Deep Space 9 Superior

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

I don't watch NCIS, Lt. Col. Davis, but I think you should watch less.

The sad thing was I think I was dreaming about watching it on TV.

[nx01a]

LOL, It's got to be better than CSI.

LOL, Colm Meany said it I didn't. As fellow Trek fans, we do owe a debt of gratitude to Berman for his early work, but that doesn't mean we have to like him today.

He did great work, but he also is partially responsible for frelling up Trek on my tv.

[nx01a]

The sad thing was I think I was dreaming about watching it on TV.

I'd laugh, but I think we've all had dreams like that.

[Jumper_One]

The sad thing was I think I was dreaming about watching it on TV.

I'd laugh, but I think we've all had dreams like that.

I certainly have

[./freelancer]

I just watched TW Exit Wounds, so you'll have to excuse me for being a bit late

Spoiler:

I think that was the best episode so far. Those were the best deaths I've seen on tv yet. I kept thinking "They'll find a way out of it, Toshiko will think of something." And when I realized Owen wouldn't make it it was just...wow. And I cried. I liked him a lot more after he died (the first time), and I was hoping they'd explore his character more. A Day In The Death is probably my second favorite episode. I too was kinda annoyed by the fact that he appearantly could bruise, and those other details, but then I though... "He's dead. And he's walking and talking. I think we're passed realism."

I'm not sure who compared this to Spooks, but anyway... I really hope TW doesn't turn out like that. I think about 2 main characters on average die every season in Spooks. And while that adds a really unique level to the show, it is a bit...overkill (sorry, couldn't resist )

Regarding how blatant TW is about gay men, which is displayed a lot more in season 2 (a certain scene with Gwen walking in on Jack and Ianto comes to mind ); I find it refreshing. I don't think I've actually seen another sci-fi show with a gay man.

Season 3; I would love to see Andy join TW, I really like him. It would be cool if Captain John joined too. Even if he doesn't, I really want to see more of him. I can't see him returning as a bad guy though. Not after this.

[Lieutenant Colonel Davis]

I'd laugh, but I think we've all had dreams like that.

Wouldn't that be cool if my dream really happend? That would be epic I guess.

[USS Defiant]

He did great work, but he also is partially responsible for frelling up Trek on my tv.

I wholeheartedly agree brother nx01a. Berman dropped the ball a couple times while doing the Trek thing.

I just watched TW Exit Wounds, so you'll have to excuse me for being a bit late

Spoiler:

I think that was the best episode so far. Those were the best deaths I've seen on tv yet. I kept thinking "They'll find a way out of it, Toshiko will think of something." And when I realized Owen wouldn't make it it was just...wow. And I cried. I liked him a lot more after he died (the first time), and I was hoping they'd explore his character more. A Day In The Death is probably my second favorite episode. I too was kinda annoyed by the fact that he appearantly could bruise, and those other details, but then I though... "He's dead. And he's walking and talking. I think we're passed realism."

I'm not sure who compared this to Spooks, but anyway... I really hope TW doesn't turn out like that. I think about 2 main characters on average die every season in Spooks. And while that adds a really unique level to the show, it is a bit...overkill (sorry, couldn't resist )

Regarding how blatant TW is about gay men, which is displayed a lot more in season 2 (a certain scene with Gwen walking in on Jack and Ianto comes to mind ); I find it refreshing. I don't think I've actually seen another sci-fi show with a gay man.

Season 3; I would love to see Andy join TW, I really like him. It would be cool if Captain John joined too. Even if he doesn't, I really want to see more of him. I can't see him returning as a bad guy though. Not after this.

Hey brother ./freelancer, better late than never. ....

Spoiler:

I was also very saddened by both deaths. I was just starting to warm up to Toshiko as a character, Owen is golden. It would have been interesting to see there relationship grow, I guess we will never know now.

They really did amp up the sex factor in season II. IMO it took away from some of the storylines by it being so in your face, but I guess that's what the TPTB are going for?. I wouldn't really call them "gay men" or gay women, they have all been portrayed as bi-sexual. They all definetly swing both ways.

[Trek_Girl42]

I wholeheartedly agree brother nx01a. Berman dropped the ball a couple times while doing the Trek thing.
Hey brother ./freelancer, better late than never. ....

Spoiler:

I was also very saddened by both deaths. I was just starting to warm up to Toshiko as a character, Owen is golden. It would have been interesting to see there relationship grow, I guess we will never know now.

They really did amp up the sex factor in season II. IMO it took away from some of the storylines by it being so in your face, but I guess that's what the TPTB are going for?. I wouldn't really call them "gay men" or gay women, they have all been portrayed as bi-sexual. They all definetly swing both ways.

I'd actually say the opposite.

Spoiler:

I thought they dialed down the sexuality to a decent level for the second series compared to the first, except for Jack/Ianto, which was strictly PG as far as I remember, visually anyway. If you grade sexual content involving same sex couples the same as het couples. Which lets face it, whoever determines the ratings of these things never will, at least in the near future. In series two we also had Jack/John make out once. Tosh/guy from the past. Gwen/Reese, which I hardly think counts. Martha flirted a bit but clearly stated that she had a boyfriend. And Owen tried to get with that woman from the bar and failed. Of course there was the usual innuendo, but that was definitely dialed down from series one (and better written in series two, not perfect, but a definite leap of improvement).

Vs. series one we had Gwen in some girl on girl action with the sex alien woman. That whole episode actually goes for a count. We had Owen in several gratuitous scenes with that woman from the past. Tosh with the alien woman. Gwen/Reese, which doesn't really count. Gwen's awful affair with Owen. Bikini-clad Cyberwoman. Jack/Ianto kissed once. And then there was a LOT more (really badly written) innuendo and sexual tension.

[nx01a]

Congrats on reaching the end! See how nice it is to go Spoiler Free! Spoilerfreelancer? Hmm.

I just watched TW Exit Wounds, so you'll have to excuse me for being a bit late

Spoiler:

I think that was the best episode so far. Those were the best deaths I've seen on tv yet. I kept thinking "They'll find a way out of it, Toshiko will think of something." And when I realized Owen wouldn't make it it was just...wow. And I cried. I liked him a lot more after he died (the first time), and I was hoping they'd explore his character more. A Day In The Death is probably my second favorite episode. HUG! HUUUUG! I was a bit miffed at the breaking and entering in the episode, I felt that it ruined the existential horror Owen was experiencing, but it did give him some reason to go on living, apart from the fact that he can't die. I too was kinda annoyed by the fact that he appearantly could bruise, and those other details, but then I though... "He's dead. And he's walking and talking. I think we're passed realism." Agreed. I just went with it, screw the details. Especially the whole 'He's talking but he can't do CPR?'

I'm not sure who compared this to Spooks ME!, but anyway... I really hope TW doesn't turn out like that. I think about 2 main characters on average die every season in Spooks. And while that adds a really unique level to the show, it is a bit...overkill (sorry, couldn't resist ) The realism of TV has always failed for me when I know the actors are lockin into 5/7 year contracts and won't die, especially when the ship is being taken to the Delta Quadrant and you're being probed by aliens, assimilated, sucked through interspatial vortices, abused by mind-sucking telepathic pitcher plants and whatnot on a weekly basis... Or hunting murderously omnisexual aliens. If you make me love a character and make me feel peril for them week after week, I'll get engrossed. I don't want them to die, obviously, but I love that realism.

Regarding how blatant TW is about gay men, which is displayed a lot more in season 2 (a certain scene with Gwen walking in on Jack and Ianto comes to mind ); I find it refreshing. I don't think I've actually seen another sci-fi show with a gay man. Gay men and black women: under-represented in sci-fi. Even Buffy had two hot Wiccans.

Season 3; I would love to see Andy join TW, I really like him. I'd like to see him join and burn out. He really WANTS to get in, show him what it's REALLY like. He may be a cop, but how strong will he be after being molested by his first slime monster? A VERY horny slime monster? It would be cool if Captain John joined too. Even if he doesn't, I really want to see more of him. I can't see him returning as a bad guy though. Not after this. Does no one remember Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang? Sigh. He IS a bad guy, even when he isn't under Gray's influence. I'd love to see him return as an anti-hero, making Eye Candy jealous.

[nx01a]

I wonder when Trek will finally tackle the taboo of queerness directly? I'm pretty sure it won't come from the same pens that gave us Transformers... Ah well, at least we have Dax and the Mirror Universe ladies.

I'd actually say the opposite.

Spoiler:

I thought they dialed down the sexuality to a decent level for the second series compared to the first, except for Jack/Ianto, which was strictly PG as far as I remember, visually anyway. If you grade sexual content involving same sex couples the same as het couples. Which lets face it, whoever determines the ratings of these things never will, at least in the near future. In series two we also had Jack/John make out once. Tosh/guy from the past. Gwen/Reese, which I hardly think counts. Martha flirted a bit but clearly stated that she had a boyfriend. And Owen tried to get with that woman from the bar and failed. Of course there was the usual innuendo, but that was definitely dialed down from series one (and better written in series two, not perfect, but a definite leap of improvement). Much better written. The lack of ridiculously excessive cursing was a +, as was not having flesh in my face every episode to prove that 'this is an adult show'.

Vs. series one we had Gwen in some girl on girl action with the sex alien woman. That whole episode actually goes for a count. "Look, luv, I'm gay..." *Sex follows* That one also featured perhaps the first time I've seen anyone masturbating on tv... Good thing?We had Owen in several gratuitous scenes with that woman from the past. Tosh with the alien woman. Gwen/Reese, which doesn't really count. Gwen's awful affair with Owen. Bikini-clad Cyberwoman. Jack/Ianto kissed once. And then there was a LOT more (really badly written) innuendo and sexual tension. You forgot Owen's alien Rohypnol-induced bisexual 3some.

[Trek_Girl42]

I wonder when Trek will finally tackle the taboo of queerness directly? I'm pretty sure it won't come from the same pens that gave us Transformers... Ah well, at least we have Dax and the Mirror Universe ladies.

Spoiler:

I thought they dialed down the sexuality to a decent level for the second series compared to the first, except for Jack/Ianto, which was strictly PG as far as I remember, visually anyway. If you grade sexual content involving same sex couples the same as het couples. Which lets face it, whoever determines the ratings of these things never will, at least in the near future. In series two we also had Jack/John make out once. Tosh/guy from the past. Gwen/Reese, which I hardly think counts. Martha flirted a bit but clearly stated that she had a boyfriend. And Owen tried to get with that woman from the bar and failed. Of course there was the usual innuendo, but that was definitely dialed down from series one (and better written in series two, not perfect, but a definite leap of improvement). Much better written. The lack of ridiculously excessive cursing was a +, as was not having flesh in my face every episode to prove that 'this is an adult show'. No kidding. Doctor Who was more mature than that. Glad to see in the second series they listened to fans (and hopefully had already drawn the same conclusions themselves) and set to fixing their mistakes- doesn't happen very often, very glad to see that it did.

Vs. series one we had Gwen in some girl on girl action with the sex alien woman. That whole episode actually goes for a count. "Look, luv, I'm gay..." *Sex follows* That one also featured perhaps the first time I've seen anyone masturbating on tv... Good thing? Ew. That was edited out of our airing, one of very few good choices CBC made in their edits..... We had Owen in several gratuitous scenes with that woman from the past. Tosh with the alien woman. Gwen/Reese, which doesn't really count. Gwen's awful affair with Owen. Bikini-clad Cyberwoman. Jack/Ianto kissed once. And then there was a LOT more (really badly written) innuendo and sexual tension. You forgot Owen's alien Rohypnol-induced bisexual 3some. Crap, I forgot that one. (blocked from memory?) That was absolutely awful.

It is sad that Trek didn't finally breach those last "taboo" subjects- Doctor Who has passed them now and it's a family show. When Trek was created to be something inclusive, well, it's a shame they haven't fully gotten there quite yet (they were far ahead in the beginning, obviously). There's still sort of the same thing going on with female characters in Trek- female characters were still outnumbered two (usually more) to one in every series- there's definitely something wrong with that ratio. That's something else that should change as well if we get another series.

Interestingly, looking at the Trek series, ratio of female (top billed) characters to male:
TOS: 1 to 6
TNG: 4 to 5 (one killed off, one on for only one season as an exchange for another female character, so aside from season one, it was 2 to 5. And both were very sidelined/written poorly.)
DS9: 3 to 7 (though technically 2 to 7- it's only 3 if you count both Dax actresses. Though Kira was easily one of the best written/portrayed characters in Trek, never mind the fact that she was a woman, so extra points. )
VOY: 4 to 5 (again, no more than 3 to 5 except for two or three eps as Kes and Seven were exchanged. Still, Voyager consistently had three female characters. Good for them! Now if only they had been written better. )
ENT: 2 to 5 (one was sidelined, and one was in a skin tight catsuit.....)

I'm seeing a bit of a sad trend here. Maybe this is something that needs to be the first issue addressed in Trek returns to television. This a future we're talking about, where things are supposedly equal, but it's not showing in the numbers.

[nx01a]

Black, white, asian, native american, male female, straight, bi-tri-omni-sexual... Still human. I want more aliens! I'd love to see a command staff with only 2 humans, one of whom is NOT the captain. And far less of a focus on aliens obsessed with human 20th C culture.

[Trek_Girl42]

Black, white, asian, native american, male female, straight, bi-tri-omni-sexual... Still human. I want more aliens! I'd love to see a command staff with only 2 humans, one of whom is NOT the captain. And far less of a focus on aliens obsessed with human 20th C culture.

I'd disagree with the alien captain- I think we do need a human captain for the audience to relate to. However I DO want to see alien captains of other ships, alien admirals, etc.

[Starbase]

Black, white, asian, native american, male female, straight, bi-tri-omni-sexual... Still human.

Agreed!

I want more aliens! I'd love to see a command staff with only 2 humans, one of whom is NOT the captain. And far less of a focus on aliens obsessed with human 20th C culture.

I'm with you there as well nx01a. Trek does the alien thing second to none. One of the many things I truly love about Trek is the alien/human interactions, especially between Starfleet members. Watching an alien stuggle with human idiosyncrasies is priceless!.

There's still sort of the same thing going on with female characters in Trek- female characters were still outnumbered two (usually more) to one in every series- there's definitely something wrong with that ratio. That's something else that should change as well if we get another series.

I never even thought twice about the women to men ratio, black to white to asian ratio, sexual orientation ...etc... when it came Star Trek. I kind of figured that with Roddenberry's utopian type vision of Earth's future that is portrayed on Star Trek that really wasn't an issue. I'm still not sure it is. That being said I have NO problem what so ever with a female heavy crew or even an all female Starfleet crew, after-all lest we forget Captain Solok, commander of the USS T'Kumbra, a ship with an all-Vulcan crew.

How about we get a female lead to play the Dr. next time it goes through one those reconfigurations. After-all the good Dr. has no sexual gender.

[gopher65]

I disagree about Berman being a bad producer. I think he is a mediocre (at his *best* he hits mediocre) writer, but the studio execs don't let someone stay on as an executive producer for that long unless they have something good to offer. Maybe it is nothing we'll ever see (money management or something), but he has to be good at something.