Deep Space 9 Superior

[rien]

Ugh i think my brain has melted. My place of work was so dead today that I just spent the last 3 hours of my work shift just standing behind the till making up a crazy Harry Potter fanfic idea that involves Dr Doom, My Little Ponies, Londo's cloud city, Samuel L Jackson and genetically engineered velociraptors!

Anyhow getting back to DS9 i know you guys probably wont agree but Civil Defense is one of my favourite episodes its just so funny. There isnt any real character growth or important message to be imparted and it certainly doesnt add anything of value to the overall plot of the series. Its just an action packed race to shut down an old Cardassian security program before it blows up the station. The overall scenario is plausible yet everything that happens especially with the trapped Sisko, Jake and O'Brien and how they always find a viable solution just in the nick of time just seems way too convenient to be coincidence which is the only thing that bugs me about this episode and its a minor thing that i can easily ignore.
What happens with Odo and Quark stuck in the security office together and the guys stuck in ops is imho plain hilarious. Everything they do just makes things worse. Then when their trying to find a solution before the auto destruct finishes counting down and kills them all its like the actors were in a contest to see who could...talk...the...slowest! I think Marc Alaimo deserves bonus points for all the unnecessary pauses, hand motions and head nods that he manages to incorporate into his performance when they finally find a solution.
Particular highlights of the episode include Garak outing Dukats attraction to Kira. Right in front of Kira and everyone else. The interactions between Garak and Dukat are pretty good in this episode it adds a bit of backstory to their rivalry by bringing up Dukats dad as well as how Dukat tried to have Garak executed once. Also this is the first time Quark mentions his cousin Gaila who owns his own moon. Not a big moon mind you but enough to live on. (Also, and i know this may sound mean, but i kinda like when the random goldshirt gets vaporised by the replicator cannon thing simply cause i never noticed the guy was even there before that it was like hey were did he come from?)

While we were watching Meridian i casually mentioned to my mother how every time we watch an episode i post my thoughts on this thread and offered to include any of her thoughts. The conversation kinda went like this.

[Kira grabs a cup of coffee and sits down by Odo]

Me: So any thoughts or observations you would like me to include just let me know

Mum: .....Why do they always have such weird mugs?

Me: Err, its the future.

[Tiron shows up played by the wonderful Jeffrey Combs]

Me: That guy has a creepy voice

Mum: That guy has a creepy face.

Meridian is a good episode i like the set up of a planet that shifts between dimensions and a people that spend half their time as pure conciousness. I also like how the epsidoe isnt overrun by technobabble the diagnosis and cure for the planets predicament is pretty straightforward and simple and not really the focus of the episode. No that would be Dax falling in love. And Kira trying to avoid being made into the star of a pornographic holonovel by Quark. Now usually i dont like one episode romances they annoy me with their implausibility but this is Dax who is portrayed as one who gets around so its not really that out of character for her i suppose. That and for some implausible reason that i cannot account for i really like the romantic interest hes just such a nice guy. If i ever write a DS9 fanfic that features myself as a self insert marysue type character then i will include that guy to be my romantic interest. I just have to remember to cover myself in spots for him to count

Anyhow getting swiftly back on topic i like all the scenes with Kira and Odo. Especially the opening scene where she makes up that Odo is her lover to get rid of the creepy Tiron, who is played by the brilliant Jeffrey Combs, with Odo awkwardly playing along. Then after she walks off he just sits there and stares at his hand with a look on his face like hes thinking 'OMG she held my hand! I am never washing this hand again!'
I cant really think of much else to say about the actual episodes so will have to stop here before i end up rambling insensibly about what a cute couple Odo and Kira make. Cause they do make a cute couple. A seriously cute couple Though for some reason even though i love Kira/Odo i also quite like the character of Shakaar with Kira? I guess im just weird.

[Weyoun]

Ugh i think my brain has melted. My place of work was so dead today that I just spent the last 3 hours of my work shift just standing behind the till making up a crazy Harry Potter fanfic idea that involves Dr Doom, My Little Ponies, Londo's cloud city, Samuel L Jackson and genetically engineered velociraptors!

lolol

Spoiler:

Anyhow getting back to DS9 i know you guys probably wont agree but Civil Defense is one of my favourite episodes its just so funny. There isnt any real character growth or important message to be imparted and it certainly doesnt add anything of value to the overall plot of the series. Its just an action packed race to shut down an old Cardassian security program before it blows up the station. The overall scenario is plausible yet everything that happens especially with the trapped Sisko, Jake and O'Brien and how they always find a viable solution just in the nick of time just seems way too convenient to be coincidence which is the only thing that bugs me about this episode and its a minor thing that i can easily ignore.
What happens with Odo and Quark stuck in the security office together and the guys stuck in ops is imho plain hilarious. Everything they do just makes things worse. Then when their trying to find a solution before the auto destruct finishes counting down and kills them all its like the actors were in a contest to see who could...talk...the...slowest! I think Marc Alaimo deserves bonus points for all the unnecessary pauses, hand motions and head nods that he manages to incorporate into his performance when they finally find a solution.
Particular highlights of the episode include Garak outing Dukats attraction to Kira. Right in front of Kira and everyone else. The interactions between Garak and Dukat are pretty good in this episode it adds a bit of backstory to their rivalry by bringing up Dukats dad as well as how Dukat tried to have Garak executed once. Also this is the first time Quark mentions his cousin Gaila who owns his own moon. Not a big moon mind you but enough to live on. (Also, and i know this may sound mean, but i kinda like when the random goldshirt gets vaporised by the replicator cannon thing simply cause i never noticed the guy was even there before that it was like hey were did he come from?)

Excellent thoughts rien. I kind of like the season 3 episode Civil Defense, that being said, I do have quite a few problems with the story-line -- it's basically another Trek example of "computer goes berserk." The premise of an old program surfacing from nowhere is hard to swallow because any computer-literate person knows that you completely wipe all old software from a used storage device before putting your own software on. Are we supposed to believe that such a hazardous program went totally undetected by Starfleet when they took control of the station? Maybe the Cardassians are master computer programmers?

Granting the story this detail improves things slightly. The jeopardy premise is rather worn out (although this is the first time an auto-destruct has been armed on DS9). And structuring the story into three separate threads doesn't really work. Kira, Bashir, Garak and Dax try to regain control of Ops while Sisko, O'Brien and Jake try to escape a room they're trapped in by using MacGyver-esque resourcefulness.

The A- and B-stories alone may have worked okay with a little better pacing, but the writers also introduce a C-story with Odo and Quark trapped together in Odo's security office. Their role in the narrative has no dramatic purpose nor does it contribute to the advancement of the plot. The duo is used only as gratuitous comic relief and, unfortunately, scene after scene between them falls flat. Put simply, the three plots pull each other down because each interrupts the flow of the other (and, really, the C-story should have been scrapped altogether).

[the Fifth Race]

The jeopardy premise is rather worn out (although this is the first time an auto-destruct has been armed on DS9). And structuring the story into three separate threads doesn't really work. Kira, Bashir, Garak and Dax try to regain control of Ops while Sisko, O'Brien and Jake try to escape a room they're trapped in by using MacGyver-esque resourcefulness.

The A- and B-stories alone may have worked okay with a little better pacing, but the writers also introduce a C-story with Odo and Quark trapped together in Odo's security office. Their role in the narrative has no dramatic purpose nor does it contribute to the advancement of the plot. The duo is used only as gratuitous comic relief and, unfortunately, scene after scene between them falls flat. Put simply, the three plots pull each other down because each interrupts the flow of the other (and, really, the C-story should have been scrapped altogether).

Well put bropther Weyoun (and rien for that matter). I'm not the biggest fan of Civil Defense myself. For me the best parts of the episode involve Dukat (although did anyone notice that Dukat was channeling Capt. Kirk with his very slow and deliberate delivery of lines). A great touch is when he flips Sisko's baseball off the prefect's desk with his forefinger. And in the episode's best moment, he becomes a victim of wry irony when yet another fail-safe device locks him on the ticking time bomb with everyone else. Hilarious!

Another interesting part of "Civil Defense" is the bad blood between Garak and Dukat, who exchange insults and blather of the past through most of their scenes together. But just as with all Garak backstory, there is no backstory. It's just a lot of unexplained, half-hashed dialogue that may or may not be talked about in the future.

The conclusion waqs kind of kewl with one of those down-to-the-wire endings in which Sisko rewires the reactor core so it won't destroy the station. But there's nothing fresh about an ending where the hero saves the day with only five seconds left. It's been done too many times.

[the Fifth Race]

Spoiler:

What is there to say about Second Skin other than its amazing. Dont know whether you guys have noticed yet but episodes that focus on Kira always get great reviews from me since she is my favourite character in all of trek! Anyhow Second Skin sets up an interesting little mystery and manages to sustain it throughout the episode leading Kira, and also the viewers, to question her identity. What is truth and what is lie? It gets resolved eventually but not until the closing scene and even then the fate of the real Iliana Ghemor is left a mystery.
I really like this episode. There is not a lot of big showy science/political/space battles stuff happening its just good old character driven drama that dominates and drives the episode. And its the drama taking place within the confines of the Ghemor house that serves to dominate this episode simply because Nana Visitor is such a convincing actress you really believe the emotional/psycological turmoil that Kira is being subjected to in this episode as those around her try every method at their disposal to convince her that she is Iliana Ghemor. Also Lawrence Pressman does a great job as Tekeny Ghemor hes just such a nice guy even though you dont want Kira to be a Cardassian agent you end up secretly wishing she really was Iliana just so Tekeny wouldnt have to be so lonely and broken hearted at the end :'( The father/daughter relationship forged between these two characters is just so bittersweet
Other highlights in this episode include Garak, who gets to steal every scene he appears in not to mention some very good lines, and also Entek who is suitably creepy. Its a shame they killed him at the end as the rivalry with Garak that got teased could have been interesting to examine in later episodes. I particularly like how when Garak is saying (paraphrasing here) 'no doubt you will gain lotsa satisfaction from finding out how i was able to defy my exile' and Entek just nods agreement with an indulgent smile.

Rewatching this episode does make me wonder about Iliana. I really wish they could have resolved what happened to her.

Second Skin proves itself as an atypical drama when it could've been a complete failure. The writers crafted the story such that it appears to the audience the Cardassians might very well be telling the truth. While the episode is, in a way, a series of fabrications that try to convince us that it's going to completely rewrite Kira's backstory, it works because of its emotional sincerity. Sure, by the end we find out that, yes, the Cardassians were lying and, no, Kira isn't really a Cardassian. But the episode doesn't really rely on the identity gag because it reveals true substance as it unfolds.

It's a terrific story with some great dramatic moments, with the added bonus of a satisfying conclusion - a refreshing cheat-free venture into Cardassian political problems. Although the episode spends plenty of time trying to convince us Kira is a Cardassian, and does so quite well by offering so much indicative evidence that even I was having brief second thoughts - the heart of the episode really lies in the characters.

It's really about how Kira finally accepts a lie after having it drilled into her head over and over. It also gives Kira a chance to develop a friendship with Cardassian Ghemor (Lawrence Pressman), who adamantly claims he's her father. The scenes between Kira and Ghemor are right on target, because they're both victims of the same deception (the underhanded plotting by Cardassian Entek to expose Ghemor as a traitor trying to bring change to Cardassian society).

[SaberBlade]

I think what makes 'Second Skin' such an excellent episode is Ghemor.

Episodes that involve the secret real identity, such as later in the series with Bashir and S31, are more about convincing the character they are someone else by laying out evidence and hoping they'll just give whatever information the villain wants. Lawrence Pressman's performance as Ghemor was brilliant, because Entek was the typical "here is the proof, accept it" character while Ghemor was more interested in emotionally connecting with Kira. It because Ghemor is consistently acting for the best welfare of his daughter that makes it believe as it never seems like they're playing Good Cop/Bad Cop.

[Linda06]

Now I definitely want to meet your Mother, Rien Better yet I wanna watch DS9 with you guys I liked Civil Defence. I loved the part where Dukat tries to beam back to his ship and his computer turns against him

I also loved Ghemor. It was a shame what they tried to do to him. Who would have thought that Kira would be friends with a Cardassian when DS9 first started.

[rien]

It's really about how Kira finally accepts a lie after having it drilled into her head over and over. It also gives Kira a chance to develop a friendship with Cardassian Ghemor (Lawrence Pressman), who adamantly claims he's her father. The scenes between Kira and Ghemor are right on target, because they're both victims of the same deception (the underhanded plotting by Cardassian Entek to expose Ghemor as a traitor trying to bring change to Cardassian society).

Thats a great analysis of the episode and i completely agree except for that line that i bolded about Kira accepting the lie. I dont think Kira ever fully accepts the claims of Entek and Ghemor that she is Cardassian. I believe that watching Iliana's message, as well as the dawning realisation that Ghemor at least is sincere, causes her to question her own identity cause up til then she had steadfastly refused to believe that there could be any truth to their claims. But even after watching the message, when Ghemor is trying to sneak her away, despite her usually fiery spirit having seemingly been extinguished she still hasnt accepted that she is Iliana merely begun to think that she might be. Imho with Kira she can take pretty much anything you can throw at her and as long as she believes in herself she will never break. But make her doubt herself and suddenly its a very different story.

Now I definitely want to meet your Mother, Rien Better yet I wanna watch DS9 with you guys I liked Civil Defence. I loved the part where Dukat tries to beam back to his ship and his computer turns against him

I also loved Ghemor. It was a shame what they tried to do to him. Who would have thought that Kira would be friends with a Cardassian when DS9 first started.

You are welcome to join us the more the merrier though our rewatch schedule is rather erratic and subject to change. Also if you live in anyplace not Britain it might be a long trek to find us

I definitely agree about that Dukat scene the decades old message from his superior is pure awesome and Dukat goes from arrogant and in charage to just another frustrated prisoner of the station computer As for Ghemor i love his character! The character made such a good impression on me that i had actually forgotten how few episodes he appeared in til i looked up future episodes in my little episode guide leaflet things that came with my dvd boxsets and this sentance has completely gone off course. But getting back on topic its great how for Kira he isnt just a friend he is a surrogate father to the extent that she has him buried next to her real father. That she is able to form such a close affectionate familial relationship with a Cardassian shows just how far she has come from the Kira of season 1 who probably would have just tried to stab Ghemor to death with the carving that Iliana made him

[Linda06]

You are welcome to join us the more the merrier though our rewatch schedule is rather erratic and subject to change. Also if you live in anyplace not Britain it might be a long trek to find us

I definitely agree about that Dukat scene the decades old message from his superior is pure awesome and Dukat goes from arrogant and in charage to just another frustrated prisoner of the station computer As for Ghemor i love his character! The character made such a good impression on me that i had actually forgotten how few episodes he appeared in til i looked up future episodes in my little episode guide leaflet things that came with my dvd boxsets and this sentance has completely gone off course. But getting back on topic its great how for Kira he isnt just a friend he is a surrogate father to the extent that she has him buried next to her real father. That she is able to form such a close affectionate familial relationship with a Cardassian shows just how far she has come from the Kira of season 1 who probably would have just tried to stab Ghemor to death with the carving that Iliana made him

I live in Scotland

Yeah it's surprising how few eps he was in. Kira really grew over the course of the series. That last episode Ghemor was in, where he was dying (can't remember the name), The acting with Nana and the guy that played Ghemor just blew me away. I never tire of watching that ep.It's one of the most emotional eps I've seen. And Kira finally got her closure where her Father was concerned. She got another chance and this time she didn't wait till it was too late.

[rien]

I live in Scotland

Yeah it's surprising how few eps he was in. Kira really grew over the course of the series. That last episode Ghemor was in, where he was dying (can't remember the name), The acting with Nana and the guy that played Ghemor just blew me away. I never tire of watching that ep.It's one of the most emotional eps I've seen. And Kira finally got her closure where her Father was concerned. She got another chance and this time she didn't wait till it was too late.

Scotland is a great country all my favourite relatives come from there

Oh i also love that episode Nana Visitor is such a superb actress and some of the best DS9 episodes occur when its just her and another character locked in a room together and forced to bounce off one another. That is bounce off one another talent wise in an acting kinda way otherwise that sentance just sounds silly.

[Linda06]

Scotland is a great country all my favourite relatives come from there

Oh i also love that episode Nana Visitor is such a superb actress and some of the best DS9 episodes occur when its just her and another character locked in a room together and forced to bounce off one another. That is bounce off one another talent wise in an acting kinda way otherwise that sentance just sounds silly.

hehe, yes I know what you meant

[CMWriter]

I ran across this in my online gallery and thought I'd share.
Just a little something I made in honour of DS9 a couple years back...
It's the gist of the series in a 100x100 pixel icon. xD



It took me mere minutes to create but it's actually one of my most popular pieces over on DeviantART. If anyone ever feels like using it as an avatar anywhere it's cool with me~

[rien]

I ran across this in my online gallery and thought I'd share.
Just a little something I made in honour of DS9 a couple years back...
It's the gist of the series in a 100x100 pixel icon. xD



It took me mere minutes to create but it's actually one of my most popular pieces over on DeviantART. If anyone ever feels like using it as an avatar anywhere it's cool with me~

CMwriter that is a totally awesome avatar

I wish i knew how to make stuff like that but unfortunately i completely suck at computer art of any kind. Are you definitely okay with any of us using it as an avatar? I only ask cause i need an avatar for the Criminal Minds forum that i am a member of and even though its a DS9 avatar rather than a Criminal Minds one i would like to use it with your permission.

[Cold Fuzz]

I ran across this in my online gallery and thought I'd share.
Just a little something I made in honour of DS9 a couple years back...
It's the gist of the series in a 100x100 pixel icon. xD

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs50/f/20...eplay4life.gif

It took me mere minutes to create but it's actually one of my most popular pieces over on DeviantART. If anyone ever feels like using it as an avatar anywhere it's cool with me~

Thanks for posting that. It's one of the best artworks about DS9 I've seen as it really does encapsulate the entire series.

[CMWriter]

Thanks, you two.
Yes! Anyone and everyone is more than welcome to use it. I'm not, so I don't care. xD
Oh, and if I need to resize it so that it's less KB I can do that too. If I need to for ya just ask.

[USS Defiant]

Spoiler:

As for The Abandoned, another good episode this time delving into Odo's character. By far my fave part of this episode is the scene where Kira drops by to visit Odo at his new quarters. Its made of cute especially how he lets her in and explains why the room is decorated like it is after implying that others have tried to visit before her but not been allowed in. And how he puts the plant she brought him into his old bucket. Daarrgh is Kira blind how can she not see what is right in front of her? I cant believe its going to take another 2-3 seasons before she finally gets a moment of perfect clarity and mouth rapes him. Though it did lead to this nice little verbal exchange between my mother and me which you guys may or may not find funny.

Me: Those two should just get together already.

Mum: Nods agreement..........................How?

Me: How what?

Mum: Well i suppose since hes been around solids a long time hes probably figured out what hes supposed to do by now....

Me: WTF?...............................................................(finally figures out what mum meant) Do you really think Kira is the kind to put out on a first date?

Mum: well your the one who just said they should get together.

Me: Yeah I meant dinner and dancing and a romantic relationship


Imho The Abandoned is a tough episode to watch as you can see both sides of the dilemma over whether to ship the young Jem'hadar off to a federation laboratory or whether to attempt to give him choices about his own fate. Its hard to know who is right though ultimately i tend to side with Odo whose own experiences having grown up within a laboratory as a specimen to be experimented upon allow him to understand the dilemma from a unique perspective. Unfortunately he becomes a little too personally involved in the situation.
Odo is trying both to give the young Jem'hadar the friendly nurturing environment in which to grow and develop that Odo himself never experienced and also to atone for what he percieves as a wrong committed by his people against the Jem'hadar, purposefully creating them to be violent weapons addicted to an unreplicatable substance rather than allowing them the freedom to make their own choices in life. Unfortunately by becoming personally involved in the situation rather than remaining objective he only succeeds in blinding himself to the truth, to how violent and uncontrollable the young Jem'hadar is becoming. Ultimately Odo is so focused on encouraging him towards a less violent life in the alpha quadrant that he fails to understand that the young Jem'hadar has already made a choice, that he wants to be amongst his own people in the Gamma quadrant. And to kill things not Jem'hadar. Whether this desire to be amongst his own kind is down to genetically engineered instinct or his own choice is unclear, probably the former, but it is still a choice. It is what the young Jem'hadar wants.
And its kinda ironic that Odo has spent most of the episode asking the Jem'hadar what he wants in life, challenging him to make his own choices rather than rely upon Odo for direction yet when the young Jem'hadar does make a choice Odo doesnt want to accept it because he believes it is the wrong choice, the complete opposite of what Odo chose.

I rewatched The Abandoned last week (I'm still following your series rewatch rien)

I found it a tad derivative as far as philosophical content goes - nevertheless, "The Abandoned" features some thoughtful dialogue about equality and the individual's role in life. What works best is some more development of Odo's character, a follow-up to Odo's outing in "The Search."

Most notably, Odo moves into his own quarters and abandons his pail. His quarters serve him a private place where he can freely revert to his liquid form and be a shapeshifter. Secondly, Odo's attempt to teach the Jem'Hadar adolescent (played by Bumper Robinson, who nailed that role!) that there is more to life than fighting proves to be an attempt at relieving some responsibility he feels for the wrongdoings of his race. Brilliant premise.

It isn't before long, the crew discovers the boy is a Jem'Hadar. He escapes the infirmary and begins causing problems on the station. This is when of course Odo decides to look after the Jem'Hadar, who has an instinctual implant compelling him to obey all shapeshifters (I had forgotten that the Jem'Hadar had this implant, I thought the loyalty was bred into them) Interesting!. Odo tries to teach the Jem'Hadar that he can make his own choices, and that he doesn't have to be a killing machine that only answers to his instinct and to shapeshifters.

Odo even lets the kid exercise his desire for violence by giving him a holographic combat opponent. This is where the script fully realizes the point of the episode - that Odo's attempts are pointless, as the Jem'Hadar furiously fights and fights, constantly raising the strength of the simulation. After leaving the holosuite, the Jem'Hadar brags that everyone should be afraid of him because he could kill any of them. His instinct tells him that anyone who isn't a Jem'Hadar is inferior to him. It becomes obvious Odo's attempts will ultimately fail.