Deep Space 9 Superior

[the Fifth Race]

I seem to recall one more TNG appearance for Quark.. A Cameo role. The enterprise was looking for Lursa and B'Etor, I think, and they contacted Quark on DS9. It was a small cameo, his face was only on the viewscreen, but it was him.


Am I mis-remembering? I swear I remember this happening.

*edit*
I just checked IMDB... the episode was Birthright. So I think this means Quark and Riker and Q are the only characters who show up on TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Actually you are half right my friend (IMDb is regulary wrong). Quark did make an appearance as himself on TNG but it wasn't in the episode Birthright. Quark did appear as himself in the TNG episode Firstborn where Riker bribes information out of Quark on Deep Space 9 as to what the Duras sisters are doing and where they are. Quark explains that they were going to buy some mining equipment and dig up magnesite (which actually belongs to the Pakleds) in the Kalla system.

In Birthright - As Jean-Luc Picard and Beverly Crusher walk down Deep Space 9's Promenade, Beverly tells him that she is eager to visit Quark's holosuites. - So he was mentioned but never appeared ....... However there was a guest appearence by Dr. Bashir in Birthright: part I. - In the sickbay, Dr. Julian Bashir is studying a strange device. When Data arrives to assess the situation, Bashir explains that the device was discovered in the Gamma Quadrant, that he believes it to be some sort of medical imaging scanner, and that the Enterprise's sickbay systems can analyze it far better and faster than his limited resources on Deep Space 9 can.

Note: Background info -
Terry Farrell (Jadzia Dax) was to appear in this episode, but was busy filming the Deep Space Nine episode "Move Along Home". Siddig El Fadil appeared instead.

This is the Enterprise's second visit to Deep Space 9. The first was in the DS9 pilot "Emissary".

According to the stardate given for this episode, the events of this episode take place between DS9: "Q-Less" and DS9: "Dax".

Morn and Broik make brief appearances in this episode.

Watch for a blooper after Dr. Bashir and Data part ways in the corridor; Bashir can be seen wearing pink slippers; footwear that actors are required to wear in order to reduce the sound of their steps.

The Deep Space Nine theme is heard at the beginning of the episode.
This is the first time the DS9-style uniform is seen on TNG.

Great memory and a good call upinout!.

[upinout]

Actually you are half right my friend (IMDb is regulary wrong). Quark did make an appearance as himself on TNG but it wasn't in the episode Birthright. Quark did appear as himself in the TNG episode Firstborn where Riker bribes information out of Quark on Deep Space 9 as to what the Duras sisters are doing and where they are. Quark explains that they were going to buy some mining equipment and dig up magnesite (which actually belongs to the Pakleds) in the Kalla system.

I just finished watching the Birthright episodes and was starting to think I had halucinated Quark's appearance on TNG.

Terry Farrell (Jadzia Dax) was to appear in this episode, but was busy filming the Deep Space Nine episode "Move Along Home". Siddig El Fadil appeared instead.

Wow! I would have lloved that even more if if had been Dax there instead of Bashir, she was my favorite character on DS9.

[USS Defiant]

I just finished watching the Birthright episodes and was starting to think I had halucinated Quark's appearance on TNG.

I have done that a couple times before myself upinout. I could sear I saw something in a particular episode and when I discuss it with a friend or try to remember it specifically while posting a reply, I end up mixing episodes. It's easy to do with such a vast franchise like Star Trek.

Wow! I would have lloved that even more if if had been Dax there instead of Bashir, she was my favorite character on DS9.

I am also a big fan of Jadzia and even Ezri Dax. I sure would have loved to seen Michael Shank's play Tobin Dax on Enterprise, to bad TPTB pulled the plug on it.

There is a really good Star Trek: Deep Space Nine book titled The Lives of Dax. It has a picture of Jadzia and Ezri on the cover.

[Trek_Girl42]

I have done that a couple times before myself upinout. I could sear I saw something in a particular episode and when I discuss it with a friend or try to remember it specifically while posting a reply, I end up mixing episodes. It's easy to do with such a vast franchise like Star Trek.

I am also a big fan of Jadzia and even Ezri Dax. I sure would have loved to seen Michael Shank's play Tobin Dax on Enterprise, to bad TPTB pulled the plug on it.

There is a really good Star Trek: Deep Space Nine book titled The Lives of Dax. It has a picture of Jadzia and Ezri on the cover.

Tobin Dax was originally going to be on Enterprise??? With Michael Shanks playing the character! Wow, that would have been really neat.

[Missster.Freeman]

Of course, there was a Dax on board the Enterprise in The Undiscovered Country, but something didn't quite fit with this one. What was it again? The boots, yeah, the boots didn't quite fit...

I don't think the Dax in TUC had anything in common with the Trill Dax apart from their names.

As for Michael Shanks as a Trill on Enterprise - that would've been a fair trade, what with Connor Trinnear moving over to the Stargate franchise. Although, I think it was post Enterprise when he took on the role as Michael, afaik. I would love to see some Stargate regulars in Star Trek when the new series is commissioned.

[Whitestar]

When Roddenberry's Original Series was greenlit, he didn't have total control of the show, it was a toss-up of him and the NBC executives. In contrast, in Next Gen, Roddenberry was given total control due to the success of the Original Series. It was because of this that Next Gen was actually closer to his vision of Star Trek. Many fans were pleased with this aspect, however, it didn't mean that the show was any better because what resulted were caricatures who were true blue hero types, squeaky clean characters who could never do no wrong. The problem with this is that the majority of the characters were never really well developed because there was no interpersonal conflict. As a result, they weren't fleshed out individuals that we could relate to and this was a waste because the writers had plenty of opportunities to do this during run of Next Gen seven seasons. Based on this evidence, it seems that the NBC executives were wise in preventing Roddenberry from having total control during the Original Series stint. Which means the Original Series did featured interpersonal conflict such as the love and hate relationship of Spock and McCoy. This is not to say that all the characters of the Original Series were developed, they weren't, but they just seemed somewhat more real to me. Kirk was a womanizer space cowboy captain, whose ego was writing checks his body couldn't cash, but overall, he was a decent man.

There was also bigotry in the Original Series and movies as well, particularly in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when Kirk initially didn't want a peace treaty with the Klingons and would prefer to left them to their fate. This is was because his only son was killed by a Klingon and was blinded by his hatred for them. Not surpisingly, Roddenberry didn't like Star Trek VI because he hated the notion of Captain Kirk and crew being a bunch of biots, despite playing a pivotal role in the peace treaty between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Thus, in retrospect, the Original Series is perhaps far more realistic, believable, and grittier world than the idyllic, fluffy-wuffy, sterile, and stale era of Next Gen. And don't get me started on Voyager and Enterprise. The only sequel series to come close to the Original Series was Deep Space Nine. Both featured interpersonal conflict and flawed characters. As I mentioned earlier, the Original Series had the love and hate relationship of Spock and McCoy. In Deep Space Nine, it was Quark and Odo. These characters had their differences between them, but they also liked and respected each other as well.

Another gripe I have on Next Gen is when Starfleet began to include families and children on board the Enterprise D. What kind of idiots deliberately put children in danger on an exploration/pseudo-military starship?!? Space travel is a very dangerous business and its not a place for children to grow up in. I recalled an episode during the show's second season episode, "Contagion", where the Enterprise encounters its sister ship, the Yamato that explodes due to an alien computer virus, killing everyone on board, including the families and children. I was appalled by this episode and came to the conclusion that Starfleet doesn't give a hoot about its people and you can blame Roddenberry for that. Not only did it put Starfleet (and Roddenberry) in a bad light, but the idea of including children on a starship actually lacked the sense of the swashbuckling adventure that the Original Series had. For those who argue that the Original Series is inferior due to is low budget and campy overtone, and balking at Kirk whenever he violated the Prime Directive on countless occasions, you have to give the Starfleet/Federation (and the NBC executives) some credit for having the good sense for not including families on board Starfleet ships. One of the Enterprise crew members, Riker, I think, who said that the reason why the Federation has families on their ships is because the Enterprise was mostly a science/exploration vessel, (although its vast amount of weapons seem to imply the opposite). Even the pathetic Ferengi were appalled at the notion of the Federation/Starfleet bringin families onto their ships. What was Roddenberry smoking when he came up with this stupid idea?!? The writers attempted many ways to get the families and children off the ship, but Rodddenberry wouldn't have it. Apparently, this was his way of showing that Trek could be kind to familes and children, but so far, everything he's done suggest the opposite.

However, when Roddenberry passed away and Rick Berman took over, things began to improve. There was conflict (even though it came from an external source like the Borg, for instance, rather from within) and somewhat more character development for the secondary regulars.

As for the Prime Directive, this principle has always struck not just stupid, but inherently immoral too. If a race is dying out, and you have the means to save them and do not, that's immoral. If you have the chance to end a horrible cultural practice like Suttee or Child Sacrifice, and do not, then you become complicit in the murders. If you have the ability to end a famine or save billions of lives by knocking over some alien Adolph Hitler BEFORE he invades some alien Sudetenland, but don't, those deaths hang on your head.

But the worst part was the ever increasing use of technobabble. It was a vain attempt to ignore the manner in which real technical people speak, and it mutilates real science in an attempt to lend credibility to its plot points, which leads naive Star Trek fans to believe that much of this nonsense is actually based on real science. Here is an example of how Geordi's lame technobabble explanation is put to use by the Next Gen writers when they attempted to create futuristic terminology just for the sake of confusing us viewers:

Geordi: "We are currently monitoring a significant decrease in the electrostatic potential across the power coupling terminals on the secondary electron conduit."

Now here is Scotty's technobabble explanation:

Scotty: "Cap'tain! Scotty here. I don't know how much longer I canna hold it together!"

Even in Apollo 13 flick Jim Lovell's technobabble is kept within acceptable limits:

Lowell: "We have a main bus B undervolt."

See? Seven words, and he's done. Less is more. The Next Gen version of the dialogue wastes words, and if you hear something like that over the radio, the excessive word count actually makes it harder to understand what is going on. The human brain responds best to the most simplistic method of relaying a piece of information, which is one of the reasons that technical people quickly distill technical concepts into short forms, abbreviations, slang, and acronyms. Deep Space Nine was also plagued with technobabble, but Voyager wins hands down in that department. Many fans have complained about the dreaded technobabble to the writers and producers, but in their defense, they responded by stating that Rick Berman likes the technobabble.

No wonder the recent incarnations of Trek are loaded with techno jargon. The Original Series gets another point for not including technobabble into its stories. Its funny, when it came to producing the Next Gen flicks, Berman went out of his way to "dumb-down" them so he could make them accessible to a larger audience by providing idiotic storylines (although First Contact is perhaps the best Next Gen flick to date) and yet, he didn't bother to eliminate awful technobabble, which should have been the first thing he should have eliminated!

While its a good thing that Berman has stepped down as the head honcho for Trek, he should have done so many years ago. True, he's not currently the most popular guy in Paramount, considering the recent lackluster performance of Insurrection and Nemesis, and the shows Voyager and Enterprise, but he also deserves some credit for taking over the reins from Roddenberry and making it better than it was originally conceived. But his crowning achievement have been the aforementioned First Contact flick and the Deep Space Nine show. So, for the best Star Trek series the award goes to Deep Space Nine with the Original Series coming in second.

Currently, J.J. Abrams is taking over the film franchise, but if his movie does well, I wouldn't be a bit surprise if Paramount lets him take over the TV franchise as well, considering his successful track record with creating shows such as Felicity and Lost. Now, I don't really know much about Mr. Abrams, but all the things I've been hearing about him makes me think that he may be the one to breathe new life into Star Trek lore. If Abrams can create a solid storyline with flawed, believeable characters, including no technobabble, then Star Trek may yet live long and prosper.

[the Fifth Race]

Tobin Dax was originally going to be on Enterprise??? With Michael Shanks playing the character! Wow, that would have been really neat.

How cool would that have been!. Originally the character of Tobin Dax (who was the second Trill Host of the Dax symbiont) was going to be part of the Enterprise crew on ENT. Michael Shanks apparently tried out for the part and nailed it. Word leaked out and a ton of Shanks fans got obviously excited Then for no explained reason, TPTB changed there mind about adding him at the last second. Word was that the already cash strapped ENT had to cut its budget before they even shot the premiere episode.

Tobin Dax was a noted engineer and mathematician in Trill history. Tobin was the second host of the Dax symbiont. Tobin had a keen scientific mind, but was timid and shy in social situations. He had several children, but had a hard time disciplining them. Tobin also dabbled in botany and sleight-of-hand magic. He also devised his own proof of Fermat's last theorem. Michael Shanks would have been perfect as Tobin Dax!.

Of course, there was a Dax on board the Enterprise in The Undiscovered Country, but something didn't quite fit with this one. What was it again? The boots, yeah, the boots didn't quite fit...
I don't think the Dax in TUC had anything in common with the Trill Dax apart from their names.

LOL - the boots don't fit, must acquit great call brother MF. You are right, that Dax had nothing to do with the Trill symbiont.

As for Michael Shanks as a Trill on Enterprise - that would've been a fair trade, what with Connor Trinnear moving over to the Stargate franchise. Although, I think it was post Enterprise when he took on the role as Michael, afaik. I would love to see some Stargate regulars in Star Trek when the new series is commissioned.

A fair trade indeed, Conner Trinnear was one of the bright spots of ENT and Michael Shanks is just plain brilliant.

The Stargate franchise would be a great place to start when looking for solid scifi actors to play roles.

[the Fifth Race]

There was also bigotry in the Original Series and movies as well, particularly in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when Kirk initially didn't want a peace treaty with the Klingons and would prefer to left them to their fate. This is was because his only son was killed by a Klingon and was blinded by his hatred for them. Not surpisingly, Roddenberry didn't like Star Trek VI because he hated the notion of Captain Kirk and crew being a bunch of biots, despite playing a pivotal role in the peace treaty between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Thus, in retrospect, the Original Series is perhaps far more realistic, believable, and grittier world than the idyllic, fluffy-wuffy, sterile, and stale era of Next Gen. And don't get me started on Voyager and Enterprise. The only sequel series to come close to the Original Series was Deep Space Nine. Both featured interpersonal conflict and flawed characters. As I mentioned earlier, the Original Series had the love and hate relationship of Spock and McCoy. In Deep Space Nine, it was Quark and Odo. These characters had their differences between them, but they also liked and respected each other as well.

Well said and I agree. Personally it is easy for me to see the difference between Roddenberry's sort of flowery Star Trek and the edgier version we saw on DS9 and in movies like the Undiscovered Country. There are elements of both I like and don't like. But overall the best Trek came from non-Roddenberry written Trek.

Another gripe I have on Next Gen is when Starfleet began to include families and children on board the Enterprise D. What kind of idiots deliberately put children in danger on an exploration/pseudo-military starship?!? Space travel is a very dangerous business and its not a place for children to grow up in. I recalled an episode during the show's second season episode, "Contagion", where the Enterprise encounters its sister ship, the Yamato that explodes due to an alien computer virus, killing everyone on board, including the families and children. I was appalled by this episode and came to the conclusion that Starfleet doesn't give a hoot about its people and you can blame Roddenberry for that. Not only did it put Starfleet (and Roddenberry) in a bad light, but the idea of including children on a starship actually lacked the sense of the swashbuckling adventure that the Original Series had. For those who argue that the Original Series is inferior due to is low budget and campy overtone, and balking at Kirk whenever he violated the Prime Directive on countless occasions, you have to give the Starfleet/Federation (and the NBC executives) some credit for having the good sense for not including families on board Starfleet ships. One of the Enterprise crew members, Riker, I think, who said that the reason why the Federation has families on their ships is because the Enterprise was mostly a science/exploration vessel, (although its vast amount of weapons seem to imply the opposite). Even the pathetic Ferengi were appalled at the notion of the Federation/Starfleet bringin families onto their ships. What was Roddenberry smoking when he came up with this stupid idea?!? The writers attempted many ways to get the families and children off the ship, but Rodddenberry wouldn't have it. Apparently, this was his way of showing that Trek could be kind to familes and children, but so far, everything he's done suggest the opposite.

I also believe that putting families on a Starship, let alone the Flagship of the fleet was dumb. I can remember in season 1 of TNG - Picard saying he wasn't to happy with children and families living on the Enterprise, and that it was "an experiment" by Starfleet considering they were living in relatively peaceful times. I guess the whole (rather lame) idea for the Enterprises Saucer Section being able to separate and fly on its own was written in when they decided to add families to the ship.

As for the Prime Directive, this principle has always struck not just stupid, but inherently immoral too. If a race is dying out, and you have the means to save them and do not, that's immoral. If you have the chance to end a horrible cultural practice like Suttee or Child Sacrifice, and do not, then you become complicit in the murders. If you have the ability to end a famine or save billions of lives by knocking over some alien Adolph Hitler BEFORE he invades some alien Sudetenland, but don't, those deaths hang on your head.

I do not have that much of a problem with the Prime Directive, in that it made for some interesting storylines and personal conflicts. I did have a problem, like you mentioned Whitestar, about them not being able to save a dying planet or people just because they aren't technologically advanced or aware of any kind of alien presence. Maybe it was destiny that an alien race and ship came by and is capable of fixing a problem that potentially could harm others. The way the PD was written into Star Trek was ridiculous. I could have seen a PD for something like stopping people from Time Travel or supplying arms to a race or planet that could be used against innocents, or something like that, not the sweeping way it was originally written.

But the worst part was the ever increasing use of techno-babble. It was a vain attempt to ignore the manner in which real technical people speak, and it mutilates real science in an attempt to lend credibility to its plot points, which leads naive Star Trek fans to believe that much of this nonsense is actually based on real science. Here is an example of how Geordi's lame techno-babble explanation is put to use by the Next Gen writers when they attempted to create futuristic terminology just for the sake of confusing us

See? Seven words, and he's done. Less is more. The Next Gen version of the dialogue wastes words, and if you hear something like that over the radio, the excessive word count actually makes it harder to understand what is going on. The human brain responds best to the most simplistic method of relaying a piece of information, which is one of the reasons that technical people quickly distill technical concepts into short forms, abbreviations, slang, and acronyms. Deep Space Nine was also plagued with techno-babble, but Voyager wins hands down in that department. Many fans have complained about the dreaded techno-babble to the writers and producers, but in their defense, they responded by stating that Rick Berman likes the techno-babble.

I agree all the Trek series suffered from an over-use of techno-babble, none more than VOY and TNG. On DS9 you had O'Brien and Bashir as the two who were most guilty of it. Maybe Rick Berman liked using techno-babble to cover some of his blase writing.

While its a good thing that Berman has stepped down as the head honcho for Trek, he should have done so many years ago. True, he's not currently the most popular guy in Paramount, considering the recent lackluster performance of Insurrection and Nemesis, and the shows Voyager and Enterprise, but he also deserves some credit for taking over the reins from Roddenberry and making it better than it was originally conceived. But his crowning achievement have been the aforementioned First Contact flick and the Deep Space Nine show. So, for the best Star Trek series the award goes to Deep Space Nine with the Original Series coming in second.

Agreed!, I think if you polled most "smart Trek fans" (meaning Trek fans that have watched everything Trek more than a few times), they would agree that DS9 is the superior Trek series for the writing, acting, characters and storyline. I think most would also agree that First Contact and Undiscovered Country are the two best Trek movies. I certainly do.

Currently, J.J. Abrams is taking over the film franchise, but if his movie does well, I wouldn't be a bit surprise if Paramount lets him take over the TV franchise as well, considering his successful track record with creating shows such as Felicity and Lost. Now, I don't really know much about Mr. Abrams, but all the things I've been hearing about him makes me think that he may be the one to breathe new life into Star Trek lore. If Abrams can create a solid storyline with flawed, believeable characters, including no technobabble, then Star Trek may yet live long and prosper.

I think a lot of where the Trek franchise goes, depends a lot on how good the next Trek movie is. If it is mediocre and bombs like Nemesis did then we might not see another movie or television series for awhile. But if it is a good movie and people flock to see it like other past Trek movies, then we might start hearing talk about something on the television side.

The Star Trek franchise will never die. The legacy that the television series, movies and books have brought to the table is far to much of a gold mine for it to just disappear. The show and all its reincarnations remain hugely popular today. Long Live the Trek franchise.

Great post Whitestar, I hope everyone spends the time reading through it all. Don't be a stranger, even though this is the DS9 thread, we talk about everything Star Trek and scifi wise here. Plus this thread has the smartest Trek fans anywhere.

[Starbase]

In Deep Space Nine, it was Quark and Odo. These characters had their differences between them, but they also liked and respected each other as well.

I wholeheartedly agree, the dynamic between Odo and Quark was fantastic, it lasted all 7 seasons while remaining fresh, funny and sometimes touching.

DS9 had a few great buddy/buddy or mutual respect realtionships. Some of the ones I personally enioyed besides Quark/Odo are - Bashir/Garak, O'Brien/Bashir, Kira/Sisko just to name a few.

Another gripe I have on Next Gen is when Starfleet began to include families and children on board the Enterprise D. What kind of idiots deliberately put children in danger on an exploration/pseudo-military starship?!? Space travel is a very dangerous business and its not a place for children to grow up in. I recalled an episode during the show's second season episode, "Contagion", where the Enterprise encounters its sister ship, the Yamato that explodes due to an alien computer virus, killing everyone on board, including the families and children. I was appalled by this episode and came to the conclusion that Starfleet doesn't give a hoot about its people and you can blame Roddenberry for that. Not only did it put Starfleet (and Roddenberry) in a bad light, but the idea of including children on a starship actually lacked the sense of the swashbuckling adventure that the Original Series had. For those who argue that the Original Series is inferior due to is low budget and campy overtone, and balking at Kirk whenever he violated the Prime Directive on countless occasions, you have to give the Starfleet/Federation (and the NBC executives) some credit for having the good sense for not including families on board Starfleet ships. One of the Enterprise crew members, Riker, I think, who said that the reason why the Federation has families on their ships is because the Enterprise was mostly a science/exploration vessel, (although its vast amount of weapons seem to imply the opposite). Even the pathetic Ferengi were appalled at the notion of the Federation/Starfleet bringin families onto their ships. What was Roddenberry smoking when he came up with this stupid idea?!? The writers attempted many ways to get the families and children off the ship, but Rodddenberry wouldn't have it. Apparently, this was his way of showing that Trek could be kind to familes and children, but so far, everything he's done suggest the opposite.

You know the whole idea of a Starship, let alone the most powerful ship in the fleet carrying children and families seemed ridiculous from the very beginning. It seemed like TPTB really wanted to stress the idea of children and families in those first couple seasons of TNG. Then gradually they stppoed talking about it and it rarely ever was an issue. Lame idea!.

As for the Prime Directive, this principle has always struck not just stupid, but inherently immoral too. If a race is dying out, and you have the means to save them and do not, that's immoral. If you have the chance to end a horrible cultural practice like Suttee or Child Sacrifice, and do not, then you become complicit in the murders. If you have the ability to end a famine or save billions of lives by knocking over some alien Adolph Hitler BEFORE he invades some alien Sudetenland, but don't, those deaths hang on your head.

Count me as one who always thought the "Prime Directive" was a little to ridiculous. I mean, there should be rules and boundries that an entity that is as powerful as Starfleet must adhere to. I just think they over-did it on TNG and VOY. I do agree with what brother Fifth race suggested by mentioning Time Travel and Arms sales as the 2 main reasons a 'PD' is needed. - To ignore a dying planet or people just because the inhabitants are tecnologically challenged doesn't make a lot of sense.

But the worst part was the ever increasing use of technobabble. It was a vain attempt to ignore the manner in which real technical people speak, and it mutilates real science in an attempt to lend credibility to its plot points, which leads naive Star Trek fans to believe that much of this nonsense is actually based on real science.

The techno-babble didn't bother me to much until VOY came along, It got hard getting through some of those episodes.

I always found Geordi and O'Briens techno-babble a little more easy to take, I guess that had more to do with admiration for both characters..

While its a good thing that Berman has stepped down as the head honcho for Trek, he should have done so many years ago. True, he's not currently the most popular guy in Paramount, considering the recent lackluster performance of Insurrection and Nemesis, and the shows Voyager and Enterprise, but he also deserves some credit for taking over the reins from Roddenberry and making it better than it was originally conceived. But his crowning achievement have been the aforementioned First Contact flick and the Deep Space Nine show. So, for the best Star Trek series the award goes to Deep Space Nine with the Original Series coming in second. .

I rank DS9 as my favorite Trek series with TNG a close second, that being said I truly loved them all, including the animated series.

First Contact and Undiscovered Country are by far my 2 favorite Trek movies as well. I also really enjoy The Voyage Home, The Wrath of Kahn and Generations. Nemesis wasn't as bad the second I re-watched it on DVD, it's still not Trek at its best. I hope the next installment is much better than Nemesis was.

[Trek_Girl42]

I absolutely agree about this whole over-done technobabble nonsense. Imagine how much character development we could have gotten in place of all that! Hec, half the time three sentences of technobabble could easily be reduced to one, easier-to-understand sentence. I think that's one reason why I found Enterprise to be such a great introduction to Trek- the technobabble was far more limited. The first episode I saw(Divergence), very minimal technobabble, and with what was, they solved it with a great visual, straightforward solution that was very cool to watch (using the teather to climb between the ships at warp- my jaw dropped at that, I think that moment got me hooked on Trek. And the intreague of why one of the officers was supposed to be in the brig- I knew Trek's reputation for perfect people.), and the final technobabbbley solution to their problem was settled relatively quickly after the cool stuff was over. I think Enterprise was definitely trying to step away from the technobabble that came to plague trek, expecially in the third and fourth seasons. They really tried to reduce it/make it more visually interesting- thank you Manny Coto!

Trek needs to move towards the notion of problems being solved through human means/a human journey, that isn't just pressing a few buttons on the bridge, which I find to be very anti-climatic. DS9 was great at this- finding the emotional/human side to the stories and problems, and not always making it bright and shiny and morally perfect.

I really hope any future series/the movie picks up where Enterprise left off in that department, and does move towards more of a TOS approach- almost no technobabble.


As for Odo/Quark, I agree, I think it's one of the best relationships in all of Trek, along with Bashir/O'Brian. I loved the whole love/hate relationship, just wonderful and it never got old. It was especially great after teh episode where they were stuck on the planet climbing the mountain. Amazing.

With Bashir/O'Brian, I'm glad that their relationship took time to grow. Storyteller, while not a particularly great episode, did have some wonderful material for their characters. I loved seeing their original conflict grow to friendship.

Annnd movies (wow there's lots of fun stuff to respond to today!). My favourites would be First Contact, Undiscovered Country, Wrath of Khan, and Voyage Home, primarily because these were all great character movies, that actually hit a stronger emotional core, and were each unique within the Star Trek franchise. In First Contact we had Picrad facing his demons and Data facing his humanity, and the Borg were a conduit for this. Some amazing material came out of that, and I think that it was a movie that managed to satisfy every kind of Trek-fan out there. The best space battle in Trek, the technobbale for those who like it, the character story, the humour, more Trek history to chew on, etc. With Undiscovered Country, we got an emotional movie, that was all round just very well-written with a clear sense of direction (which was what the previous film lacked), great character stuff, very cool special effects, etc., Wrath of Khan wzs just plain amazing, this whole showdown between Kirk and Khan=classic. Great themes, again there was a lot of focus on CHARACTER. Voyage Home- fantastic environmental story that is SO much fun to watch. The story is really straightforward- find some whales in the 20th century, take them to the 23rd century, save the day. A really almost absurd concept that ended up being fantastic. And this film had easily the best humour in all of Trek. Nemesis I think is GREAT in concept. There were just some bad decisions made in the execution- it could easily have lost at least ten-fifteen minutes of redundant action sequences (that just seemed to go on, and on, and on) and put that time towards the character side of the story, which actually had an almost-solid foundation, but they didn't use it! There was so much more they could have done with Picard/Shinzon, and I think they were almost there, but didn't quite cut it. That being said, they did some fantastic stuff. I loved seeing the Romulan senate, that whole sequence at the beginning was fantastic. It was just like that had the right story for the movie, but kept the stuff they didn't need, and threw out the stuff they did. If that makes any sense.

Prime Directive: It's problematic. If there ever is a future series that goes beyond DS9, perhaps there should be a story about the re-writing of the Prime Directive. It's great in concept, but it just.....I think it closes off more story potential then it creates. Look at Voyager. The show kept using the Prime Directive as an excuse to not do anything interesting.

[the Fifth Race]

I absolutely agree about this whole over-done technobabble nonsense. Imagine how much character development we could have gotten in place of all that! Hec, half the time three sentences of technobabble could easily be reduced to one, easier-to-understand sentence. I think that's one reason why I found Enterprise to be such a great introduction to Trek- the technobabble was far more limited. The first episode I saw(Divergence), very minimal technobabble, and with what was, they solved it with a great visual, straightforward solution that was very cool to watch (using the teather to climb between the ships at warp- my jaw dropped at that, I think that moment got me hooked on Trek.

I agree, ENT was definetly the least of all the series to delve into mindless techno-babble. ENT had a fix it on the fly no nonsense approach that fit in perfectly with the fact that us humans were so new to warp space travel and building ships like the Enterprise.

Trek needs to move towards the notion of problems being solved through human means/a human journey, that isn't just pressing a few buttons on the bridge, which I find to be very anti-climatic. DS9 was great at this- finding the emotional/human side to the stories and problems, and not always making it bright and shiny and morally perfect.

I really hope any future series/the movie picks up where Enterprise left off in that department, and does move towards more of a TOS approach- almost no technobabble.

Agreed. Although if they do set the next Trek series in a time-line that happens after DS9 and VOY (24th century and beyond), you know they are going to throw a ton of new technology at us (which is a good thing) except it will probably mean a ton of new techno-babble. I can remember originally liking all the techno-babble talk we got on TNG to the point that I could have become a Starfleet engineer to go along with my mechanical engineering degree - but after a few seasons, I had enough.

With Undiscovered Country, we got an emotional movie, that was all round just very well-written with a clear sense of direction (which was what the previous film lacked), great character stuff, very cool special effects, etc., Wrath of Khan wzs just plain amazing, this whole showdown between Kirk and Khan=classic. Great themes, again there was a lot of focus on CHARACTER. Voyage Home- fantastic environmental story that is SO much fun to watch. The story is really straightforward- find some whales in the 20th century, take them to the 23rd century, save the day. A really almost absurd concept that ended up being fantastic. And this film had easily the best humour in all of Trek. Nemesis I think is GREAT in concept. There were just some bad decisions made in the execution- it could easily have lost at least ten-fifteen minutes of redundant action sequences (that just seemed to go on, and on, and on) and put that time towards the character side of the story, which actually had an almost-solid foundation, but they didn't use it! There was so much more they could have done with Picard/Shinzon, and I think they were almost there, but didn't quite cut it. That being said, they did some fantastic stuff. I loved seeing the Romulan senate, that whole sequence at the beginning was fantastic. It was just like that had the right story for the movie, but kept the stuff they didn't need, and threw out the stuff they did. If that makes any sense.

Like brother Starbase and yourself Lady Trek, I also really enjoy The Voyage Home. Like you mentioned, - Bar None, the funniest lines in Star Trek came out of that movie, plus it has that real adventure feel to it that some of the Trek movies lack. Seeing Kirk and crew interact with 20th century San Francisco and the way it was written and filmed was brilliant and very entertaining to watch. Plus, they filmed a sequence at Fishermans Wharf where they used part of our property my family business owns.

Prime Directive: It's problematic. If there ever is a future series that goes beyond DS9, perhaps there should be a story about the re-writing of the Prime Directive. It's great in concept, but it just.....I think it closes off more story potential then it creates. Look at Voyager. The show kept using the Prime Directive as an excuse to not do anything interesting.

The way the PD was used and then dis-regarded according to what suited Janeway was both annoying and ridiculous, it was almost like the writers had no idea what they were doing throughout the entire series.

I don't remember the episode, but I do remember Picard in a later season TNG episode talking about how the PD, the way it was currently written left a lot to be desired, and about how he had major issues with some of it. Then it was discussed about how Starfleet gathers all there great minds together every 50 years or so to re-write and update the PD. Hopefully that will play into any Trek series set further in the future.

Great post as usual Lady Trek. You gave a lot of great inside info into the way you view Star Trek, good stuff!.

[Whitestar]

Great post Whitestar, I hope everyone spends the time reading through it all. Don't be a stranger, even though this is the DS9 thread, we talk about everything Star Trek and scifi wise here. Plus this thread has the smartest Trek fans anywhere.

Actually, I believe I posted another thread in the Star Trek category, but I can't remember the topic. Anyway, I intend to post more topics on Star Trek!

[USS Defiant]

Season 1 of DS9:
Move Along Home
Quark cheats the first visitors from the Gamma Quadrant in a game of Dabo, so the aliens decide to give Quark a lesson in fair play with a game that places Sisko, Kira, Dax, and Bashir in the middle of a surreal fantasy situation as the players. In order to see the DS9 officers to safety, Quark must play the game through - gambling with lives instead of money.

There is one big problem with "Move Along Home," and it's that the premise is very, very far-fetched. It just doesn't make much sense. The technology--something that allows the senior officers to become players in a game that Quark and the aliens are able to manipulate on a playing board, is never explained (which might be a good thing considering the alternative of technobabble). And it seems awfully convenient that the four players in this game would happen to be the senior officers. The alien "game" sets are impressive, and Carson's overhead camera angles and surreal imagery earn full marks for atmospherics. Rene Auberjonois turns in another strong performance as an urgent Odo, and some scenes early on between Sisko and his son work well. But Quark's overwrought "groveling scene" falls flat, as does the constant repetition by alien game master Falow, who says "Choose their path" and "Move along home!" way too many times in the course of the episode. The motivation for placing the four main characters in such apparent peril strains credulity, assuming it exists at all. A very handsomely produced and often entertaining show, but it bears little scrutiny. Overall this was a strange yet entertaining episode.

[Starbase]

Season 1 of DS9:
Move Along Home

As you have probably read in the episode synopsis, "Move Along Home" is about first contact with a new race from the gamma quadrant who make the journey to DS9 because they want to play games at Quark's bar.

I have some problems with this episode. The main one is that with one exception none of the characters get fleshed out by this episode. Odo is meanicing but rather useless (although his acting was solid as usual), Dr. Bashir is a spineless wimp (the writers didn't give any love to Bashir is S1). Major Kira is an angry hothead (she goes over-board to much in S1), Commander Sisko is a cool-under-fire Starfleet officer who would rather stand and die with his friends than leave them to die alone, Dax is the pretty woman who stereotypically falls down twists her ankle and O'Brien is nowhere to be seen, maybe he is off fixing something. The characterizaions in the episode are clearly are taken straight from the writer's guide and it is obvious that no attempt was made to add anything beyond the bare framework laid out by the producers when they first conceived the show

No sense of real menace or urgency exists within the "game" and when something does finally happen to one of the players, it happens so fast and is so random that you really don't have time to build up any apprehension. Overall, I find the idea of the game itself really senseless and stupid. Not one of the better episodes from S1.

[Trek_Girl42]

As you have probably read in the episode synopsis, "Move Along Home" is about first contact with a new race from the gamma quadrant who make the journey to DS9 because they want to play games at Quark's bar.

I have some problems with this episode. The main one is that with one exception none of the characters get fleshed out by this episode. Odo is meanicing but rather useless (although his acting was solid as usual), Dr. Bashir is a spineless wimp (the writers didn't give any love to Bashir is S1). Major Kira is an angry hothead (she goes over-board to much in S1), Commander Sisko is a cool-under-fire Starfleet officer who would rather stand and die with his friends than leave them to die alone, Dax is the pretty woman who stereotypically falls down twists her ankle and O'Brien is nowhere to be seen, maybe he is off fixing something. The characterizaions in the episode are clearly are taken straight from the writer's guide and it is obvious that no attempt was made to add anything beyond the bare framework laid out by the producers when they first conceived the show

No sense of real menace or urgency exists within the "game" and when something does finally happen to one of the players, it happens so fast and is so random that you really don't have time to build up any apprehension. Overall, I find the idea of the game itself really senseless and stupid. Not one of the better episodes from S1.

Ah ha.....this was my very first DS9 episode.....and it was a let-down. Thank goodness I knew that the series was going to get better.