Deep Space 9 Superior

[Starbase]

The Sword of Kahless
I have to say this is one of the Klingon episodes that I was talking about. Did not find it interesting at all. I guess Klingon episodes, like the Jaffa episodes, just turns me off. And another thing.. transporting the sword into space.. that was a priceless artifact! Space is HUGE! No one will ever find it again! Couldn't they have planted it on another planet and leave vague clues to its whereabouts so ONE DAY their people might find it again? Like they've found it this time? They just lost the most important symbol of their heritage there.

I also found this episode a little lacking, but like Fifth said it did give you a nice Klingon history lesson, and they did refer back to Kahless is later episodes so it did set that up.

Homefront
A very good conspiracy filled episode! While watching this I really thought it was The Changelings gaining a foothold on Earth. Of course we learn later that that wasn't the case, but it was a very real threat nonetheless.. and while facing it, Sisko learned fear can motivate people to do a lot of things; including himself. I like the scene where he was confronting his own father, he was getting so paranoid, like a lot of other people. I don't remember anyone else beside Sisko and Odo.. was there a B-plot involving the other casts?

This was one of the shining moments from season IV. I just love those Trrek episodes where Starfleet academy is invloved. I believe the whole changlings on Earth was the only theme on this episode.

Indiscretion
I only mention this episode because we were introduced to Ziyal! I liked her despite yet another ship made because of her. And we got to see a more 'human' side to Dukat. He made such a great villain for me because I was *beginning* to like him, because of this episode and a few others that follow that showed his character more in the grey area than black. I like my Nemesis who may be evil but have different shades to their character.

We did get a brief glimpse of a human side to DuKat but it sure didn't last long. Ziyal was an intriguing character that got used by her father (DuKat0 to get closer to Kira. The whole Garek/Ziyal arc was great stuff!.

[Missster.Freeman]

Not got much to say at the minute. Season 4 is a bit vague for me, the only episode I remember is "Hippocratic Oath." For now, I'm quite happy to just read away.

[mikepbr549]

I am amazed that there are those that see DS9 as anything but a joke when compared to the original ST and TNG.

The storylines were all over the place and they managed to undermine alot of what made the Star Trek legacy what it was.

Their writer with the blue goatie (forget his name) had some really strange ideas/disagreements with the majority of the original TNG staff.

HIS vision of the future was filled with chaos and betrayal. The worst in humanity in the future portrayed weekly on the TV screen was his dream.

For example, I remember Picard explaining in First Contact that people from his timeline had no need for money and that it was all about working together to learn and grow as a race.

Then by contrast , we have to endure Quark and all the other assinine characters pursuing their greed and deceiving/cheating anyone for personal gain.

I could go on and on about how ridiculous it became.

Alas, I am not alone becuase DS9 NEVER enjoyed the ratings or mainstream poplularity of the other two shows. It was primarily viewed by Trekkies who had no other Trek to watch at the time. In retrospect, this might have proven to be a good time for thos folks to get out the house more, maybe catch a "real" Star Trek movie on the big screen, or find a different hobby altogether.

There is no question DS9 would have been a complete flop on the big screen.

I'm glad they ended it in the way they did, with no hope for a sequel.

DS9 superior?

Whatever!

[Anubis69]

Alas, I am not alone becuase DS9 NEVER enjoyed the ratings or mainstream poplularity of the other two shows. It was primarily viewed by Trekkies who had no other Trek to watch at the time. In retrospect, this might have proven to be a good time for thos folks to get out the house more, maybe catch a "real" Star Trek movie on the big screen, or find a different hobby altogether.

TBH, i disagree with a lot of what you say. You're right about one thing though, DS9 didn't enjoy the ratings of TNG, but it was the most critically acclaimed... it tackled harder issues, provided a more realistic world etc.

HIS vision of the future was filled with chaos and betrayal. The worst in humanity in the future portrayed weekly on the TV screen was his dream.

With regards to that, i know TNG was all about how great humans are in the future, about how they've learned from past mistakes. But seriously, in RL that would never happen. It's pretty naive to think a utopian society is a possible reality in the future. DS9 presented us with a world where everyone believed this utopian society did everything by the book, lawfully and always had the moral high ground. Obviously it would never be the case. Humans are too fickle and greedy. I, for one, thought the section 31 storyline was one of the best ways of showing this.

Then by contrast , we have to endure Quark and all the other assinine characters pursuing their greed and deceiving/cheating anyone for personal gain.

The ferengi in general were supposed to represent present day humans. ("Hu-mons" ) IMO, they did so quite accurately.

We've discussed a fair bit of Trek in this thread, if you wanna read through it (i'd imagine you wouldn't, t'is a bit long) you'd see reasons why a lot of people do love it. Characterisation is a main one. I'd say that no Trek has come close to rivalling DS9's characterisation. In the end, there were few one-dimensional characters, even in the vast number of recurring characters.

(sorry about the length btw, got carried away....)

EDIT: Yeah, welcome to the forum.....

[Missster.Freeman]

Hey, welcome to the Forums mikepbr549. Cool. ALL opinions are appreciated.

edit: Nice response Anubis.

[mikepbr549]

With regards to that, i know TNG was all about how great humans are in the future, about how they've learned from past mistakes.

Exactly.

The entire concept of the ORIGINAL Star Trek and TNG were consistent in that regard (i.e., money obselete, self discipline, sacrifice for the greater good, etc.). IMO, one of the reason for their phenomonal success was based on THAT hope for the future of mankind. This is very similar to what originally hooked many viewers on Stargate.....mankind out there trying to learn, adapt and survive against races with far superior technology and experience.

By THOSE standards, DS9 was an hypocrisy. IMO, DS9 attempted to take the basis of what made Star Trek so unique, and turned it into a western series in space.

Even with Wharf, O'brien as regular characters, guest appearances from Q, Loxana (sp?) Troi, Ryker, Vash, etc. it just couldn't cut the mustard when compared to its predecessors.

All comes down to viewer taste I suppose.

Just my opinion, although I must say based on the following(s) of the shows, I am probably in the majority.

[the Fifth Race]

TBH, i disagree with a lot of what you say. You're right about one thing though, DS9 didn't enjoy the ratings of TNG, but it was the most critically acclaimed... it tackled harder issues, provided a more realistic world etc.

DS9 was definitely more critically acclaimed than any other ST series. TV Guide maintains that DS9 and the new BSG are the best TV scifi series ever. Take that for what its worth?.

With regards to that, i know TNG was all about how great humans are in the future, about how they've learned from past mistakes. But seriously, in RL that would never happen. It's pretty naive to think a utopian society is a possible reality in the future. DS9 presented us with a world where everyone believed this utopian society did everything by the book, lawfully and always had the moral high ground. Obviously it would never be the case. Humans are too fickle and greedy. I, for one, thought the section 31 storyline was one of the best ways of showing this.

That was one of the very few thing that buggs me about TNG, they portrayed humans as having the perfect society on Earth and within the Federation, IMHO way to flowery to be believed. The Section 31 storyline was one of the best in any Trek series!.

The ferengi in general were supposed to represent present day humans. ("Hu-mons" ) IMO, they did so quite accurately.

The Ferengi portrayed in DS9 were explored in a lot more depth and Quark was an amazing character!

We've discussed a fair bit of Trek in this thread, if you wanna read through it (i'd imagine you wouldn't, t'is a bit long) you'd see reasons why a lot of people do love it. Characterisation is a main one. I'd say that no Trek has come close to rivalling DS9's characterisation. In the end, there were few one-dimensional characters, even in the vast number of recurring characters.

Everyone is entitled to there opinion!, and I respect them all even if I do not agree, and I encourage any debate about the validity or how likable DS9 was compared to any Trek series on this thread. Like brother Anubis stated, read through the thread and you will realize that us DS9 fans are pretty Trek savy and IMHO are the best and smartest Trek fans out there!

[Starbase]

I am amazed that there are those that see DS9 as anything but a joke when compared to the original ST and TNG.

Thats why this thread has the most replies and views by far! and is the only rated (5 stars) Trek thread on GW.

The storylines were all over the place and they managed to undermine alot of what made the Star Trek legacy what it was.

LOL, legacy? DS9 expanded and broadened the whole Trek legacy by finally producing something unique compared to TOS and TNG.

Their writer with the blue goatie (forget his name) had some really strange ideas/disagreements with the majority of the original TNG staff.

So what, that's a matter of your opinion, IMO the TNG writers were a bunch of hacks compared the DS9 writers and storylines.

HIS vision of the future was filled with chaos and betrayal. The worst in humanity in the future portrayed weekly on the TV screen was his dream.

Anotherwords he protrayed a more realistic view of humanity other than the flowery stuff we got on TNG, IMO that is what made DS9 unique and better!.

For example, I remember Picard explaining in First Contact that people from his timeline had no need for money and that it was all about working together to learn and grow as a race.

Then by contrast , we have to endure Quark and all the other assinine characters pursuing their greed and deceiving/cheating anyone for personal gain.

Picard=human, Quark=Ferengi, if anything the Ferengi portrayed on DS9 were more human and had a lot more character than those idiot Ferengi on TNG

It was primarily viewed by Trekkies who had no other Trek to watch at the time. In retrospect, this might have proven to be a good time for thos folks to get out the house more, maybe catch a "real" Star Trek movie on the big screen, or find a different hobby altogether.

LOL, IMHO your arguements are flawed, with all due repect maybe if you had a little imagination you would have understood DS9 and seen it for how superior it was.

DS9 superior?
Whatever!

Mikes opinion?
Whatever!

[mikepbr549]

Picard=human, Quark=Ferengi, if anything the Ferengi portrayed on DS9 were more human and had a lot more character than those idiot Ferengi on TNG.

Indeed. The Ferengi on DS9 were more like many humans today. I want the aliens to be alien. Not human. BTW, the wholE "rules of acquisition" thing got very old very fast. Entire episodes were based on that.

And what about that holodeck baseball game? IMO, probably the worst episode of any ST servies - EVER!

Patrick Stewart can act circles around Avery Brookes. How many major motion pictures has Brookes starred in lately. Stewart is EVERYWHERE. Maybe Stewart can get Brookes a guest appearance in an upcoming X-Men movie. The bottom line is DS9 would have flopped on the big screen - period. When the series ended, it was past time. TNG was still at its peak in terms of ratings when they decided to end the series and take it to the movie theatres. Absolutely no valid comparison to be made, except by the most blindly loyal DS9 fans.

So much has already been said, I just wanna express my sadness to the fact that so many people don't seem to realize what TOS and TNG were all about. TNG just had a special way of presenting everything. It's hard to explain... If you want pure space action, look elsewhere. The character interaction, the personalities, it all was shockingly lacking in DS9.

I just don't see how anyone can use the adjective superior to describe DS9 in comparison with the actual Star Trek serie(s).

But, hey I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for your time.

JMHO.

[Starbase]

Indeed. The Ferengi on DS9 were more like many humans today. I want the aliens to be alien. Not human. BTW, the wholE "rules of acquisition" thing got very old very fast. Entire episodes were based on that.

I think Quark acted more human like to gain more business (in true Ferengi fashion) considering his bar was on a Federation run station

And what about that holodeck baseball game? IMO, probably the worst episode

LOL, I agree, not DS9 at its best, but hey they wore my teams uniform (San Francisco Giants) in that episode

Patrick Stewart can act circles around Avery Brookes. How many major motion pictures has Brookes starred in lately. Stewart is EVERYWHERE. Maybe Stewart can get Brookes a guest appearance in an upcoming X-Men movie. The bottom line is DS9 would have flopped on the big screen - period. When the series ended, it was past time. TNG was still at its peak in terms of ratings when they decided to end the series and take it to the movie theatres. Absolutely no valid comparison to be made, except by the most blindly loyal DS9 fans.

IMHO Picard was and is the best Trek captain of them all, Sisko was rather mundane the first few seasons but by the time the Dominion war started he was golden!
The series ended with the war over and everyone moving on so a big screen movie isn't anything I or other DS9 fans would have wanted.
I don't think anyone has touted that DS9 was ever going to be a big screen movie?, not sure who you are arguing with about that one.

So much has already been said, I just wanna express my sadness to the fact that so many people don't seem to realize what TOS and TNG were all about. TNG just had a special way of presenting everything. It's hard to explain... If you want pure space action, look elsewhere. The character interaction, the personalities, it all was shockingly lacking in DS9.

Look Mike I loved TNG, it is my second favorite Trek series and I only like DS9 slightly better. This thread is not here to put down any other Trek series. My good friend brother Fifth Race (David) titled this thread DS9 superior to get attention and show his love for the series. I can tell you that he loves TNG almost as much as DS9. We both own all seasons of all Trek series on DVD and regulary watch DS9 and TNG the most.

I did not mean to come across as harsh or to put you down mike, I respect the fact that you love TNG and TOS so much.

TNG was a superior show like DS9 IMO, those two are a cut above them all!.

[the Fifth Race]

I started and titled this thread DS9 superior because I viewed DS9 and all Trek series as superior to any other scifi series. I did not mean to put down or suggest it was superior to TNG. And like brother Starbase suggested mike, I think TNG is as good if not better than any scifi series!. I rank TNG and DS9 as my two all-time favorite series of any scifi genre show (Stargate is a close third to those two )

As far as a full length motion picture DS9 movie, there was nothing there for them to make one. Like Starbase said the series ended with everyone moving on and Dominion defeated.

[mikepbr549]

I apologize for getting carried away there guys.

I didn't watch DS9 until it was in syndication. SpikeTV makes it easy to follow the entire series by airing so many eps consecutively.

I have now watched DS9 from start to finish (still a star trek series) and so many times found myself thinking ...oh man, I miss TNG, this is just not the same. The war with the Dominion was absolutely DS9 at its best. (I found it very difficult to sit through some of those Ferengi eps). I also could have lived without Sisko being the emissary. To me, there was almost an intended spiritual aspect being thrown in that I don't ever recall in other series. In fact, the closest thing I can remember was from time to time Picard would be mistaken as a God and had to somehow make it right (Federation rules, ie. the prime directive). The whole prophet thing seemed a bit too religious and not something based on science. Maybe I am just nitpicking.

I guess it just hit a nerve to read the suggestion that somehow DS9 was superior.

As for me, it's just not the kind of Star Trek I fell in love with as a child, but I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Instead I was just offering a different opinion. Sci Fi shows are great. Wished we had more. My wife thinks I'm nuts b/c of my tv habits, but then again, what does she know? One her favorite shows is Dr. Phil!

Again, sorry about interrupting your DS9 discussions.

[the Fifth Race]

I apologize for getting carried away there guys.

Not necessary mike, I am glad I had the chance to clarify.

I have now watched DS9 from start to finish (still a star trek series) and so many times found myself thinking ...oh man, I miss TNG, this is just not the same. The war with the Dominion was absolutely DS9 at its best. (I found it very difficult to sit through some of those Ferengi eps). I also could have lived without Sisko being the emissary. To me, there was almost an intended spiritual aspect being thrown in that I don't ever recall in other series. In fact, the closest thing I can remember was from time to time Picard would be mistaken as a God and had to somehow make it right (Federation rules, ie. the prime directive). The whole prophet thing seemed a bit too religious and not something based on science. Maybe I am just nitpicking.

After the first couple seasons of DS9 I found myself missing TNG as well!.
There did come a handful of great episodes involving the Emissary, but I could have lived without Sisko becoming the Emissary with whole religious angle. I liked how they tied in the Prophets with them being Gods to the Bajorans but just wormhole aliens to everyone else. God I hated Kai Winn!.

I guess it just hit a nerve to read the suggestion that somehow DS9 was superior.

I could tell my friend again I am glad we had the chance to explain ourselves.

As for me, it's just not the kind of Star Trek I fell in love with as a child, but I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Instead I was just offering a different opinion. Sci Fi shows are great. Wished we had more. My wife thinks I'm nuts b/c of my tv habits, but then again, what does she know? One her favorite shows is Dr. Phil!

No offense at all!, this thread has a great core group of Trek fans that love everything Trek, we regularly talk about anything Trek (movies or TV series).

I am divorced and my ex never could understand by love and devotion to scifi and especially Star Trek. She does like Stargate though.

Again, sorry about interrupting your DS9 discussions.

No problem my friend.

[kmiller1610]

The "superirority" of Trek, any kind of Trek rests on the viewer buying into the nobility and ideals of a futuristic race. If you lose that "buy in" the nobility and the broad acting and the constant "moralizing" can really get to you. I am struck with how pure that nobility seems to be and how it seems a bit cardboard when compared to other, more recent Sci Fi series. The real struggle to make moral decisions in Firefly makes it interesting and refreshing. Yes, they are the good guys, sort of, some of the time..... Stargate is in constant conflict with trying to make moral decisions while dealing with renegade branches of government (NID)... etc.

One of the places where Trek: TOS was superior is that people were defined by their excesses. Too much logic. Too much risk taking. Too much libido, too much compassion. The resolution of these conflicting impulses made the characters interesting. I personally think that this dynamic was lost after TOS, so that all the characters seems the same: noble, pure, driven to excellence, no consistent struggles or flaws. Yes, there are a lot of one time eps where a major character suddenly develops a flaw, but there seems to be an excess of nobility..... That can inspire or it can make you feel like you can't relate...

[Trek_Girl42]

DS9 was definitely more critically acclaimed than any other ST series. TV Guide maintains that DS9 and the new BSG are the best TV scifi series ever. Take that for what its worth?.

Which just goes to show that the executives at NBC are sitting on Gold with Ron Moore at their disposal.....I absolutly agree that the new BSG is the greatest Sci-fi show of all time, and I can see how DS9 might be almost as good.