Deep Space 9 Superior

[Cold Fuzz]

+2 for me now, I am winning. I don't blame you for thinking it, because I try not to believe anything people tell me online.

We're still the same number of posts--at least as of this post. Well when I go to work, some stranger will lie to me about something, sometimes even about the most inane things. (Edit: Someone will lie to be about something at least half a dozen times a day, often more.) My coworkers and I catch their dishonesty about 75% of the time because most people aren't nearly as practiced at lying as someone like, say, Garak. It's developed quite a strong skepticism streak in me.

[Cold Fuzz]

the final act is a chilling winner that leaves us hanging for the next episode. Odo breaks his promise and links again, just at the time when he should be disabling the alarm according to the set plan. As a result, rom is captured trying to undermine damar's plan and subsequently thrown in a holding cell. The minefield will now almost certainly come down. People are going to die. Kira is furious. When she confronts odo, he simply and calmly tells her "i was in the link. It just ... Didn't seem to matter." he doesn't expect her to understand (and it's a good thing, because she sure doesn't).

This is a brave ending, because it takes some real chances. Not only does it bury the federation's chances in the war even deeper under apparent hopelessness, it completely changes odo's attitudes and his relationship with kira. What's more, odo doesn't even seem to care about what he has caused by his inaction; he now sees it as "none of his concern," because he is a changeling (understanding his own people more and "solids" less). I don't see how kira could ever trust odo again. I wouldn't.

If there's one criticism of the Dominion War arc that I have it's with this very big turn with Odo that you brought up, Brother Fifth. Odo was essentially aiding the enemy in the war. He disobeyed Kira, the ranking Bajoran officer on the station. Though technically he's working for the Bajorans and not the Federation, Odo essentially betrayed an entire quadrant to the Dominion. This, by me, is treason--and yet somehow Odo goes completely unpunished for it. Even more, the entire issue was avoided altogether by the producers for reasons I can't fathom.

What's astonishing to me is that the producers had almost 2 seasons to address this not-so-minor betrayal by Odo but they never followed up on it. It's not just failing to follow up on what would have been very good character opportunities with Odo and Kira, but it brushed aside Odo's "infidelity" with the Founder Leader as if it were absolutely nothing: After the Dominion fell back to Cardassian territory, it was as if nothing happened with Odo. A big turn like this shouldn't be built up without showing the consequences.

Even a single scene with Odo and Kira could have at least addressed the fallout of this. But there was no repentance from Odo or forgiveness from Kira. That line in Sacrifice of Angels, "I'm not ready for paradise" doesn't adequately cover all this. As much as I think highly of Odo, I would never have trusted him again--and neither should anyone else--after helping out the Dominion in this manner and I think that should've been addressed.

[the Fifth Race]

Even a single scene with Odo and Kira could have at least addressed the fallout of this. But there was no repentance from Odo or forgiveness from Kira. That line in Sacrifice of Angels, "I'm not ready for paradise" doesn't adequately cover all this. As much as I think highly of Odo, I would never have trusted him again--and neither should anyone else--after helping out the Dominion in this manner and I think that should've been addressed.

Odo was under the influenece of the female changeling - I think his friends saw that for what it was, so it made it easier for them to forgive. After all Odo sure looked like he wasn't in his right mind everytime he did link with her, almost like he was high on drugs. As far as what Kira thought - they hadn't been intimate with each other up until that point and she was smitten with him. God knows I have girlfriends forgive me for stuff that I never should have been. Albeit, I wasn't responsible for countless lives being lost.

We have done the blame Odo debate a few times over the years on this thread, and I still go back and forth as to what my opinion is. Odo hasn't shyed away from controversy - don't forget the Odo who looked human on the planet that had a Defiant colony - he sacrificed himself and everyone else just to save Kira's life.

[Cold Fuzz]

Brother Fifth, I did some digging around and found this interesting bit of behind-the-scenes info regarding this very issue with Odo & Kira. It definitely does answer some of my questions. This info was about "You Are Cordially Invited..."

Neither Nana Visitor nor Rene Auberjonois were happy with how the resolution between Kira and Odo was presented; ie, off-screen. Ira Steven Behr was also unhappy with it and he has admitted, "that was a bad mistake." The reason the scene was written that way was because of a last minute rewrite and no time to come up with anything else.

As Ronald D. Moore explains, "We had originally planned that in this episode we were going to start having Odo lock himself away, refusing to mingle with anyone else on the station. The events of "Behind the Lines" and "Favor the Bold" had really shaken him and made him wonder, 'What am I doing, where do I belong, look at what I almost did.' So he was going to show up at the wedding and make an unexpected announcement. He would say, 'I've decided I can't be friends with any of you anymore, because clearly you can't trust me, so I need to go my own way. I'll do my job but that's it and that's all that's ever going to be.' And then he would walk out again. And the people there were going to go 'Whoa, what does this mean?' Then we were going to play Odo completely different for the rest of the season."

At the last minute however, Behr, Hans Beimler and Auberjonois came to Moore to enquire where the character was ultimately going to end up. Auberjonois in particular felt strongly about this new development, feeling that Odo was being alienated, and they wondered what Moore's ultimate plan was, how was he going to get Odo back into the fold. Unfortunately, he didn't have one, he hadn't thought that far ahead, so the plan was dropped at the last minute. As Moore says, "It felt wrong to take him out of the mix and alienate him from everybody without a clear idea in our heads about why we were doing it."

This change in plans however, left no time for Moore to write a deep scene of resolution between Odo and Kira. He does acknowledge however, that his off-screen solution wasn't entirely successful; "I know Nana and Rene don't like it, and some of the fans don't like it, and I don't like it. It's just one of those things that we had to do because we were out of time, and I felt that I had to do something so that it didn't seem as if we hadn't even touched on it."

[SaberBlade]

I was thinking of a question for the Trek thread, but I wasn't sure the answer would be technically correct, so it had me wonder if the Klingons and Romulans are Alpha or Beta Quadrant races. For some reason I am thinking they are Beta quadrant races but have controlled space in the Alpha quadrant, or are Alphas but have space in the Beta Quadrant. I'm also thinking that one of the shows has mentioned this and as such, the Federation can't take Beta Quadrant space and make it part of the Federation.

[Cold Fuzz]

I was thinking of a question for the Trek thread, but I wasn't sure the answer would be technically correct, so it had me wonder if the Klingons and Romulans are Alpha or Beta Quadrant races. For some reason I am thinking they are Beta quadrant races but have controlled space in the Alpha quadrant, or are Alphas but have space in the Beta Quadrant. I'm also thinking that one of the shows has mentioned this and as such, the Federation can't take Beta Quadrant space and make it part of the Federation.

The way everybody's been portrayed, the Feds are predominantly in the Alpha Quadrant but parts spill over into the Beta Quadrant. Conversely, most of the Klingon and Romulan Empires are over in Beta but spill over a little bit into Alpha.

There's a few Voyager astrometric charts of the galaxy that do confirm that the Romulans are indeed in the Beta Quadrant but you have to look very closely. I believe "Message in a Bottle" showed that map of the Hirogen relay stations, and one of the farthest ones form Voyager was near the Prometheus--inside the Beta Quadrant.

[SaberBlade]

The Feds are predominantly in the Alpha Quadrant but parts spill over into the Beta Quadrant. Conversely, most of the Klingon and Romulan Empires are over in Beta but spill over a little bit into Alpha.

I understand that, but it's mainly the location of the homeworlds that determine if it's an Alpha race or a Beta race. Romulans are basically Vulcans who decided to immigrate so they have Alpha roots but they could still be a Beta race. Earth is supposed to be close to the Beta Quadrant border and the Federation has had both Klingon and Romulan neutral zones, and both to them are also bordering each other. So it really comes down to maps or technicalities.

[Cold Fuzz]

Here is that map I mentioned:



The Prometheus was near one of the green dots (the Hirogen relay stations) near the very bottom, inside the Beta Quadrant.

Edit: The Prometheus was near the edge of the Neutral Zone, so presumably Romulus was even deeper inside the quadrant.

[Starbase]

As Ronald D. Moore explains, "We had originally planned that in this episode we were going to start having Odo lock himself away, refusing to mingle with anyone else on the station. The events of "Behind the Lines" and "Favor the Bold" had really shaken him and made him wonder, 'What am I doing, where do I belong, look at what I almost did.' So he was going to show up at the wedding and make an unexpected announcement. He would say, 'I've decided I can't be friends with any of you anymore, because clearly you can't trust me, so I need to go my own way. I'll do my job but that's it and that's all that's ever going to be.' And then he would walk out again. And the people there were going to go 'Whoa, what does this mean?' Then we were going to play Odo completely different for the rest of the season."

I remember reading this a while back. It is very interesting, and it would be have added to the continuity on that rather botched arc.

The way I look at it - is Odo was under the extreme influence of the "Link". You saw how all gaga he and all the other Changelings got whenever they melded with one another. If anything it could explain just how powerful a hold it has on them - which means anything goes while there "linking". One thing the writers did do after Odo screwed up - he was never a puppet again to the Link. He knew how he was manipulated before, and he was much wiser around the female changeling after that encounter.

I notice you have Odo as part of your all-star Police/Crime Investigator/Lawmen ...etc... avatar brother CF, very cool. By the way I love your avatar!

[the Fifth Race]

Favor the Bold

Favor the Bold is a damn near perfect storytelling assembly of just about every major facet of DS9 that comes to mind right now. There's so, so much going on in this world - so many characters to examine - so many issues to address - so much action to carry - and so many relationships to ponder. It's an incredible feat that this wonderful episode manages to cover so much ground in a single hour, moving us through huge storytelling events and relaying a number of very compelling character pieces in the process. Every bit of this episode is utterly engrossing; the culmination resulting from the loss of the station in Call to Arms is approaching, and it feels very, very real.

The primary sense conveyed in this outing was one of a dizzying situation on the brink of spinning out of control into utter apocalyptic mayhem. I'm not just talking about the obvious confrontation between the Federation and Dominion fleets that is destined to happen in the next episode; I'm talking about characters committing themselves to paths that are either going to pay off in the very near future ... or likely get themselves in real trouble or even killed.

The plot centers around what promises to be a key turning point in the war: Damar's field tests for deactivating the minefield have been successful, and he expects the entire minefield can be brought down within a week. Meanwhile, Starfleet, which "needs a big victory," is slowly persuaded by Sisko to group their remaining strong fleets into one massive effort to retake Deep Space Nine.

The plot is a must-see, but what proves more important as the show unfolds - and is the reason the episode is so engrossing -i s the way the events flow so believably and appropriately out of the characters and their motivations. We get so see what they're thinking and feeling as the world around them radically unfolds. If there's one thing this war arc has proven, it's that the creators of the series know that the story is not simply about the war, but about the people involved.

[the Fifth Race]

I remember reading this a while back. It is very interesting, and it would be have added to the continuity on that rather botched arc.

You probably remember I posted a bunch of Ronald D Moore interviews and commentary on mainly DS9 (he also talked about his TNG days and idea's for VOY), a few years back on this thread. It was all very kewl stuff! (I'll send you a link) Hazzah to brother Fuzz for digging some of it up, brilliant.

The way I look at it - is Odo was under the extreme influence of the "Link". You saw how all gaga he and all the other Changelings got whenever they melded with one another. If anything it could explain just how powerful a hold it has on them - which means anything goes while there "linking". One thing the writers did do after Odo screwed up - he was never a puppet again to the Link. He knew how he was manipulated before, and he was much wiser around the female changeling after that encounter.

Interesting take brother Starbase. And it sounds logical to a degree. You are right about how the writers turned Odo in to a harder version who wasn't swayed by the female changeling anymore. Over-all RDM and the other writers IMHO - did a nice save as far as continuity goes, it always helps to use your imagination a little as well.

[SaberBlade]

Here is that map I mentioned:



The Prometheus was near one of the green dots (the Hirogen relay stations) near the very bottom, inside the Beta Quadrant.

Edit: The Prometheus was near the edge of the Neutral Zone, so presumably Romulus was even deeper inside the quadrant.

There has always been something about that map I didn't like. It just seems wrong. The bottom of the network seems to be a good 15 to 20,000 light years away from the Alpha Quadrant yet the ship was supposed to be in the Alpha Quadrant at the edge of the network. However the map itself shows the array stretching across the Delta and Beta Quadrants.

It also appears that the array network was always in range of Voyager. I think the map would need to show the arrays closer to the right side of the map, then rotated so they are in a 2/7 clock face position. That way they are closer to the Alpha Quadrant and out Voyager's path for the biggest chunk of their trip.

[jelgate]

I remember reading this a while back. It is very interesting, and it would be have added to the continuity on that rather botched arc.

The way I look at it - is Odo was under the extreme influence of the "Link". You saw how all gaga he and all the other Changelings got whenever they melded with one another. If anything it could explain just how powerful a hold it has on them - which means anything goes while there "linking". One thing the writers did do after Odo screwed up - he was never a puppet again to the Link. He knew how he was manipulated before, and he was much wiser around the female changeling after that encounter.

I notice you have Odo as part of your all-star Police/Crime Investigator/Lawmen ...etc... avatar brother CF, very cool. By the way I love your avatar!

Its why in my comapared the Great Link like a drug. Like many drugs it hinders rational thinking and even to a point a person's caring about others who can't link. As for Odo not being punishied for treason. He did kind of help in the dismantling of DS9's computer forcing the Dominion to retreat. Things like that help.

[Spimman]

Season 3 - "Past Tense I & II"

A pretty exciting journey back to 2024 San Fransisco. When Bashir inadvertently alters the timeline it's up to Sisko to set things back how they should be. An interesting look at a possible future and a fun adventure. I enjoyed the episode.

Season 3 - "Life Support"

Bareil is fatally injured right before the conclusion of peace talks with Cardassia. His determination to finish the talks are admirable and Wynn's incompetence seems a little much. I was disappointed to see Bareil killed of and while he went out with his head held high, it seemed a little anticlimactic.

[USS Defiant]

Favor the Bold

IMO the characterization is even more primary than plot because there's so much of it running through the episode. This can be seen in a number of turns relationships take. Dukat and Ziyal, for instance, remain exceptionally complicated and true to character. When Ziyal asks the favor that her father show mercy to the Bajorans by releasing Rom, he can't do it, again driving up that division between them. Ziyal is furious and scornful of her father, yet remains just as naive as ever. She tells Kira she wants nothing to do with him, but Kira knows better to take such words at face value (especially considering how easily Ziyal forgave him in "Sons and Daughters")-Ziyal is angry right now, but when the anger passes it won't seem so clear cut.

Meanwhile, Dukat is intent on making amends, placing his top priority on having his daughter "at his side" when the moment of victory comes. For Dukat, it's a very appropriate notion, because it would make his actions all the easier. He desperately wants acceptance of his actions by somebody close to him. Kira most certainly will have none of it. So Ziyal might best represent Dukat's hope of having his actions validated and supported by a "third party", and, further, perhaps by a specifically Bajoran third party. His ordering of Damar to try to convince Ziyal to come talk with him is so very telling at how much it means to Dukat and how desperate he has become to feel fully justified and endorsed about his would-be self-heroic course of action.

Then there was Kira beating the living hell out of Damar - a visceral moment that has been building up. We know these two don't like each other, and Kira's protection of Ziyal is among the most appropriate ways of both bringing it about and simultaneously allowing Kira to vent some of her obvious frustrations. A welcome, if violent, impulse. Also, the continuance of Odo's self-search proved every bit as interesting as the setup in "Behind the Lines" let on. His introducing the Female Changeling to "solid" sexuality only deepened the sense that he had put himself in real trouble, either uncaring or oblivious to the gravity of his actions in "Behind the Lines." But his subsequent bewildered realization that three days have passed without his knowledge really worries him, suggesting that "oblivious" describes him better than "uncaring", as if he has been cut off from the world and, until now, left unaware of the severity of his actions. When he finally goes to apologize to Kira for his betrayal, he seems more like the Odo we know. (But Kira's response - basically that "sorry" doesn't come close to cutting it--is completely justified, and shows that this shattered relationship, thankfully, is not going to be fixed.)

But, then, I had the Female Changeling pegged all wrong. I figured she came to Odo partly to undermine his position on the station, but here her motives take a startling direction when she informs Weyoun that she had come to the station intent on bringing Odo home - that returning one of their own to the Link means more to the Founders than the entire Alpha Quadrant itself. On the other hand, her discussion with Odo on how "small" the solids now look - to which Odo merely responds, "It's not their fault"-is quite unsettling. The Founders may claim not to care about "having" the Alpha Quadrant, but they do certainly want to control it. Such control is frightening; the power the Female Founder has over Weyoun is almost eerie. (Weyoun: "I didn't mean any disrespect." Founder: "Of course you didn't. You are what you are." Yikes.) And while Odo may be a little more aware of what's going on in the "solid" universe than he did previously, his perspectives have most assuredly changed.