The UFP: would you want to live there?

[Starsaber]

Starfleet does appear to be a meritocracy, where you have to earn your right to be in a position, and I'm fine with that. But to live in the general population of a socialist system is not something I would wish for.

And while the society itself may have nearly unlimited resources, I rather doubt that individuals do. Someone's hand is on the throttle, and I don't think that someone should be the government, as it is in socialism.

Why would there need to be a hand on the throttle considering that for the most part it's a post-scarcity world?

[Annoyed]

Reply to both Gatefan1976 and Starsaber:

It is within the nature of some human beings that they want to control other people. Such people have been around since we climbed down out of the trees, if not longer. This desire may eventually be left behind thousands of years from now, but not in a scant few hundred years from now. Those people will obtain positions in any society which allow them to do that, regardless of the actual need for control.

[Gatefan1976]

Reply to both Gatefan1976 and Starsaber:

It is within the nature of some human beings that they want to control other people. Such people have been around since we climbed down out of the trees, if not longer. This desire may eventually be left behind thousands of years from now, but not in a scant few hundred years from now. Those people will obtain positions in any society which allow them to do that, regardless of the actual need for control.

Ok, you mean things like section 31?
As for having control in the way I -think- you mean, if you consider that desire to be "in power" bad, but universal, what difference would the political system they work within make?

[P-90_177]

Ok, you mean things like section 31?
As for having control in the way I -think- you mean, if you consider that desire to be "in power" bad, but universal, what difference would the political system they work within make?

Particularly since politics in many "Democratic" countries would certainly give the impression that it does not matter either way.

[DigiFluid]

Particularly since politics in many "Democratic" countries would certainly give the impression that it does not matter either way.

B-b-b-b-but COMMUNISM!

[mad_gater]

I think UFP starship designers were rather single-minded...at least until the DS9 era

they kept building starships geared mostly for exploration...and while some of these starships had some weaponry that was nothing to sneeze at....that didn't negate the fact that the primary purpose of those ships was exploration

The Galaxy-class, for example, while its weaponry was nothing to sneeze at, was still for all intents and purposes a mobile science lab...they even had families stationed on that class

they all had the same basic design too (again until DS9 when they finally realized that they needed innovative starship designs geared solely for combat) that being "flying saucer attached to warp nacelles"

but you think UFP ship builders would've realized the need for pure combat vessels after the first of the wars they got involved in (namely the Romulan War, though the UFP wasn't officially established yet...I think it was the Coalition at the time)

Exploration and scientific research is all well and good but having territory doesn't mean a thing if you're not prepared to ably defend it and show your enemies just who's boss

when the UFP's enemies got a load of UFP starships they probably laughed themselves silly at the "flying saucer attached to long thin cylinders" design

[Gatefan1976]

I think UFP starship designers were rather single-minded...at least until the DS9 era

they kept building starships geared mostly for exploration...and while some of these starships had some weaponry that was nothing to sneeze at....that didn't negate the fact that the primary purpose of those ships was exploration

Well, that is understandable given the fact that Starfleet, for all it's milliteristic overtones really was a exploratory corps.

The Galaxy-class, for example, while its weaponry was nothing to sneeze at, was still for all intents and purposes a mobile science lab...they even had families stationed on that class

Yup.

they all had the same basic design too (again until DS9 when they finally realized that they needed innovative starship designs geared solely for combat) that being "flying saucer attached to warp nacelles"

It wasn't the Dominion war that caused that, but first contact with the Borg and the events of Wolf 359 (Sisko even worked on the Defiant class in R&D before his assignment to DS9)

Again, Starfleet is not primarily tasked with defence and expansion, it merely fulfils the role when it must.

but you think UFP ship builders would've realized the need for pure combat vessels after the first of the wars they got involved in (namely the Romulan War, though the UFP wasn't officially established yet...I think it was the Coalition at the time)

The UFP did not -want- a standing army, in fact IIRC, Starfleet was initially forbidden by UFP charter to fulfil that role, and it was up to the member worlds themselves to provide any kind of local military force required.

Exploration and scientific research is all well and good but having territory doesn't mean a thing if you're not prepared to ably defend it and show your enemies just who's boss

I can think of no instance when Starfleet did not protect it's territory when invited to by a member world, or even a world that just requested aid.

when the UFP's enemies got a load of UFP starships they probably laughed themselves silly at the "flying saucer attached to long thin cylinders" design

None of the ships in Trek are particulary "sexy", except the Romulan ones.
Galor class flying prawn?

[P-90_177]

I think UFP starship designers were rather single-minded...at least until the DS9 era

they kept building starships geared mostly for exploration...and while some of these starships had some weaponry that was nothing to sneeze at....that didn't negate the fact that the primary purpose of those ships was exploration

The Galaxy-class, for example, while its weaponry was nothing to sneeze at, was still for all intents and purposes a mobile science lab...they even had families stationed on that class

they all had the same basic design too (again until DS9 when they finally realized that they needed innovative starship designs geared solely for combat) that being "flying saucer attached to warp nacelles"

but you think UFP ship builders would've realized the need for pure combat vessels after the first of the wars they got involved in (namely the Romulan War, though the UFP wasn't officially established yet...I think it was the Coalition at the time)

Exploration and scientific research is all well and good but having territory doesn't mean a thing if you're not prepared to ably defend it and show your enemies just who's boss

when the UFP's enemies got a load of UFP starships they probably laughed themselves silly at the "flying saucer attached to long thin cylinders" design

Actually Starfleet ships are consistently shown to be as powerful, if not superior to most enemies, except for the Borg, Breen and Dominion. The Romulans also prove to be a formidable adversary but only in the sense that their D'Deridex class Warbird is equal in firepower to a Galaxy class. In all four cases they were largely caught by surprise by superior technology. Even the Romulans were in seclusion and hadn't been seen for some decades right u until the point of the first season of TNG.

[Meaghan]

I think I'd LOVE to move to Earth, UFP time....but I'd love even more to move to DS9.

And, mad_gater, you don't think that Starfleet can't combine defense and exploration in one ship? Besides, they were at peace more often then they were at war, IIRC.

[mad_gater]

I think I'd LOVE to move to Earth, UFP time....but I'd love even more to move to DS9.

And, mad_gater, you don't think that Starfleet can't combine defense and exploration in one ship? Besides, they were at peace more often then they were at war, IIRC.

exploration vessels, even when being as well armed as they were for the UFP, don't have the flexibility to easily transition from exploration to having to fight a protracted war

from what I saw in the series once a UFP starship's deflector screen were down it wasn't long before said ship was destroyed..so while these exploratory vessels may have been well-defended for being an exploratory vessel....they weren't generally designed for taking copious amounts of punishment in a protracted starship battle as a specialized warship would be....warships also, without the burden of carrying science and exploration research equipment, could afford to cram more weaponry and lots of tactical equipment into a specialized warship than in an exploratory one

that's why I would class the Defiant as a specialized warship, since by that time they were finally getting the idea that they should perhaps build in some backup armor to their starships in the event of shield failure so that the ship could take loads of serious punishment even after the enemy brought down the shields...and you could see all the weaponry that they were able to cram into that little warship...it had some exploratory capability but I would wager not nearly as much as the ship classes that were geared primarily for exploration

If I moved to the UFP I'd probably want to pilot the Defiant...one tough little ship....it was even able to give as good as it got to a seriously upgraded USS Lakota (an Excelsior-class starship that i think they were able to somehow upgrade with Galaxy-class phaser arrays and shields)....

I gotta hand it to the UFP though......they do rather well for themselves in those starships....but I still think that it's better to have entire fleets of specialized warships at the ready for territory defense...don't get me wrong....I wouldn't want them to stop using exploratory research vessels...but they'd also have the knowledge that their territory was ably defended by ships that are nothing but shields, ablative armor, and weapons out the wazoo

but again credit where credit is due....those Galaxy-class starships were good at giving those Cardassian Galor-class destroyers a good pasting

[Gatefan1976]

exploration vessels, even when being as well armed as they were for the UFP, don't have the flexibility to easily transition from exploration to having to fight a protracted war

Take the people out, and upgrade the weapons systems.

from what I saw in the series once a UFP starship's deflector screen were down it wasn't long before said ship was destroyed..so while these exploratory vessels may have been well-defended for being an exploratory vessel....they weren't generally designed for taking copious amounts of punishment in a protracted starship battle as a specialized warship would be....warships also, without the burden of carrying science and exploration research equipment, could afford to cram more weaponry and lots of tactical equipment into a specialized warship than in an exploratory one

The weapons they are using are so high powered, they can obliterate asteroids. Even their hand held weapons can blow solid rock formations to pieces and atomize biological targets.
NO ship survives long without shields.

that's why I would class the Defiant as a specialized warship, since by that time they were finally getting the idea that they should perhaps build in some backup armor to their starships in the event of shield failure so that the ship could take loads of serious punishment even after the enemy brought down the shields...and you could see all the weaponry that they were able to cram into that little warship...it had some exploratory capability but I would wager not nearly as much as the ship classes that were geared primarily for exploration

Umm, it -is- a warship, as dictated by the Borg Defence Initiative.

If I moved to the UFP I'd probably want to pilot the Defiant...one tough little ship....it was even able to give as good as it got to a seriously upgraded USS Lakota (an Excelsior-class starship that i think they were able to somehow upgrade with Galaxy-class phaser arrays and shields)....

I don't think they would give someone with your mindset a defiant class ship.

I gotta hand it to the UFP though......they do rather well for themselves in those starships....but I still think that it's better to have entire fleets of specialized warships at the ready for territory defense...don't get me wrong....I wouldn't want them to stop using exploratory research vessels...but they'd also have the knowledge that their territory was ably defended by ships that are nothing but shields, ablative armor, and weapons out the wazoo

..............and this is why they would never give you a defiant class.

but again credit where credit is due....those Galaxy-class starships were good at giving those Cardassian Galor-class destroyers a good pasting

You mean top of the line Cardassian warships?
Or Romulan Warships (D'deridex)
Or Klingon Warships (Vor'cha)

Yeah, for explorer vessels, the Galaxy class do kick arse.

[mad_gater]

And why is that? Knowing just what it takes to fight and decisively win a war is a bad thing why? You think I'm some psycho that would use the Defiant to just shoot up anybody and everybody?

In a time of war you can't afford to fiddle around with your enemy. In a time of war, only specialized warships (like the Defiant-class) crammed choc full of every tactical advantage imaginable would have a prayer of surviving said protracted war relatively unscathed.

The female changeling said it herself at the end when she was considering fighting it out to the absolute bitter end instead of surrendering. She basically said that their victory would be so hollow that it would taste as bitter as defeat. A "pyrrhic victory" in other words. this basically highlights the vast difference between the UFP and the Dominion. The UFP was going up against a confederation of races whose whole life was built on constant or near-constant warfare. And even despite their alliance with the Klingons they would've lost had Garak not figured out an extremely under-handed way to make it appear as if the Dominion had abrogated its non-aggression pact with the Romulans.

Common sense dictates that to prepare for ultimately inevitable times of war against those who declare themselves your enemy, you'd want to build warfare equipment capable of withstanding the rigors of prolonged warfare. You saw this when the Defiant was forced to engage the Lakota. The Defiant's ablative armor was actually able to take more punishment than the shields it was designed with. So thus I reiterate that according to common sense, when doing battle against a foe whose entire history is built upon near-constant warfare, you'd want to have ships capable of taking large amounts of punishment...and capable of doling out large amounts of the same. And you'd also want them to be able to run at maximum power for long lengths of time.

In short, the only reason the UFP had any prayer of a victory at all...even a pyrrhic one...is because they were able to turn the Romulans and eventually the Cardassians against the Dominion. They started to build some specialized warships like the Defiant and were starting to retrofit some of their ships like the Excelsior and Miranda classes similarly to the Defiant. It was too little too late though. They weren't able to produce enough of the specialized warship classes fast enough to counter the fact that the vast majority of their exploratory vessels, while well-armed for explorers, had a nasty habit of not lasting too long in most large-scale naval combat engagements with the Dominion. If they'd been able to produce more of the warship classes quickly enough perhaps an allied victory would've been far more decisive. Ultimately the female changeling's desire to preserve the changeling race won out over her her desire to fight to the bitter end.

[tlw]

Concerning economics of the Federation. I know Trek novels are not considered canon, but in the novel Spock's World, Dr. McCoy uses a Federation/Starfleet credit chip. To pay for printouts of research he was doing at a Vulcan archive/library. In a possible money-less society of the future, things might work that way.

[Annoyed]

Concerning economics of the Federation. I know Trek novels are not considered canon, but in the novel Spock's World, Dr. McCoy uses a Federation/Starfleet credit chip. To pay for printouts of research he was doing at a Vulcan archive/library. In a possible money-less society of the future, things might work that way.

Call it a dollar, a credit or a donut, it still sounds like they have an exchange medium, or money.
might be cashless, but there is still money involved.

[GodAtum]

And these questions are why I wouldn't be moving to socialist/communist system.

The UFP is not communist at all ... people still own stuff. I believe in a communst society everything is owned by the state. On earth people still own land and property.

As an aside, does the UFP run an federation-wide Olympics? I've never seen it mentioned.