Best Deep Space Nine season

[DigiFluid]

I frakking LOVED 'The Ship' and 'Rapture'

[CaptainCharisma]

I voted season 6, Dominion War was on, tons of great episodes. Season 6 also had one of the best episodes of the series (maybe the best), it was certainly the best Sisko episode, and that of course is "In the Pale Moonlight".

I can't believe others thought the series went down in seasons 4 and 5. Notables episodes for me:

Season 4 - Way of the Warrior Parts 1 & 2, The Visitor, Hippocratic Oath, Starship Down, Homefront, Paradise Lost, Return to Grace, Shattered Mirror, To the Death, Broken Link

Season 5 - Apocalypse Rising, The Ship, The Assignment, The Ascent, Rapture, For the Uniform, In Purgatory's Shadow, By Inferno's Light, Soldiers of the Empire, Children of Time, Blaze of Glory, Empok Nor (excellent Garak episode, shows what a sociopath he could be, yes I know the mind altering drug was causing it, but still with what we about his past, it seems to fit), Call to Arms

[Descent]

Episodes that I didn't like. I didn't like Hard Time because it seems very convenient that they could erase certain memories in TNG without erasing everything, but they couldn't do it for this episode and for Sons of Mogh basically because the story hinged on it. I also thought it was a bit far fetched that O'Brien was going to commit suicide. The whole episode just seemed a bit too OTT.

Hmm, I don't see that as a reason to dismiss the entire episode though. Also, 20 years is a long time to be in prison, thinking that all hope is gone and that you will never see your loved ones again. It changes you, drills something into you that makes it very, very hard to adapt back into society (granted, O'Brien conveniently returned back to normal by the next episode, but still)

It was a very powerful episode: "When I had the chance to show that no matter what anyone did to me I was still an evolved, human being, I failed. I repaid kindness with blood."

Next to Whispers, it's one of the very best O'Brien episodes.

The Quickening almost always puts me to sleep. Sorry...

Heh, I just find it funny that you dislike the episodes I think were the best for certain characters. I thought this was one of the best Bashir episodes of the entire series. It works even better when you know what Bashir really is.

Like I said, there were exceptions, but the average episode quality, I felt, was down. I wasn't as impressed with The Visitor as everyone else was.

As a person who loved every bit of the Visitor and was moved at how it showed the powerful bond between father and son, I guess I'll never understand people who didn't love it.

Our Man Bashir was just fun, but it didn't do much for me beyond that.

Yep, that's why I liked it so much. Nice change of pace and I enjoyed Garak in it, as well.

Return to Grace, I felt, fell apart during Dukat's speech trying to convince Kira. You knew she wasn't going to do it, and it went on and on and on...

It's been awhile (2 or 3 years) since I've seen that one, but I know what you're talking about. I just remember it being much, much better than Indiscretion. That scene where the Klingons 'spare' Dukat was great.

Shattered Mirror killed mirror Jennifer, which ticked me off. Sword of Kahless was Ok, nothing stellar, but nothing bad either...

Well, people die all the time in the Mirror Universe episode. What did you want out of mirror Jennifer? SoK was good, not great to me. 'OK' is something that I would give to Rules of Engagement or For the Cause.

I felt Indiscretion was a bit ridiculous because you could see they were trying to push a Dukat/Kira thing, and it really didn't fit her character at all. That's like pairing a Jew with Hitler and expecting something romantic. Seriously??? Rejoined, I felt, was too politically motivated. Starship Down - excellent. Crossfire was ok, but I felt it was not Odo's finest hour. Accession, I felt, was a yawn fest. I could care less about pretender Emissary.

I agree with you about Indiscretion, it's near the 'bottom' for me as well. I thought it started out great but then it quickly rang false. If there's one thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about S4, it was that Kira was toned way down. Strange

Rejoined is not one that I'm absolutely crazy about either. But I enjoyed it and I appreciated for what it was.

Crossfire was kinda silly. Odo destroying his quarters was a little... much? I enjoyed the scenes between Odo and Quark.

Accession was rather unrealistic, but I enjoyed it regardless. TBH, I'm not the biggest fan of these 'emissary' episodes. Some I like/love, some I don't.

Compared to the awesomeness of S3, S4 just really felt like a let down to me.

While S3 was fantastic at times, I think I would actually put S4 ahead of it.

I dunno, episodes like Fascination, Prophet Motive, Life Support (hey, let's kill off Bareil so we can do Heart of Stone! ), Distant Voices, Meridian, Family Buisness, Equilibrium. There were a lot of misses for me. Like flat out 'misses', as in I barely or didn't enjoy those episodes very much.

WotW... Well, a bunch of little things nagged at me... O'Brien's line to Worf, "couldn't as for a better teacher"? Um... Picard????

He was just being nice?

S5 had patches of really good eps, but some pretty long dry spells too. I wasn't a big fan of Children of Time, Nor the Battle, or Rapture. I felt Apocalypse Rising was a weak season opener, but I loved The Ship. "Looking for Par" pretty much burned my retinas (Klingon and Ferengi *getting ill*). "Let He Who is Without"... ugh. Simple Investigation, another failure for an Odo ep (IMO), just a lot in the back half really left me with a bad taste.

Children of Time was just stellar. One of the best of the entire series.

I thought Nor the Battle was the best Jake centered episode of the entire series as well. It had War themes like nothing else Trek had done before.

I found Rapture to be the best of the Emissary episodes. Nothing was the same after the episode was over.

I enjoyed The Ship, I remember parts of it were a bit underwhelming. Felt like a mixed bag to me.

Let He Who is Without is garbage, one of the worst. Enough said.

I gotta say, Simple Investigation is way better than most of the other "she/he falls in love and then out of love" episodes.

Then the awesomeness that was Call to Arms completely blew me away!

It was a fantastic finale. You'd think that Season 6 would be the last after you saw that episode.

And I found Odo being punished by the link and being transformed into a solid to be pretty interesting. True, they didn't do enough with it, but I still liked it. *shrug*

It's interesting that you didn't care for much of 4/5. IMHO, they were much more interesting than what was going on in say, 1 and 2. Phew, long post, sorry about that.

[nx01a]

'The Visitor' did nothing for me. Episodes like TNG 'The Offspring' were far more moving for me re: parents and children.

[jelgate]

'The Visitor' did nothing for me. Episodes like TNG 'The Offspring' were far more moving for me re: parents and childreb.

Interesting. I found the The Vistor to be inspirational and The Offspring to be mundane. My loathing of Troi probably didn't help.

[Descent]

Interesting. I found the The Vistor to be inspirational and The Offspring to be mundane. My loathing of Troi probably didn't help.

I was moved by both, so there.

The Offspring and The Visitor are pretty similar when you think about it. Father and Son, 'Father' and 'Daughter'...

[nx01a]

'Childreb'? Lol. Don't type while tired.
'The Visitor' did nothing for me. The real thing about 'The Offspring' was that Data couldn't feel for her. The man who didn't think of her as alive ended up feeling for her, the entire crew felt for her, but Data couldn't. It really moved me. As for Jake and Sisko... It just came off as a sad old man who wasted his life and couldn't let go. In Jake's future, the Dominion weren't a threat anymore, right? It wasn't a 'Children of Time' situation where it was a self-contained alt. reality where the external world wasn't affected and the Dominion were still a threat and Sisko was still pivotal in saving everyone and should survive.
Bah. I wasn't moved. Maybe I'm heartless.

[Descent]

The real thing about 'The Offspring' was that Data couldn't feel for her. The man who didn't think of her as alive ended up feeling for her, the entire crew felt for her, but Data couldn't. It really moved me.

Couldn't agree more. Loved it.

As for Jake and Sisko... It just came off as a sad old man who wasted his life and couldn't let go. In Jake's future, the Dominion weren't a threat anymore, right? It wasn't a 'Children of Time' situation where it was a self-contained alt. reality where the external world wasn't affected and the Dominion were still a threat and Sisko was still pivotal in saving everyone and should survive.
Bah. I wasn't moved. Maybe I'm heartless.

Couldn't disagree more. Loved it.

And he didn't waste his life, because in the end, he succeeded!! And Sisko remembers what his son did for him. Like I said to you before, it sounds to me like you didn't 'get it'. Oh well, maybe you ARE heartless.

[Alan Wake]

One day I'll watch Ds9 and be able to decide which season is better. One day...

In the mean time, with what little I have seen of season one... it would have to be season one then.

[DigiFluid]

'The Visitor' did nothing for me.

As for Jake and Sisko... It just came off as a sad old man who wasted his life and couldn't let go. In Jake's future, the Dominion weren't a threat anymore, right? It wasn't a 'Children of Time' situation where it was a self-contained alt. reality where the external world wasn't affected and the Dominion were still a threat and Sisko was still pivotal in saving everyone and should survive.
Bah. I wasn't moved

[Ncc-72452]

I voted season 6, Dominion War was on, tons of great episodes. Season 6 also had one of the best episodes of the series (maybe the best), it was certainly the best Sisko episode, and that of course is "In the Pale Moonlight".

I can't believe others thought the series went down in seasons 4 and 5. Notables episodes for me:

Season 4 - Way of the Warrior Parts 1 & 2, The Visitor, Hippocratic Oath, Starship Down, Homefront, Paradise Lost, Return to Grace, Shattered Mirror, To the Death, Broken Link

Season 5 - Apocalypse Rising, The Ship, The Assignment, The Ascent, Rapture, For the Uniform, In Purgatory's Shadow, By Inferno's Light, Soldiers of the Empire, Children of Time, Blaze of Glory, Empok Nor (excellent Garak episode, shows what a sociopath he could be, yes I know the mind altering drug was causing it, but still with what we about his past, it seems to fit), Call to Arms

To be fair, it seems to be just me that has a problem with Seasons 4 and 5.

Hmm, I don't see that as a reason to dismiss the entire episode though. Also, 20 years is a long time to be in prison, thinking that all hope is gone and that you will never see your loved ones again. It changes you, drills something into you that makes it very, very hard to adapt back into society (granted, O'Brien conveniently returned back to normal by the next episode, but still)

It was a very powerful episode: "When I had the chance to show that no matter what anyone did to me I was still an evolved, human being, I failed. I repaid kindness with blood."

Next to Whispers, it's one of the very best O'Brien episodes.

That was the thing. Now O'Brien is an ex-con. That kinda thing has long lasting effects on an individual. He's suicidal in this episode, but by "To the Death" he's right as rain. It's never mentioned again, and it never has an effect on him again. I really liked O'Brien, and I didn't like seeing their yearly torture O'Brien episodes.

I just felt the suicide part was just really, really over the top.

As a person who loved every bit of the Visitor and was moved at how it showed the powerful bond between father and son, I guess I'll never understand people who didn't love it.

Well, others agree with you because it's been routinely voted as the fan favorite for the series. One year, it beat out BOBW as the favorite trek ep. I felt that it extolled denial as a virtue rather than something to be worked through. The fact that he saved his father in the end means nothing. He had no way of knowing if the life he sacrificed would have been worse than the life he brought about.

It's been awhile (2 or 3 years) since I've seen that one, but I know what you're talking about. I just remember it being much, much better than Indiscretion. That scene where the Klingons 'spare' Dukat was great.

Having an ep better than "Indiscretion" is not much of an accomplishment, if you ask me...

Well, people die all the time in the Mirror Universe episode. What did you want out of mirror Jennifer? SoK was good, not great to me. 'OK' is something that I would give to Rules of Engagement or For the Cause.

I liked seeing her effect on the Sisko boys. I thought Rules of Engagement was better than SoK. Also liked For the Cause, but hated that Yates only got a couple of months for smuggling to a terrorist group. Seriously???

I agree with you about Indiscretion, it's near the 'bottom' for me as well. I thought it started out great but then it quickly rang false. If there's one thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about S4, it was that Kira was toned way down. Strange

Accession was rather unrealistic, but I enjoyed it regardless. TBH, I'm not the biggest fan of these 'emissary' episodes. Some I like/love, some I don't.

Nana Visitor was CONSTANTLY fighting with Behr. Behr kept pushing the Dukat/Kira thing, and she was adamantly against it. She could never see her character doing that, and I completely agree with her. I was happy they finally dropped it, but Behr came back and said fine, but your mother hooked up with him. Ha. There was no dramatic storytelling here, just childish games.

While S3 was fantastic at times, I think I would actually put S4 ahead of it.

I dunno, episodes like Fascination, Prophet Motive, Life Support (hey, let's kill off Bareil so we can do Heart of Stone! ), Distant Voices, Meridian, Family Buisness, Equilibrium. There were a lot of misses for me. Like flat out 'misses', as in I barely or didn't enjoy those episodes very much.

I thought Prophet Motive was funny. Season 3 introduced the Defiant, and had the awesomeness that was Second Skin, Civil Defense, Defiant, Past Tense (I loved these two eps for some reason), Destiny (which I thought was a clever fan submitted story), the TOTAL awesomeness that was Improbable Cause and the Die is Cast (I still remember my mouth hanging open at that rear trucking shot of the Jem'Hadar fighter sweeping through the Romulan/Cardassian fleet.), and The Adversary.

I agree it had its flops, but I can handle an episode that does nothing for me much better than episodes that do things that I don't like, of which S4 and 5 were replete with. The Klingon War, Dukat/Kira, Odo as a human, Odo the jilted lover, and Sisko the reborn Emissary were all sweeping story arcs that permeated S4 and 5, and I didn't like them at all. I felt the show directions in S1-3 were much better, and when they redirected in 6 and 7, I loved those new directions.

He was just being nice?

VERY nice. Maybe he was hoping Sisko was listening in. What was it Captain Maxwell said of him, "But you got that silver tongue by kissing the stone"?

It's interesting that you didn't care for much of 4/5. IMHO, they were much more interesting than what was going on in say, 1 and 2. Phew, long post, sorry about that.

Yeah, I liked S1 and 2 far and away better than anything in S4 or 5 (Call to Arms and WotW are among several notable exceptions). S1 had some great stand alone episodes. When I watch them, I can still remember how young and exciting the series was (or maybe how excited I was for the new series). First 4 eps of the second season blew me away. DS9 came up with the whole Maquis concept in this season, a concept that transcended to TNG, and was pivotal to Voyager. The Mirror Universe episodes started here; Enabrin Tain was introed, Dax's Klingon connection was introed, and the Dominion arc itself began here.

'The Visitor' did nothing for me. Episodes like TNG 'The Offspring' were far more moving for me re: parents and children.

Agreed. I thought "The Offspring" was FAR better than "The Visitor," and I first saw offspring when I was in the fifth grade. I was practically an adult for "The Visitor" and in a batter condition to understand parenting. I felt that the Visitor extols the inability to move on after a loss rather than accepting it and getting on with your life. I actually couldn't believe that they did an ep like that. The Jake character pretty much didn't have a roll or life away from his father, and they made an episode to celebrate the fact!

[Descent]

To be fair, it seems to be just me that has a problem with Seasons 4 and 5.

Hmph.

That was the thing. Now O'Brien is an ex-con. That kinda thing has long lasting effects on an individual. He's suicidal in this episode, but by "To the Death" he's right as rain. It's never mentioned again, and it never has an effect on him again. I really liked O'Brien, and I didn't like seeing their yearly torture O'Brien episodes.

I just felt the suicide part was just really, really over the top.

It's a shame, I think. I guess even DS9 had a few reset buttons every now and then. But, it doesn't take away from the impact of the episode.

I personally loved those 'torture the chief' episodes. Not because I didn't like O'Brien, but because as an everyman, you can relate to what he goes through in each episode and that, I think, makes it much stronger than it would be if it was another character.

Well, others agree with you because it's been routinely voted as the fan favorite for the series. One year, it beat out BOBW as the favorite trek ep. I felt that it extolled denial as a virtue rather than something to be worked through. The fact that he saved his father in the end means nothing. He had no way of knowing if the life he sacrificed would have been worse than the life he brought about.

Watching their father 'phase out' of existence would be unsettling to any young boy. Jake is then 'haunted' by his father, who keeps appearing again and again, but is helpless to keep him there. He just keeps vanishing again and again and again.

Would you feel like a life with the father that you love would be better than the one you had now, if you felt like you could change it? Exactly.

Without Sisko, the Klingon/Federation relationship declined. With Sisko, the Klingons ended the war, joined us against the Dominion, and we won. Seems like Jake did the right thing.

And why do people think that Jake was in denial for all his life?? He accepted it and moved on. He became a successful writer, got married, etc. Until Sisko appeared again, and as he tried to catch up with him, he disappears again. It would be heartbreaking. Think about it.

He had to die so that his father could live.

It was brilliant and I was moved. One of DS9's finest hours and it raises S4 a little bit up in my eyes. I would easily take it over The Offspring, not to say I don't love that one either, but the Visitor was much more moving to this fan.

Having an ep better than "Indiscretion" is not much of an accomplishment, if you ask me...

You think it's that bad? I thought it was average. Definitely could've been better if those Dukat/Kira scenes wouldn't of felt so forced. So, RtG was 'good'.

I liked seeing her effect on the Sisko boys. I thought Rules of Engagement was better than SoK. Also liked For the Cause, but hated that Yates only got a couple of months for smuggling to a terrorist group. Seriously???

For a series that usually builds things up, For the Cause felt out of the blue and forced in parts. Both episodes were above average to me, but not 'good'.

Nana Visitor was CONSTANTLY fighting with Behr. Behr kept pushing the Dukat/Kira thing, and she was adamantly against it. She could never see her character doing that, and I completely agree with her. I was happy they finally dropped it, but Behr came back and said fine, but your mother hooked up with him. Ha. There was no dramatic storytelling here, just childish games.

Where did you find this out?

I thought Prophet Motive was funny.

I don't find the majority of Ferengi-centered episodes very funny. Especially when they're centered on Zek, Moogi and Rom.

Season 3 introduced the Defiant, and had the awesomeness that was Second Skin, Civil Defense, Defiant, Past Tense (I loved these two eps for some reason), Destiny (which I thought was a clever fan submitted story), the TOTAL awesomeness that was Improbable Cause and the Die is Cast (I still remember my mouth hanging open at that rear trucking shot of the Jem'Hadar fighter sweeping through the Romulan/Cardassian fleet.), and The Adversary.

I loved those episodes too, although Civil Defense is not exactly an awesome episode to me. I liked it, but it was a pretty average episode.

I agree it had its flops, but I can handle an episode that does nothing for me much better than episodes that do things that I don't like

There were plenty of things that I did not like about those episodes that I mentioned.

of which S4 and 5 were replete with. The Klingon War, Dukat/Kira, Odo as a human, Odo the jilted lover, and Sisko the reborn Emissary were all sweeping story arcs that permeated S4 and 5, and I didn't like them at all. I felt the show directions in S1-3 were much better, and when they redirected in 6 and 7, I loved those new directions.

Every season has some 'arc' or episode(s) that I don't care for at all. Even Season 6 has the stupidest episode of all of Trek, Profit and Lace. Bleh.

Yeah, I liked S1 and 2 far and away better than anything in S4 or 5 (Call to Arms and WotW are among several notable exceptions). S1 had some great stand alone episodes.

S1 will always be the worst to me. And that's not to say I disliked it, but there was only one truly standout episode of that season and it was Duet. Emissary, Vortex, Progress and In the Hands came close though. As with all first seasons, they were still trying to find their way. Most of these episodes felt like stuff that TNG could've easily done in some way.

First 4 eps of the second season blew me away. DS9 came up with the whole Maquis concept in this season, a concept that transcended to TNG, and was pivotal to Voyager. The Mirror Universe episodes started here; Enabrin Tain was introed, Dax's Klingon connection was introed, and the Dominion arc itself began here.

I agree that Season 2 expanded the universe/franchise a lot more than S1, but I still found a good portion of the Season to be average/mediocre. Absolutely hated Sanctuary. Didn't care for Melora, Second Sight, Rules of Acquisition, Playing God and Profit and Loss. Ferengi. Ugh.

I loved Nessacery Evil, The Wire, Crossover and Whispers. Some of my favorite episodes of the entire series.

That last stretch of episodes from Blood Oath - The Jem'Hadar was great. Still, it felt like they were trying to find their way a bit. Still using runabouts for everything. Still just exploring the Gamma Quadrant.

Agreed. I thought "The Offspring" was FAR better than "The Visitor," and I first saw offspring when I was in the fifth grade. I was practically an adult for "The Visitor" and in a batter condition to understand parenting.

I feel like Offspring isn't without its problems. It was almost too 'cute' in places.

I also didn't care for the fact that Starfleet's position regarding Lal's development (intending to separate her from Data) felt like an excessively forced point of conflict.

I have zero problems with Visitor. Another long post, sorry about that.

[Ncc-72452]

It's a shame, I think. I guess even DS9 had a few reset buttons every now and then. But, it doesn't take away from the impact of the episode.

I personally loved those 'torture the chief' episodes. Not because I didn't like O'Brien, but because as an everyman, you can relate to what he goes through in each episode and that, I think, makes it much stronger than it would be if it was another character.

Every series did it though. It was part of the stand-alone nature of Star Trek for syndication. I think DS9's worst example though is in "To the Death" when one of the upper pylons is destroyed, and next week, there isn't even a scratch.

ITA that as an "everyman" what happens to O'Brien is all the more poignant. Wouldn't you then like to see nice things happen to him? Why on earth would you like to see someone like you and me suffer in hideous and unique ways every season? Moore carried that tradition into BSG BTW. Look at Chief Tyrol.

Watching their father 'phase out' of existence would be unsettling to any young boy. Jake is then 'haunted' by his father, who keeps appearing again and again, but is helpless to keep him there. He just keeps vanishing again and again and again.

Would you feel like a life with the father that you love would be better than the one you had now, if you felt like you could change it? Exactly.

Without Sisko, the Klingon/Federation relationship declined. With Sisko, the Klingons ended the war, joined us against the Dominion, and we won. Seems like Jake did the right thing.

And why do people think that Jake was in denial for all his life?? He accepted it and moved on. He became a successful writer, got married, etc. Until Sisko appeared again, and as he tried to catch up with him, he disappears again. It would be heartbreaking. Think about it.

He had to die so that his father could live.

It was brilliant and I was moved. One of DS9's finest hours and it raises S4 a little bit up in my eyes. I would easily take it over The Offspring, not to say I don't love that one either, but the Visitor was much more moving to this fan.

Many people have lost a loved one and continue to dream or, in some cases, hallucinate about them. Should they then sacrifice their careers, marriages, and lives in an effort to find some way to save this individual? In Jake's case, it is real, but to some of these others it seems real to them as well.

And no, I don't automatically assume that a life with a loving family is better than one without. Sometimes loss is more essential than gain. For example, if Pearl Harbor had not occurred, our entry into WWII could have been delayed resulted in an overall loss despite a short term gain.

For one example, off the top of my head, Jadzia Dax was still alive in Jake's future. By saving Sisko, he ended up causing a chain of events that resulted in Jadzia Dax's death. Is her life less important than Sisko's?

You think it's that bad? I thought it was average. Definitely could've been better if those Dukat/Kira scenes wouldn't of felt so forced. So, RtG was 'good'.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that it was THAT bad. There are certainly worse episodes. I would rate it as "ok" but only because of Kira in it.

For a series that usually builds things up, For the Cause felt out of the blue and forced in parts. Both episodes were above average to me, but not 'good'.

Well, there was always fan speculation that Eddington and Yates were bad seeds. This just kinda confirmed both. Then, they decided they wanted Yates back. (Actually, the actresses was going to be unavailable in the future, I think because of 24, so they had to write her out).

I'd have to agree they were both average.

Where did you find this out?

Behind the scenes features on the DS9 DVD sets. Interviews with Behr and Visitor themselves, so it's directly from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry, but I can't for the life of me remember what season or special feature.

I don't find the majority of Ferengi-centered episodes very funny. Especially when they're centered on Zek, Moogi and Rom.

Some I loath; some are ok; some are mildly amusing; some make me laugh until I cry (Magnificent Ferengi).

I loved those episodes too, although Civil Defense is not exactly an awesome episode to me. I liked it, but it was a pretty average episode.

Civil Defense ROCKED!!! It involved every character even JAKE; had Garak; and it had what I felt was a clever plot and storyline that focused on our station.

There were plenty of things that I did not like about those episodes that I mentioned.

Fair enough.

Every season has some 'arc' or episode(s) that I don't care for at all. Even Season 6 has the stupidest episode of all of Trek, Profit and Lace. Bleh.

Well, that was only one ep. The stuff I mentioned were arcs that occurred over several episodes. Kira/Dukat was in Indiscretion and RtG for example.

S1 will always be the worst to me. And that's not to say I disliked it, but there was only one truly standout episode of that season and it was Duet. Emissary, Vortex, Progress and In the Hands came close though. As with all first seasons, they were still trying to find their way. Most of these episodes felt like stuff that TNG could've easily done in some way.

Uh... Maybe that's why I like that season so much, it's TNG-ness. Though Duet is one they could have done on TNG with Ro, but that doesn't take away from how incredible an ep that is to me. It is quite possibly my favorite of the series.

I agree that Season 2 expanded the universe/franchise a lot more than S1, but I still found a good portion of the Season to be average/mediocre. Absolutely hated Sanctuary. Didn't care for Melora, Second Sight, Rules of Acquisition, Playing God and Profit and Loss. Ferengi. Ugh.

I loved Nessacery Evil, The Wire, Crossover and Whispers. Some of my favorite episodes of the entire series.

That last stretch of episodes from Blood Oath - The Jem'Hadar was great. Still, it felt like they were trying to find their way a bit. Still using runabouts for everything. Still just exploring the Gamma Quadrant.

Agreed, I love all of the episodes you mentioned, and I loathed Sanctuary along with the other ones you mentioned. However, that stretch you mentioned is a good third of the season! How many more good eps in a season do you need? To me, S4 and 5 have little burps where there are good/awesome/incredible episodes. The rest of the time, its average/mediocre/below average/bad (IMO). S1, 2, and 3 have some pretty good stretches punctuated by some burps of bad eps rather than the other way around. Plus, the overriding arc of the seasons are good and entertaining, whereas I feel that isn't the case of 4 and 5.

I feel like Offspring isn't without its problems. It was almost too 'cute' in places.

I also didn't care for the fact that Starfleet's position regarding Lal's development (intending to separate her from Data) felt like an excessively forced point of conflict.

I have zero problems with Visitor. Another long post, sorry about that.

Offspring definitely has its problems. I didn't mean to imply that it was a favorite, just that I liked it better than Visitor.

[Descent]

Every series did it though. It was part of the stand-alone nature of Star Trek for syndication. I think DS9's worst example though is in "To the Death" when one of the upper pylons is destroyed, and next week, there isn't even a scratch.

True, but I always felt like DS9 was different from the others and didn't always rely on a reset button to end the episode (*cough*Voyager*cough*), especially in the later seasons.

ITA that as an "everyman" what happens to O'Brien is all the more poignant. Wouldn't you then like to see nice things happen to him? Why on earth would you like to see someone like you and me suffer in hideous and unique ways every season? Moore carried that tradition into BSG BTW. Look at Chief Tyrol.

I think bad things happening to a good guy is usually much more interesting. Which is obvious because I loved Hard Time and Whispers, and really liked Visionary, Tribunal and Honor Among Thieves. The Assignment was alright.

And I did notice that! Tyrol had it even worse than O'Brien most of the time.

Many people have lost a loved one and continue to dream or, in some cases, hallucinate about them. Should they then sacrifice their careers, marriages, and lives in an effort to find some way to save this individual? In Jake's case, it is real, but to some of these others it seems real to them as well.

Like I pointed out, he did give up and continue on with his life. But when he saw that his father was still phasing in and out, he knew that he had to do something. Anything.

And no, I don't automatically assume that a life with a loving family is better than one without. Sometimes loss is more essential than gain. For example, if Pearl Harbor had not occurred, our entry into WWII could have been delayed resulted in an overall loss despite a short term gain.

Sometimes gain is more essential than loss? If Jake had not tried so hard to rescue his father, we would still be getting it from the Klingons.

For one example, off the top of my head, Jadzia Dax was still alive in Jake's future. By saving Sisko, he ended up causing a chain of events that resulted in Jadzia Dax's death. Is her life less important than Sisko's?

Well, how was Jake supposed to know that she would die because of what he did? As far as he knows, we got screwed over by the Klingons, his dad is gone and god only knows what the Dominion were planning to do in that future. Losing Jadzia is nothing compared to stopping the Klingon war and winning the Dominion War.

Jake did the 'right' thing.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that it was THAT bad. There are certainly worse episodes. I would rate it as "ok" but only because of Kira in it.

I really enjoyed those early scenes: "Captain Sisko is right...you are in love with the sound of your own voice."

But then the episode quickly became only a so-so one. True, I did not like those 'bonding' scenes with Kira and Dukat, but I like the fact that Dukat had become this reluctant ally for the season.

Well, there was always fan speculation that Eddington and Yates were bad seeds. This just kinda confirmed both. Then, they decided they wanted Yates back. (Actually, the actresses was going to be unavailable in the future, I think because of 24, so they had to write her out).

Fan speculation is different from 'official confirmation'. I would've preferred that. Or at least a hint in the one of the early episodes. Anything!

24 wasn't even on at that point, so who knows what it was.

Some I loath; some are ok; some are mildly amusing; some make me laugh until I cry (Magnificent Ferengi).

Magnificent Ferengi is pretty funny. I love that one. A lot of the others though, not so much.

I usually skip most of them when I'm rewatching

Civil Defense ROCKED!!! It involved every character even JAKE; had Garak; and it had what I felt was a clever plot and storyline that focused on our station.

I've watched it about 4 or 5 times now and I still think it's a fun episode. Nothing stellar though. The C-Plot with Odo and Quark stuck in his office felt pretty pointless. Glad you liked it so much though, I'm rewatching S3 right now, so I'll watch it tonight and see how I feel about it after all these years.

Well, that was only one ep. The stuff I mentioned were arcs that occurred over several episodes. Kira/Dukat was in Indiscretion and RtG for example.

There's some other stuff. As much as I love S7 (my third favorite), I felt like some of the opening arcs were 'iffy'. Worf trying to kill himself because of Jadzia's death.

And there were some things that I disliked about the last ten episode finale. The lines between Ezri and Worf (when they were captured) were childish and silly. Some uninspired dialogue in those scenes.

I'm able to look past some of that stuff, because DS9 pulls through and is pretty amazing through out almost any season, really.

Uh... Maybe that's why I like that season so much, it's TNG-ness. Though Duet is one they could have done on TNG with Ro, but that doesn't take away from how incredible an ep that is to me. It is quite possibly my favorite of the series.

Well, maybe that's why I don't like that season too much. It's way too familiar and sometimes feels uninspired. I'd rather watch TNG than see something copying TNG.

That's what I don't like about the first season. Lots and lots of average episodes and a couple pretty bad ones (A Man Alone, If Wishes Were Horses).

It's a fine first season but it didn't blow me away like a lot of the later seasons did.

Agreed, I love all of the episodes you mentioned, and I loathed Sanctuary along with the other ones you mentioned. However, that stretch you mentioned is a good third of the season! How many more good eps in a season do you need?

It's actually more of a fourth of the season. And just because that last stretch was pretty much great, it doesn't automatically = "well, I'll forgive you for all the rest".

It reminds me of that great last stretch of episodes (Engima-Serpent's Grasp) in SG-1's first season. I loved it. Doesn't mean I'll forget about Emancipation, Hathor, etc. and say it's one of my favorite seasons.

A healthy amount of good-amazing episodes, along with a couple of average ones and the occasional stinker or two (usually the Ferengi ones) is what I usually get out of DS9's seasons.

I also look at it from a rewatch standpoint:

Season 1 has 8 episodes that I (usually) will skip (A Man Alone, Q-Less, The Passenger, Move Along Home, The Nagus, The Storyteller, If Wishes Were Horses and The Forsaken).

Season 2 has 6 episodes that I will skip (all the ones I mentioned before).

Season 3 has 6 episodes that I will skip (Equilibrium, Meridian, Fascination, Prophet Motive, Distant Voices, Family Business) I'm finding myself skipping one per disc on my current rewatch.

Season 4 has only 2 episodes that I will skip (Bar Association and The Muse).

Season 5 has only 2 as well (Let He Who Is Without and Ferengi Love Songs).

Season 6 has only 1 (Profit and Lace)

Season 7 has only 2 (The Emperor's New Cloak and Take Me Out to the Holosuite)

So there ya go, it looks like I felt that the episode quality was good and steady through out 4-7 and that 1-3 stumbled a little bit more.

I can only assume that you feel differently about them.

(Btw, I would green you for all this, but I can't. It's been awhile since I've really enjoyed a DS9 conversation with someone. Kudos. )

[Ncc-72452]

True, but I always felt like DS9 was different from the others and didn't always rely on a reset button to end the episode (*cough*Voyager*cough*), especially in the later seasons.

*smiles and nods in agreement*

I think bad things happening to a good guy is usually much more interesting. Which is obvious because I loved Hard Time and Whispers, and really liked Visionary, Tribunal and Honor Among Thieves. The Assignment was alright.

And I did notice that! Tyrol had it even worse than O'Brien most of the time.

I would prefer a mixture of both good things and bad things happening to him. I loved Visionary (oh, look, season 3!), but I didn't like Honor Among Thieves. Tribunal was alright. I didn't like The Assignment when I first watched it, but I've watched it a few times now, and it's kinda grown on me.

Like I pointed out, he did give up and continue on with his life. But when he saw that his father was still phasing in and out, he knew that he had to do something. Anything.



Sometimes gain is more essential than loss? If Jake had not tried so hard to rescue his father, we would still be getting it from the Klingons.



Well, how was Jake supposed to know that she would die because of what he did? As far as he knows, we got screwed over by the Klingons, his dad is gone and god only knows what the Dominion were planning to do in that future. Losing Jadzia is nothing compared to stopping the Klingon war and winning the Dominion War.

Jake did the 'right' thing.

He went on with his life until his father appeared to him, then he became obsessed. Jake, like many people, should realize that messing with time is a big no-no filled with unintended consequences. Besides, we have no idea of the state of the quadrant with regards to the Klingons and the Dominion.

I really enjoyed those early scenes: "Captain Sisko is right...you are in love with the sound of your own voice."

But then the episode quickly became only a so-so one. True, I did not like those 'bonding' scenes with Kira and Dukat, but I like the fact that Dukat had become this reluctant ally for the season.

Kira is what makes the episode bearable for me. Without her, it would stink. I was open to him being a reluctant ally, but not a potential buddy or romantic interest.

Fan speculation is different from 'official confirmation'. I would've preferred that. Or at least a hint in the one of the early episodes. Anything!

24 wasn't even on at that point, so who knows what it was.

Oops. You're right. She was in something though... And they needed to explain where she was for the long term.

Magnificent Ferengi is pretty funny. I love that one. A lot of the others though, not so much.

I usually skip most of them when I'm rewatching

Yup, I would agree with you there. The only Ferengi eps I do like are Prophet Motive, Little Green Men, and Magnificent Ferengi. Oh, and Treachery, Faith, and the Great River has a Ferengi B-plot that I really liked. Family Business was ok, not good, not bad.

I've watched it about 4 or 5 times now and I still think it's a fun episode. Nothing stellar though. The C-Plot with Odo and Quark stuck in his office felt pretty pointless. Glad you liked it so much though, I'm rewatching S3 right now, so I'll watch it tonight and see how I feel about it after all these years.

Well, maybe I exaggerate, but I just really remember liking this one, and I have watched it many times, and I just liked how everytime they try to stop the next part, the program just keeps getting worse and worse. It involved everyone, which I think is really impressive. I can only think of a handful of eps that actually use their entire cast and use them effectively.

There's some other stuff. As much as I love S7 (my third favorite), I felt like some of the opening arcs were 'iffy'. Worf trying to kill himself because of Jadzia's death.

And there were some things that I disliked about the last ten episode finale. The lines between Ezri and Worf (when they were captured) were childish and silly. Some uninspired dialogue in those scenes.

I'm able to look past some of that stuff, because DS9 pulls through and is pretty amazing through out almost any season, really.

Oh, there were many things I didn't like about the last ten ep. arc. I kinda do a BSG on DS9's season 7. I loved 7.0, but I kinda loathed 7.5. I almost never rewatch any of eps from 7.5, but there are many in 7.0 that I LOVE: Field of Fire, Treachery Faith, Inter Arma, Take Me Out, Once More, and the Seige of AR-558. I also really liked Badda Bing, Badda Bang.

Well, maybe that's why I don't like that season too much. It's way too familiar and sometimes feels uninspired. I'd rather watch TNG than see something copying TNG.

That's what I don't like about the first season. Lots and lots of average episodes and a couple pretty bad ones (A Man Alone, If Wishes Were Horses).

It's a fine first season but it didn't blow me away like a lot of the later seasons did.

*pouts* You didn't like A Man Alone? "Justice. Really? Is it justice you're after...or just some way to express you anger? Your fear. Look at yourselves...in an hour, you'll regret what you tried to do here. Do not condemn this man because he is different than you..."

*Crosses arms* I liked If Wishes Were Horses better than Indiscretion.

It's actually more of a fourth of the season. And just because that last stretch was pretty much great, it doesn't automatically = "well, I'll forgive you for all the rest".

It reminds me of that great last stretch of episodes (Engima-Serpent's Grasp) in SG-1's first season. I loved it. Doesn't mean I'll forget about Emancipation, Hathor, etc. and say it's one of my favorite seasons.

*blinks*

You make a good point. And I agree that the middle of Season 2, well wreaks of decay... The beginning and end make it among my favorites. Some of Sisko's lines that season really make me chuckle. "Don't appologize, Doctor. It's been the high point of my day... (Menacingly) Don't do it again." "Establish a dialogue, what the hell does she think I've been trying to do?" And this one is my favorite Sisko line, but it's not funny, "Sure you would, dying gets you off the hook. Question is -- are you willing to live for your people? Live the roll they want you to play. That's what they need from you right now."

I know a lot of people don't like Season 2, but it's among my favorites.

A healthy amount of good-amazing episodes, along with a couple of average ones and the occasional stinker or two (usually the Ferengi ones) is what I usually get out of DS9's seasons.

I also look at it from a rewatch standpoint:

Season 1 has 8 episodes that I (usually) will skip (A Man Alone, Q-Less, The Passenger, Move Along Home, The Nagus, The Storyteller, If Wishes Were Horses and The Forsaken).

Season 2 has 6 episodes that I will skip (all the ones I mentioned before).

Season 3 has 6 episodes that I will skip (Equilibrium, Meridian, Fascination, Prophet Motive, Distant Voices, Family Business) I'm finding myself skipping one per disc on my current rewatch.

Season 4 has only 2 episodes that I will skip (Bar Association and The Muse).

Season 5 has only 2 as well (Let He Who Is Without and Ferengi Love Songs).

Season 6 has only 1 (Profit and Lace)

Season 7 has only 2 (The Emperor's New Cloak and Take Me Out to the Holosuite)

So there ya go, it looks like I felt that the episode quality was good and steady through out 4-7 and that 1-3 stumbled a little bit more.

I can only assume that you feel differently about them.

Skippers in Season 1: The Passenger, The Nagus, The Storyteller. Total = 3

Season 2: Melora, Rules of Acq, Second Sight, Sanctuary, and Shadowplay. Total = 5

Season 3: Life Support, Heart of Stone, Distant Voices, and Explorers. Total = 4

Season 4: The Visitor (sorry ), Rejoined, Crossfire, Sons of Mogh, Accession, Hard Time, The Muse, The Quickening, and Body Parts. Total = 9

Season 5: Apocalypse Rising, Looking for Par'muck, Nor the Battle to the Strong, Let He Who is Without Sin, Rapture, A Simple Investigation, Ties of Blood and Water, Ferengi Love Songs, and Children of Time (Usually, so I won't count this one though). Total = 8

Season 6: Honor Among Thieves, The Reckoning, Profit and Lace, and maybe His Way and Time's Orphan (won't count these because I have gone back and watched them on occassion). Total = 3.

Season 7: Covenant, Emperor's New Cloak, Penumbra, Til Death do us Part, and Strange Bedfellows. Total = 5

(Btw, I would green you for all this, but I can't. It's been awhile since I've really enjoyed a DS9 conversation with someone. Kudos. )

Me as well stupid spread the green! Who knew Gateworld was filled with tree-huggers???