see from that era there's only really the Galaxy Class and Oberth. Of the other vessels we know of (the kitbashed ones from the Wolf 359 debris) they all seem to carry similar design cues from the above ships (kinda natural being kitbashes ), so while some do look a little more inclined towards the exploration side of things like the Niagara (basically an Ambassador class with three nacelles) others again look more like Frigates with teeth (The New Orleans with it's Galaxy Class aesthetic but with torpedo pods on the top) and then some are simple patrol craft (like the single nacelled Freedom class). They'd naturally all serve different roles within the fleet just as we have in modern Navies today.

We also know that the other races in the Alpha Quadrant were just as stagnant if not more so than the Federation too. The Romulans did have their Romulan Warbirds which were as powerful as a Galaxy class, but it's always implied they're relatively knew. The Klingons meanwhile were still running around in their 23rd Century B'Rels, K'Vorts and K'Tingas, with only the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var classes arriving around the time the Federation were also introducing their latest designs.
It's noted in the TNG episode "Wounded" that the Galaxy Class has a huge advantage over a Galor Class Cardassian Warship. We find out in the same episode that a Nebula class (and not even the one with the weapon's pod, but the sensor dome variant) also has enough fire power to take out a Cardassian warship which was presumably also a Galor class. With that in mind it's reasonable to assume that before the Nebula and Galaxy classes were in service the Ambassador and Excelsior classes were still on par if not slightly ahead of their Cardassian counterparts.

It always struck me that the reason why the Federation ship design appears kind of stagnant is that it was very deliberate on the part of the Federation. Their goal at that point was to remain technologically dominant over their neighbours but not so much so that it provokes the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians into drastic action because they see them as a threat. For a century they walked that tightrope well because they had no reason to believe for that time being that they'd come across anyone more powerful. After all, the Federation wasn't really expanding that far by TNG's era. They couldn't since they had other Empires on all sides of it. They had no reason to believe that enormous powers like the Borg or Dominion would be a threat to them. And to be fair, even when they realised the level of danger they posed, they were able to build this vast fleet of state of the art late 24th Century warships in roughly 5 or 6 years (from Wolf 359 to the Battle of 001). That is insanely fast. Which leads me to conclude that Starfleet must always keep designs like this in their back pocket, keeping them updated just in case, but only makes use of them when they are really needed. Because when you poke Starfleet with a stick, they may poke you back with a stick, but also make sure they're ready to punch you in the face just in case too.

[Gatefan1976]

Without quoting either P-90 or MG, let's not forget that the main goal of Starfleet is not to serve as a military force as we see them today, but to serve an exploratory force that is capable of defending itself if need be.

[P-90_177]

Without quoting either P-90 or MG, let's not forget that the main goal of Starfleet is not to serve as a military force as we see them today, but to serve an exploratory force that is capable of defending itself if need be.

Oh I agree. In my opinion part of the reason why we often get so many debates over whether Starfleet is a millitary or not is simply because we don't have an organisation like it in today's world. They seek peaceful exploration and diplomacy first, but Starfleet officers are still trained in military roles and tactics for when they are required. But with that in mind I think Starfleet usually thinks about military applications as a key component in most Starship designs. It's not their sole purpose (except for the Defiant where they outright admitted it was) but it is still a key thinking point. That's why Starfleet ships still so easily fit into modern Naval classifications of Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships etc. But they all have duel roles as explorers and survey ships and what not.

In fact I've come to realise that the design lineage we see now that Discovery has arrived makes far more sense if you split ships up into these roles instead of how we've traditionally looked at it as being the Enterprise of the day being the largest ship of its day.

First you have the NX class, a compact and robust ship which is designed to go to the outer reaches of Space. A century later you have the Constitution class which is again quite small and compact (compared with the ships we see in Discovery and the later Excelsior class) and designated as a Cruiser, designed to fight but also designed for the 5 year missions in deep space. A Century after that though we have the Intrepid class; another small, fast and compact Cruiser which can hang in a fight while remaining unassisted in deep space for long periods of time. The Intrepid and Constitution classes are even similar sizes.

Meanwhile we have heavily armed science battleships. Designed to house as many scientific experiments that you can fit in one ship while it explores and patrols the inner reaches of known space while also designed to go onto the front lines in a war when necessary. That starts with the Crossfield class (Discovery), then a Century later the Galaxy class, then shortly after that the Sovereign and then in the far flung future presumably whatever Class the Enterprise J is.

Then intermingled in all that you have survey ships like the Shenzhou which also serve as destroyers which are later supplanted by the Miranda as ship classes shrank in size then on to the Sabre and class or such in the 24th Century...

It's an imperfect list so far but I could go into mountains of detail over each ship class in the show and how form clearly follows function in almost every case and how one class is frequently an successor to a later one.

[Gatefan1976]

OK, now I have to quote you

Oh I agree. In my opinion part of the reason why we often get so many debates over whether Starfleet is a millitary or not is simply because we don't have an organisation like it in today's world.

Sure, but we don't even need to have that debate, star fleet is NOT a military organization, it never has been. It has -trappings- of the military, it can be used as a military sure, but it is not the military.
It's a multi-functional exploratory force.

They seek peaceful exploration and diplomacy first, but Starfleet officers are still trained in military roles and tactics for when they are required. But with that in mind I think Starfleet usually thinks about military applications as a key component in most Starship designs.

Yes, they are trained in it, but I think what we see "on screen" pushes that aspect beyond what it is in "reality". I doubt most SF captains actually are ever involved in a firefight, no matter how capable they may be if needed.
I just don't see military applications as a prime (or key) design element, and I'll get back to that later.

It's not their sole purpose (except for the Defiant where they outright admitted it was) but it is still a key thinking point. That's why Starfleet ships still so easily fit into modern Naval classifications of Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships etc. But they all have duel roles as explorers and survey ships and what not.

The Defiant class of ships was the first roll out from the Borg inspired SDI, and it was the first pure warship that SF had developed in probably 200 years. Yes, we can class them in modern naval terms, but their role is still primarily exploration, even if they can act as a cruiser.
Starfleet is an explorer who carries a gun, not a soldier tasked to exploration, if you get my drift.

In fact I've come to realise that the design lineage we see now that Discovery has arrived makes far more sense if you split ships up into these roles instead of how we've traditionally looked at it as being the Enterprise of the day being the largest ship of its day.

I never saw it that way, so, can't comment

First you have the NX class, a compact and robust ship which is designed to go to the outer reaches of Space. A century later you have the Constitution class which is again quite small and compact (compared with the ships we see in Discovery and the later Excelsior class) and designated as a Cruiser, designed to fight but also designed for the 5 year missions in deep space. A Century after that though we have the Intrepid class; another small, fast and compact Cruiser which can hang in a fight while remaining unassisted in deep space for long periods of time. The Intrepid and Constitution classes are even similar sizes.

IIRC the Intrepid class was a deep space explorer that was modified, or just happened to be good at, exploring the Badlands.

Meanwhile we have heavily armed science battleships. Designed to house as many scientific experiments that you can fit in one ship while it explores and patrols the inner reaches of known space while also designed to go onto the front lines in a war when necessary. That starts with the Crossfield class (Discovery), then a Century later the Galaxy class, then shortly after that the Sovereign and then in the far flung future presumably whatever Class the Enterprise J is.

Being heavily armed, or armoured does not make the Galaxy class anything more than an explorer class of vessel.
Again, it happens too have good shields and phasers because SF can put them on it, rather than being a platform for good shields and phasers.
The Sovereign class however, grew out of the Borg SDI, so in that case, it -does- become a hybrid explorer/battleship.

Then intermingled in all that you have survey ships like the Shenzhou which also serve as destroyers which are later supplanted by the Miranda as ship classes shrank in size then on to the Sabre and class or such in the 24th Century...

It's an imperfect list so far but I could go into mountains of detail over each ship class in the show and how form clearly follows function in almost every case and how one class is frequently an successor to a later one.

I agree, I just don't agree with military application being the primary design philosophy. We see ships that "can" be destroyers, sure, but pre-sovereign, or going into Steamrunner, New Orleans, Akira "EU" type of stuff, I see no real "battleships"

[mad_gater]

I'm not so sure about that. The Excelsior, Miranda and Ambassador classes never struck me as being as heavily devoted to exloration as the Galaxy class was. They were very rugged and their designs were very utilitarian, and they were also very modular. After all we saw the Excelsior class Lakota get an upgrade advanced enough to take on the Defiant in DS9. It's more than likely that the three 'backbone' classes as I tend to refer to them lasted so long because they were consistently upgraded. Meanwhile if you think about the exploratory like vessels we see from that era there's only really the Galaxy Class and Oberth. Of the other vessels we know of (the kitbashed ones from the Wolf 359 debris) they all seem to carry similar design cues from the above ships (kinda natural being kitbashes ), so while some do look a little more inclined towards the exploration side of things like the Niagara (basically an Ambassador class with three nacelles) others again look more like Frigates with teeth (The New Orleans with it's Galaxy Class aesthetic but with torpedo pods on the top) and then some are simple patrol craft (like the single nacelled Freedom class). They'd naturally all serve different roles within the fleet just as we have in modern Navies today.

We also know that the other races in the Alpha Quadrant were just as stagnant if not more so than the Federation too. The Romulans did have their Romulan Warbirds which were as powerful as a Galaxy class, but it's always implied they're relatively knew. The Klingons meanwhile were still running around in their 23rd Century B'Rels, K'Vorts and K'Tingas, with only the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var classes arriving around the time the Federation were also introducing their latest designs.
It's noted in the TNG episode "Wounded" that the Galaxy Class has a huge advantage over a Galor Class Cardassian Warship. We find out in the same episode that a Nebula class (and not even the one with the weapon's pod, but the sensor dome variant) also has enough fire power to take out a Cardassian warship which was presumably also a Galor class. With that in mind it's reasonable to assume that before the Nebula and Galaxy classes were in service the Ambassador and Excelsior classes were still on par if not slightly ahead of their Cardassian counterparts.

It always struck me that the reason why the Federation ship design appears kind of stagnant is that it was very deliberate on the part of the Federation. Their goal at that point was to remain technologically dominant over their neighbours but not so much so that it provokes the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians into drastic action because they see them as a threat. For a century they walked that tightrope well because they had no reason to believe for that time being that they'd come across anyone more powerful. After all, the Federation wasn't really expanding that far by TNG's era. They couldn't since they had other Empires on all sides of it. They had no reason to believe that enormous powers like the Borg or Dominion would be a threat to them. And to be fair, even when they realised the level of danger they posed, they were able to build this vast fleet of state of the art late 24th Century warships in roughly 5 or 6 years (from Wolf 359 to the Battle of 001). That is insanely fast. Which leads me to conclude that Starfleet must always keep designs like this in their back pocket, keeping them updated just in case, but only makes use of them when they are really needed. Because when you poke Starfleet with a stick, they may poke you back with a stick, but also make sure they're ready to punch you in the face just in case too.

Maybe. But I think that after the Odyssey got totaled in their very first encounter with the Dominion they should've at the very least put ablative armor on every ship in the fleet, as we saw just how much punishment ablative armor was able to take after the Lakota popped the Defiant's shields in 2 hits. If I recall I think the Lakota was fielding Galaxy-class phaser power, which would've certainly required serious upgrades to the power relay systems since if you tried that trick with original Excelsior-class power-relays they probably would've blown out every power relay in the ship.

[mad_gater]

And I will admit that the Galaxy-class was good at humiliating Cardassian warships

reminds me of a comment someone put on the YT clip of those Galaxy-class wings going after the 2 Galor-class warships that Dukat was planning to use to close his "trap" on Sisko which was a potential off-screen conversation between Weyoun and Dukat...it went something like this:

*Weyoun and Dukat watch as those 2 Galor warships get totaled by the Galaxy-class starships*

Weyoun: You forgot that the Federation had Galaxy-class starships when you made that plan didn't you?

Dukat: My twin brother always said they could take out a Galor's shields in 2 shots but I never believed him

[Annoyed]

Being heavily armed, or armoured does not make the Galaxy class anything more than an explorer class of vessel.
Again, it happens too have good shields and phasers because SF can put them on it, rather than being a platform for good shields and phasers.

The Galaxy class ships also had families and children aboard, not something you would expect a ship intended for battle to carry.

[mad_gater]

The Galaxy class ships also had families and children aboard, not something you would expect a ship intended for battle to carry.

Some have speculated that the Galaxy-classes you saw engaging in large-scale space navy battles with the Dominion had some interior retrofits done and had off-loaded all civilians before being ready for wartime operations.

[Gatefan1976]

Some have speculated that the Galaxy-classes you saw engaging in large-scale space navy battles with the Dominion had some interior retrofits done and had off-loaded all civilians before being ready for wartime operations.

It's still a explorer class vessel though MG.
Unloading the civilians just makes sense if you are specifically going to war.

[mad_gater]

It's still a explorer class vessel though MG.
Unloading the civilians just makes sense if you are specifically going to war.

Wouldn't surprise me if, if not a full retrofit, that a lot of the civilian living space was re-purposed to serve as, say, barracks for MACO troops. Also wouldn't surprise me if they shut down things on the Galaxy-class not essential for combat operations like Stellar Cartography, the Arboretum, etc.

[Gatefan1976]

Wouldn't surprise me if, if not a full retrofit, that a lot of the civilian living space was re-purposed to serve as, say, barracks for MACO troops. Also wouldn't surprise me if they shut down things on the Galaxy-class not essential for combat operations like Stellar Cartography, the Arboretum, etc.

That's still not changing the -design role- of the vessel though.
The Defiant class -is- a ship of war, it has none of that stuff to strip out or repurpose.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it would make total sense to do what you are suggesting, (except Stellar cartography, they have brilliant sensor arrays, which is useful in info gathering on more than just map-making).
It's still a galaxy class, with galaxy class engines, shields and weaponry.

[P-90_177]

That's still not changing the -design role- of the vessel though.
The Defiant class -is- a ship of war, it has none of that stuff to strip out or repurpose.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it would make total sense to do what you are suggesting, (except Stellar cartography, they have brilliant sensor arrays, which is useful in info gathering on more than just map-making).
It's still a galaxy class, with galaxy class engines, shields and weaponry.

Well yes but that kind of proves the point given how powerful those weaponry and shields are.

A Galaxy class starship is an explorer vessel, designed for numerous scientific study with a variety of different specialists aboard. Some of those specialists are even civilians if you keep in mind they had Botanists like Keiko aboard and even families to allow Starfeet personnel to maintain a home life. During peace time it was designed for scientific and diplomatic duties. That much remains certain. What I'm saying is that Starfleet ships are designed for two purposes in mind. First it's to explore and then its to conduct warfare in the event of conflict, with the Galaxy class clearly running the role of a command Battleship.

(FYI I'm gonna open a separate thread to do with Starfleet ship design. This conversation is probably more appropriate in its own thread. )

[Gatefan1976]

Well yes but that kind of proves the point given how powerful those weaponry and shields are.

I don't see how.
The Defiant class runs a smaller profile and packs comparable firepower with greater speed and maneuverability than a galaxy class. Yes, it has less shielding, but it packs ablative armour to compensate.
It is a warship, and despite the Galaxy class having similar weaponry and shielding, it is NOT a warship -by design-.

A Galaxy class starship is an explorer vessel, designed for numerous scientific study with a variety of different specialists aboard. Some of those specialists are even civilians if you keep in mind they had Botanists like Keiko aboard and even families to allow Starfeet personnel to maintain a home life. During peace time it was designed for scientific and diplomatic duties. That much remains certain. What I'm saying is that Starfleet ships are designed for two purposes in mind. First it's to explore and then its to conduct warfare in the event of conflict, with the Galaxy class clearly running the role of a command Battleship.

Sure, it can perform that role, Admiral Nechayev certainly flew her flag from the Enterprise when she was around and needed a C&C ship. What I am -doubting- is this idea of duel design philosophy with federation ships. Ships -happen- to be able to perform dual roles, but the federation could easily, and indeed began to create a proper military arm to Starfleet. Think of cop cars. Nearly all of them are a standard design purchasable to the general market, but then they are reinforced, have their electrical systems hardened, brakes upgraded etc. MG's example of retrofitting Galaxy class to military purpose is this, and if you want the ship to perform that role, then you should do it.
The defiant is more akin to a tank, made reinforced and hardened by design, and certainly not a general market design
Just because the Galaxy class CAN perform a role does not mean that design philosophy -intended- such a role, it just happens to be -good- at such a role. Indeed, the Constitution class was meant to serve as deep space explorer, with minimal contact with SF and Star-bases, and to do that for a protracted period meant that it needed the "best on offer" at the time, same as the Galaxy, same as the Sovereign.

(FYI I'm gonna open a separate thread to do with Starfleet ship design. This conversation is probably more appropriate in its own thread. )

sure

[mad_gater]

That's still not changing the -design role- of the vessel though.
The Defiant class -is- a ship of war, it has none of that stuff to strip out or repurpose.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it would make total sense to do what you are suggesting, (except Stellar cartography, they have brilliant sensor arrays, which is useful in info gathering on more than just map-making).
It's still a galaxy class, with galaxy class engines, shields and weaponry.

Oh I didn't say it did change what the ship at its core is. I would say that given the multi-purpose nature of Federation vessels that the only combat retro-fitting that they should've done was put ablative armor on all their ships. And nullify the stifling Treaty of Algeron that left the Federation without the ability to effectively engage in stealth operations. The ablative armor would've extended the amount of punishment those ships could take. And that is a good point about stellar cartography. And I would argue that the holodeck has good combat applications too (namely the training of troops). And re-starting the Pegasus Project (I think that's what that covert project was called that attempted to put a phasing cloak on the Pegasus) and putting one of the Pegasus cloaks on ever ship in the fleet would've given them the ability to gather massive amounts of intelligence on Dominion activities. Yes the Dominion had the capacity to do anti-proton scans but i think the Feds and the Romulans had eventually modified the Romulan cloaking devices so that anti-proton scans wouldn't light up cloaked vessels like Christmas trees. And beides that...I don't think a simple anti-proton scan would nullify a cloaking device that can enable a ship to pass through solid matter like the phasing cloak on the Pegasus.