Nemesis: Did you think Picard would die? (~spoilers~)

[Snowman37]

When I saw the movie at the theater, I had read that Picard or Data might be killed off, but I didn't buy it. Surely they'll make another movie and bring everyone back, right? Anyway, when Picard beamed over to the Schimitar at the end, I thought they were building up to the death of Picard. When Data flew over through space, I had no idea which of the two would survive. It started to lean toward Data saving the day so Picard could live to see another. Then again, Shinzon could have killed Picard allowing Data to save the Enterprise. Both could have died! For me, this was the greatest tension in the film. It was probably going to be the last and ended up so. John Logan could have killed off anyone he wanted given it was the final film.

Did you feel the tension as much as I did?

[Pharaoh Atem]

going into the movie i read that Brent spiner would only do the movie if something happen to Data he knew he couldn't play the role anymore due to his age. plus he felt the character had gone full circle.

so when it came down to picard or data at the end i pretty much knew what was going to happen but i was still shocked

the android that wanted to be human did the most human thing at the end. sacrificed himself

[Snowman37]

I guess that took the tension out of whether Picard would make it back to the Enterprise. Yeah, Brent Spiner's age was beginning to show in the movie, but that didn't bother me. Can't an android's artificial skin age just like human skin? Everything ages and wears with time. For me, what was an issue was Data getting chubby. Arnold Schwarzenegger worked out for T3 to look as he did in T2. Couldn't Brent Spiner could have gone on a diet? He didn't need to be built, just slim down is all. That's no slam against the actor, it's just... when playing an android, it won't kill the actor to diet.

[maneth]

Well, Spiner wanted out so... He looked trim enough to me in ENT.

Data's death was a shock but I did understand the reasoning behind it. And it really made the film.

[Snowman37]

See, this is why we should avoid film spoilers. It ruins the cinematic experience.

[Giantevilhead]

the android that wanted to be human did the most human thing at the end. sacrificed himself

Except that's not human at all. He basically did what a bomb detonating robot does for us. It would have been far more human for Data to run and save himself rather than follow his programming and help others at the expense of his own life.

[Galileo_Galilee]

Spoilers don't really ruin the theater experience to me. Reading pure text is quite different than seeing the full visuals and the special effects.

And the music.

[LoneStar1836]

Except that's not human at all. He basically did what a bomb detonating robot does for us. It would have been far more human for Data to run and save himself rather than follow his programming and help others at the expense of his own life.

Then how do you account for the real life sacrifices of military personnel? I'm specifically thinking of those that sacrifice themselves to save others by covering grenades. I've skimmed through Medal of Honor recipients and those are not rare occurrences. Two examples just on the first two pages of listings here and here.


As to the OP, it was so long ago I don't remember. Though I know I hadn't read anything about the movie before seeing it. Don't think I ever thought Picard would die though. You just don't kill Picard. I originally rather hated this movie because Data was killed and he is my favorite TNG character, but over the years I actually came to appreciate his death since that was essentially the end of the series. I know there are books, but I don't read those.

[Giantevilhead]

Then how do you account for the real life sacrifices of military personnel? I'm specifically thinking of those that sacrifice themselves to save others by covering grenades. I've skimmed through Medal of Honor recipients and those are not rare occurrences. Two examples just on the first two pages of listings here and here.

Having to account for such behaviors in humans is precisely my point. Humans are genetically programmed to preserve themselves. People who sacrifice their own lives for the good of others, especially strangers, go against their instincts. That's what many people consider to be a defining quality of humanity, being able to go against one's own nature.

Data was specifically programmed to help others at the expense of his own well being. How does him following his programming make him more human?

[Galileo_Galilee]

You really can't program emotions like loyalty.

He was very loyal to Picard.

You might be able to program things like Asimov's five rules for robots, but things like loyalty are a whole other tomato.


But the thing about programming is any programming can be undone by those who know how or with superior technology.

[LoneStar1836]

Having to account for such behaviors in humans is precisely my point. Humans are genetically programmed to preserve themselves. People who sacrifice their own lives for the good of others, especially strangers, go against their instincts. That's what many people consider to be a defining quality of humanity, being able to go against one's own nature.

Data was specifically programmed to help others at the expense of his own well being. How does him following his programming make him more human?

Ah okay I understand what you mean now. Thanks. I thought you meant humans didn't have it in them to willingly sacrifice themselves.

Tough question. But I guess I see it as while Data is programed to do that, he also has the ability to make choices. So I think of it as him making the choice rather than just following some programing code stating that humans must be saved. Obviously that is very debatable.

[Giantevilhead]

Ah okay I understand what you mean now. Thanks. I thought you meant humans didn't have it in them to willingly sacrifice themselves.

Tough question. But I guess I see it as while Data is programed to do that, he also has the ability to make choices. So I think of it as him making the choice rather than just following some programing code stating that humans must be saved. Obviously that is very debatable.

But the problem is that it wasn't played that way. There was never any indication of Data doubting or even thinking about going against his own programming.

DS9 episodes like "To the Death" and "Rocks and Shoals" did it much better. The Jem'Hadar are portrayed as being able to overcome their programming. They're not the single minded killing machines they were designed to be. They can think for themselves and they can even overcome their programmed obedience to the Vorta. In the end, it actually makes you wonder if they stayed loyal to the Founders because the programming was too difficult to break or if it was actually their choice to remain loyal.

[LoneStar1836]

But the problem is that it wasn't played that way. There was never any indication of Data doubting or even thinking about going against his own programming.

Maybe not in the movie because it all happened so fast, but I can think of the ep in TNG, "The Quality of Life" with the exocomps. He disobeys orders even though Picard and Geordi are in danger. He is only willing to sacrifice himself but not the exocomps because he has a choice to do so. He was willing to let those two die to save what he thought was another life form.

DS9 episodes like "To the Death" and "Rocks and Shoals" did it much better. The Jem'Hadar are portrayed as being able to overcome their programming. They're not the single minded killing machines they were designed to be. They can think for themselves and they can even overcome their programmed obedience to the Vorta. In the end, it actually makes you wonder if they stayed loyal to the Founders because the programming was too difficult to break or if it was actually their choice to remain loyal.

It's been a really long time since I've seen DS9 but I'm in the process of a Trek rewatch and recently just finished TNG. So I look forward to those eps.

[Snowman37]

Data sacrificing himself to save Picard isn't a character defining moment. How many times in the series and even the movies did we see Data put himself directly in harm's way for the sake of the Enterprise crew? The only difference between those times and this time is that Data didn't survive.

Honestly, couldn't Data have flown a shuttle over to the Schimitar? Beam Picard out, beam a torpedo (or something) in; and fly away fast! The Schimitar goes boom, Data lives to see another day. I guess one could argue that there wasn't time, but... Data had time to fly across space and travel from the airlock to the bridge. Surely he'd have time to fly over in a shuttle?

[Giantevilhead]

That movie is full of plot holes. There are transporters on the shuttles. Also, it would have made much more sense to just beam Shinzon away as soon as the Scimitar's shields went down.