Deep Space 9 Superior

[gopher65]

Sudan is in Africa? My geography is brutal.....

*Hits Trek Girl with a nerf bat*

Bad Trek Girl! Bad!

[nx01a]

Sudan, Darfur, hot current events/general humanity issue!

Soon to be overtaken and eclipsed by China, unfortunately.

[DigiFluid]

Well it would depend on your definition of Middle-Eastern, since the "region" doesn't have any clear boundaries. Most people consider the boundaries of the Middle-East to be Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey though some still consider other countries farther out such as Pakistan, Afganistan, as well as Sudan somewhat part of the Middle-East

True, but even if we were to take the whole of the old Ottoman Empire as our definition of the Middle East, that still doesn't include (much of) Sudan.

[Xicer]

Yeah I can understand that. The Sudanese people are racially different from the Arabs that occupy the Middle-East given their Nubian heritage. I just pointed out that since its so close to Egypt some people consider it to be part of a "greater Middle East."

[DigiFluid]

Yeah, it's really just a problem inherent with trying to demarcate a specific area, when in reality everything is a shade of grey. You could include Sudan in the cultural influence sphere of the Middle East, but then if you went south a ways I'm sure there would be a lot in common between Sudan and its southern neighbours as well. Such is the problem with trying to create divides where there really are none.

[Trek_Girl42]

Well it would depend on your definition of Middle-Eastern, since the "region" doesn't have any clear boundaries. Most people consider the boundaries of the Middle-East to be Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey though some still consider other countries farther out such as Pakistan, Afganistan, as well as Sudan somewhat part of the Middle-East.

Spoiler:

But anyway, we're gonna have a Middle-Eastern captain in Trek XI.

http://trekweb.com/articles/2008/04/...-Captain.shtml

He's played by a Pakistani actor but he portrays a Middle-Eastern Starfleet Captain.

Interesting, I just hope that

Spoiler:

they don't comment on it within the movie and that it's just a granted thing- when you comment on how diverse you are, you're defeating the point.

Yeah, it's really just a problem inherent with trying to demarcate a specific area, when in reality everything is a shade of grey. You could include Sudan in the cultural influence sphere of the Middle East, but then if you went south a ways I'm sure there would be a lot in common between Sudan and its southern neighbours as well. Such is the problem with trying to create divides where there really are none.

The things to be learned from this thread.....I'm going to have to take out my map book and have a look.

[nx01a]

Don't. The world on a map is stable. Start actually looking around and you may be quite disturbed.

[kmiller1610]

Maybe we should poll if the idea of distinctively separate cultures with big, bold, consistent differences is passe, an artifact of a previous era? I think it's charming, but clearly a caricature. I mean we go to a planet and it has ONE culture? Well, that saves time and serves symbolism, but it certainly doesn't match reality here on earth.

[Darkstar 2.0]

Again walking in at the end of a conversation here I feel alienated, but then again if I came here more often...?

Anyway, I do beleive too little emphasis is put on other worlds when it can so obviously be compared to Earth's cultures and how diverse that we have it here on the 3rd rock from the sun, it has been one thing that has bothered me a lot, other worlds seem flat, their cultures seem to be unique to the planet as a whole, few notable exceptions to this rule have appeared in various episodes that I can remember.

The Anear were a seperate culture to the Andorians and made the episodes that little bit more special, even if the Anear were not fully developed or that interesting to all fans, this should of been a common occurance in many subsequent episodes and any future series ever, even non Trek series, the fans need credit.

We cannot for one minute accept that an advanced civilisation of anglo-american-ised aliens have survived as a whole planet wide culture to the then contempary evolution of Spaceships, fleets and interplanetary civilisations without the added ingreedients that we have here on earth:

War!!!, and war between diverse cultures in light of religion, political or social differences are what shape a world, as nasty and as de-evolved as they seem, War and WWII in one particular here on Earth has advanced the human race from the 20th century well into the 21st because as we are told, war is good for economy, it puts different countires into debt, manufactures boarders, treaties, and alliances, this diverse range of cultures is what ultimately feeds each other, as a whole it's likely future wars, or advancements that come from war as a result enrich those who survive, as morbid as that sounds the era's where war has not always be distinct, have been dark, slow and victims of overconfidence.

However having said that, Earth of the Future may well be a common eg: Westernised (Trek) Easternised (Firefly) culture as a whole, banding together as a result may well prove to be our greatest acheivement.

That's just one thing that has always bothered me.


phew, I think that was a long time comming lol!!

[USS Defiant]

Great back and forth everyone, I love how deep the subject matter and conversation gets on this epic thread, I need to spend more time in the evening around here. I'm a few episodes ahead in my viewing for the episode discussion so I am going to proceed, don't mind me, I am enjoying the latest conversation.

[USS Defiant]

DS9 Season III Episode Discussion
Episode #50 Second Skin

The Cardassians kidnap Kira and surgically alter her appearance into that of a Cardassian. Then they tell her she's really an undercover Cardassian spy named Iliana Ghemor, whose real memory had been erased and original appearance changed to Bajoran so she could infiltrate Bajor. Now they want the information she was to gather.

"Second Skin" proves itself as an atypical drama when it could've been a complete failure. The writers have crafted the story such that it appears to the audience the Cardassians might very well be telling the truth. While the episode is, in a way, a series of fabrications that try to convince us that it's going to completely rewrite Kira's backstory, it works because of its emotional sincerity. Sure, by the end we find out that, yes, the Cardassians were lying and, no, Kira isn't really a Cardassian. But the episode doesn't really rely on the identity gag because it reveals true substance as it unfolds.

It's a terrific story with some great dramatic moments, with the added bonus of a satisfying conclusion, a refreshing cheat-free venture into Cardassian political problems. The musical score was especially wonderful.

Although the episode spends plenty of time trying to convince us Kira is a Cardassian, and does so quite well by offering so much indicative evidence that even I was having brief second thoughts, the heart of the episode really lies in the characters.

It's really about how Kira finally accepts a lie after having it drilled into her head over and over. It also gives Kira a chance to develop a friendship with Cardassian Ghemor (Lawrence Pressman), who adamantly claims he's her father. The scenes between Kira and Ghemor are right on target, because they're both victims of the same deception--the underhanded plotting by Cardassian Entek (Gregory Sierra) to expose Ghemor as a traitor trying to bring change to Cardassian society.

Ghemor did indeed have an undercover daughter on Bajor named Iliana, and Entek uses Kira's resemblance to Iliana as a ploy to manipulate Ghemor.

Entek is a member of the Obsidian Order, a powerful, all-knowing Cardassian variation of Big Brother. He's the worst type of villain--the kind who claims to be your friend and then stabs you in the back. The Obsidian Order also has the resources to make a ruse seem disturbingly real, as Entek offers the initially disbelieving Kira so much evidence she eventually cracks and accepts the lies as truths.

Further propelling the story is a B-plot with Sisko taking the Defiant to track Kira down with the help of Garak and Odo. Robinson, as always, gets some of the best-timed lines and most interesting dialogue. (His character has emerged as one of the cast's best, and I say it's time to put his credit in the opening title with everyone else's.) A scene where they charge in to the rescue works surprisingly well, and the potentially obvious gag where Odo uses his morphing ability to foil Entek is so well-executed that I almost wanted to cheer.Another interesting part of "Second Skin" is the rare look into Cardassian civilization, which, based on what Star Trek has offered so far, seems like a civilization inspired from Orwell's 1984. As seen here and before, the Cardassians' Obsidian Order bares many obvious similarities to Big Brother; those who oppose it are destroyed. As seen in "Tribunal," any innocent person can be guilty of a crime at the government's discretion. Subtle visuals such as a large telescreen mounted on the side of a Cardassian building are also reminiscent of Orwellian motifs. Picard's torture in TNG's "Chain of Command II" was nearly a total reenactment of Orwell's torture scene near the end of his novel. In "Chain of Command II," Gul Madred tortures Picard into believing there are five lights when in reality there are only four. In 1984, Orwell's hero is forced into believing his torturer is holding up five fingers when in reality he is holding up just four. Coincidence?

Very interesting episode!. All around, a very well-done Trek. I give it 8.6 stars

[gopher65]

war is good for economy

This is a misnomer that I've noticed that many people like to quote. War is in fact very, very bad an economy *as a whole*. It is great for manufacturing, resource extraction industries, and certain branches of technological development (weapons, advanced materials sciences, bio-warfare research, etc). Every other branch of the economy suffers immeasurably during war.

In the olden days (like, the 50's) it was popular sentiment that the only parts of the economy that really mattered were manufacturing and mining, and everything else was just dead weight. Hence why they came to say "War Is Good For The Economy" as if it were some kind of recruitment slogan. 'Don't worry about mom and dad at home! Join the military, because it is good for the economy! They'll be fine!'

[gopher65]

Has anyone else noticed that I rarely comment ontopic?

[the Fifth Race]

Has anyone else noticed that I rarely comment ontopic?

You rock brother gopher. You always come to the table with a great take on whatever conversation is going on. Versatility is one of many things I love about this thread and our fellow superior thread brethren. It's one of the reasons this thread stays fresh and interesting. As I have said many times before, DS9 and Trek/Stargate fans in general are the smartest (and best looking).

[Trek_Girl42]

Again walking in at the end of a conversation here I feel alienated, but then again if I came here more often...?

Anyway, I do beleive too little emphasis is put on other worlds when it can so obviously be compared to Earth's cultures and how diverse that we have it here on the 3rd rock from the sun, it has been one thing that has bothered me a lot, other worlds seem flat, their cultures seem to be unique to the planet as a whole, few notable exceptions to this rule have appeared in various episodes that I can remember.

The Anear were a seperate culture to the Andorians and made the episodes that little bit more special, even if the Anear were not fully developed or that interesting to all fans, this should of been a common occurance in many subsequent episodes and any future series ever, even non Trek series, the fans need credit.

We cannot for one minute accept that an advanced civilisation of anglo-american-ised aliens have survived as a whole planet wide culture to the then contempary evolution of Spaceships, fleets and interplanetary civilisations without the added ingreedients that we have here on earth:

War!!!, and war between diverse cultures in light of religion, political or social differences are what shape a world, as nasty and as de-evolved as they seem, War and WWII in one particular here on Earth has advanced the human race from the 20th century well into the 21st because as we are told, war is good for economy, it puts different countires into debt, manufactures boarders, treaties, and alliances, this diverse range of cultures is what ultimately feeds each other, as a whole it's likely future wars, or advancements that come from war as a result enrich those who survive, as morbid as that sounds the era's where war has not always be distinct, have been dark, slow and victims of overconfidence.

However having said that, Earth of the Future may well be a common eg: Westernised (Trek) Easternised (Firefly) culture as a whole, banding together as a result may well prove to be our greatest acheivement.

That's just one thing that has always bothered me.


phew, I think that was a long time comming lol!!

Mono-cultured aliens drive me up the wall- they all dress the same, they all look the same, they all act the same, they have the same religion (if the writers are feeling ambitious they'll have different factions of the same religion), they all talk the same.....Sure, you might only have one episode to explore an alien race, and a limited budget. But try to make an effort to show that these characters are individuals. We're not usually looking at an army- they don't all need to have the same outfit and hairstyle and ideals!

This is why I liked the DS9 model- new alien every week works for awhile, but it soon becomes ridiculously predictable. At least we got to see these alien cultures develop a bit- not all Ferengi held the same values, as we learned. Bajorans were conflicted. Even the Klingons weren't as cookie cutter.