Deep Space 9 Superior

[Starbase]

The Female Changeling (who was also brilliantly portrayed by Salome Jens) had this look of utter hatred every single time she talked about "solids, and the Founders plan to destroy "all solids". Some people might argue that the Founders and especially the Female Changeling were evil incarnate. Personally I'm about 50/50 on that. I agree with a lot of what you say brother SB, but a big part of me also thinks that the Founders were as big a threat and as evil as there ever was or ever will be.

I tend to agree with the fact that the Founders and especially the Female Changeling were pretty darn evil. The way she and the other Changeling Laas (1 of the 100 like Odo), from the DS9 S7 episode Chimera, talked about how solids are better off dead was more than just ignorance or even racism. They (Laas and the Female Changeling), and other Changelings, weren't afraid and went out there of there way to express there pure hatred towards all solids.

[SaberBlade]

Agreed brother jelgate, read on .......
Great post, but it's debatable -- All I can think of was her disdain "for all solids". She didn't categorize or play favorites (except for the Vorta, which the Founders abused) about her motive to destroy "all solids". The Female Changeling (who was also brilliantly portrayed by Salome Jens) had this look of utter hatred every single time she talked about "solids, and the Founders plan to destroy "all solids". Some people might argue that the Founders and especially the Female Changeling were evil incarnate. Personally I'm about 50/50 on that. I agree with a lot of what you say brother SB, but a big part of me also thinks that the Founders were as big a threat and as evil as there ever was or ever will be.

Yeah, the Founders were a big threat, but on a character level, the Female Changeling was mainly concerned with her people, even when the war over for the Dominion, she was willing to allow the Jem Hadar to fight until they all died just to make sure that the Alpha Quadrant would not pose a danger. So on that level, Winn and Dukat were worse.

Ultimately though, the Founders as a whole could be considered evil but I don't think they are. The Obsidian Order, the Tal Shiar and Section 31 proved everything the Founders said about solids as being right.

As you said, she "had this look of utter hatred every single time she talked about "solids, and the Founders plan to destroy "all solids"." but is really evil when two powerful Alpha Quadrant races unite to destroying your people with a strong military force? or evil when another powerful Alpha Quadrant race almost succeeds in killing your race with biological warfare?

As the saying goes, it's not paranoia if someone is really out to get you.

Although to be fair, it wasn't so much the Cardassians, the Romulans or the Federation who tried to kill them, but independent authorities of the Government which can't be stopped, but as much as Odo tried to sway the Female Changeling with talk of peace and the Federation not allowing the other governments to go to war, when Tain's fleet went to the Founders homeworld, Starfleet were willing to sit back and of course Section 31 was more than happy to infect Odo on the off chance he'd go home. The same was to be said for the Romulans and Cardassians. They were also happy to let Tain go on his suicide mission on the off chance it would work.

While their methods were fairly brutal, the opinion that all solids must be controlled to keep the Founders safe is pretty valid. As much as we could say "well the Federation wouldn't do anything bad", it always comes back to Section 31 showing that even the friendliest and well intentioned races could still do something horrible to them. Treat people bad enough, and eventually they will rise up and act out against anyone who is a danger to them.

[Cold Fuzz]

I'd disagree. When all was said and done, her motives were ultimately the protection of her people and for good reason, Tain wanted the Romulans and Cardassians to team up and wipe out the Founders out. Winn and Dukat on the other hand, both were driven by petty jealous and desires for revenge. Winn was angry at Sisko for the respect and admiration her people had for him and because of his connection to the Prophets, and Dukat was the same because he wanted the respect and admiration of the Bajorans and because of his connection to Prophets.

Great post. While I agree with you about Winn and Dukat, I'm not so sure about the Founder Leader. She said to Odo once, "The solids have always been a threat to us. It's all the justification we've ever needed." (Anyone know where that quote was from? )

The Founders' actions had been one of defense, I'd be more sympathetic to her and her people. However, the Dominion had endured for 2,000 years (at least according to Weyoun in "To the Death"), ruling a large swath of the Gamma Quadrant with an iron fist. It's like an entire civilization of horribly abused children who grew up to be abusers themselves...and I've already had to deal with a few of them so I recognize the mindset. Such people can be incredibly cruel and dangerous.

The Dominion poisoned the Teplans with that terrible Quickening virus when all they wanted was to be free. The Dominion probably performed similar atrocities on hundreds of other civilizations in the Gamma Quadrant. I'm afraid that's well beyond self defense, especially if they wanted to conquer the Alpha Quadrant and turn it into a mirror image of their side of the galaxy. The Founder Leader herself gave the orders that resulted in the deaths of over 800 million Cardassians. That's...ugh.

[Starbase]

Yeah, the Founders were a big threat, but on a character level, the Female Changeling was mainly concerned with her people, even when the war over for the Dominion, she was willing to allow the Jem Hadar to fight until they all died just to make sure that the Alpha Quadrant would not pose a danger. So on that level, Winn and Dukat were worse.

I'll give you that one, good point. Whether we argue semantics or it simply may be that we have different perspectives including various levels of degree on what is evil. I respect your point of view.

Ultimately though, the Founders as a whole could be considered evil but I don't think they are. The Obsidian Order, the Tal Shiar and Section 31 proved everything the Founders said about solids as being right.

While their methods were fairly brutal, the opinion that all solids must be controlled to keep the Founders safe is pretty valid. As much as we could say "well the Federation wouldn't do anything bad", it always comes back to Section 31 showing that even the friendliest and well intentioned races could still do something horrible to them. Treat people bad enough, and eventually they will rise up and act out against anyone who is danger to them

lolol I agree. IMO the DS9 writers were making the point that no matter how evil the Founders, or even the Borg may be for that matter. There is going to be a human, or Cardassian, or Romulan, or Klingon, or Breen ...etc... that is going to be even more evil. We have seen this in every Star Trek Television Series and a handful of Star Trek Movies as well. "Great stuff" and a "great post" as brother Fifth race likes to say.

I will leave you with wonderful diddy .... "You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your "victory" will taste as bitter as defeat." - Female Changeling

[jelgate]

I'll give you that one, good point. Whether we argue semantics or it simply may be that we have different perspectives including various levels of degree on what is evil. I respect your point of view.
lolol I agree. IMO the DS9 writers were making the point that no matter how evil the Founders, or even the Borg may be for that matter. There is going to be a human, or Cardassian, or Romulan, or Klingon, or Breen ...etc... that is going to be even more evil. We have seen this in every Star Trek Television Series and a handful of Star Trek Movies as well. "Great stuff" and a "great post" as brother Fifth race likes to say.

I will leave you with wonderful diddy .... "You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your "victory" will taste as bitter as defeat." - Female Changeling

What You Leave Behind.

What do you mean this isn't a guess the quote question?

[Starbase]

"You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your "victory" will taste as bitter as defeat." - Female Changeling

What You Leave Behind.

What do you mean this isn't a guess the quote question?

lolol and brother jelgate wins $1,000,000 lolol I will leave the guess the quotes and trivia to brother Fifth Race. He just does it so darn well, plus I have seen him build these quizzes. Way to much work!. Plus he wouldn't give us one that easy.

[SaberBlade]

The death of over 800 million Cardassians, despite being a crime beyond imagination, still comes back to being justified by the defence of her people. The fact she'd give such an order is by itself a true act of evil, but I believe the justification for giving such an order counts for a lot. Most of humanities history can be considered evil, but how the point of view changes everything.

When Sisko and Dukat were stranded on a planet, he went on one hell of rant. He hated the Bajorans for everything, he wanted them all dead, he didn't care for any of them, he just wanted them dead because he was better than them. The Bajorans wouldn't accept it and he was going to kill them all, even if it were the last thing he did. He wanted to be worshipped by them and that lead to him trying to the be Pah Wraith Emissary, because he'd burn Bajor to the ground and have the rest worshipping him just to prove he was better than them and better than Sisko.

Winn, same again. She hated her own people because of the Prophets. They could see the future, knew very well what she'd do because it was all part of Sisko's destiny so they ignored her. She was willing to let the Pah Wraiths turn Bajor to ash and kill all those who wouldn't follow the Kost Amojan because she too wanted that power, and she wanted to prove that the Prophets were wrong by rejecting her. You take that, and the respect she always wanted and she'd let that ultimately destroy Bajor. The only reason she had her change of heart was because Dukat was lying to her.

Then you have the Female Changeling. She's trying to win a war, she wants to help save her people or at least help make sure that no Alpha Quadrant power will be a threat to the Gamma Quadrant and the Cardassians not try to interfere on Cardassia, but also had the entire military turn against her.

I think what shows a bit of compassion is the Founders could have wiped out any planet who resisted, but in turn they infected them with a disease. Surely wiping out a planet would be enough especially if they didn't care about them. Instead, they are allowed to live. Yes they are sick, but they are also alive. Even during the war, why work to conquer the Alpha Quadrant when you can take a world, infect it's population or make it uninhabitable and then move on? The Founders had this potential but they wanted to rule, they wanted order, they didn't necessarily kill everyone, just those that were a threat. I think they deserve some points for that.

The Enterprise D meets Hugh, and it's only thanks to Picard that he wasn't infected with a computer virus/hack/problem to spread to the Collective and I remember Picard getting grief about it, because Starfleet would have wanted him to do it yet at the time, the worst that happened was a single cube trying to make it's way to Earth. Hardly a full invasion.

[jelgate]

"You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your "victory" will taste as bitter as defeat." - Female Changeling
lolol and brother jelgate wins $1,000,000 lolol I will leave the guess the quotes and trivia to brother Fifth Race. He just does it so darn well, plus I have seen him build these quizzes. Way to much work!. Plus he wouldn't give us one that easy.

I've got one.

"The fact is that the universe is going to stop expanding and it is going to collapse in on itself. We've got to do something before it's too late."
"How much time do we have left?"
"Sixty trillion years, seventy at the most."
"Oh, no."

Yeah I know you'll get it.

[jelgate]

The death of over 800 million Cardassians, despite being a crime beyond imagination, still comes back to being justified by the defence of her people. The fact she'd give such an order is by itself a true act of evil, but I believe the justification for giving such an order counts for a lot. Most of humanities history can be considered evil, but how the point of view changes everything.

When Sisko and Dukat were stranded on a planet, he went on one hell of rant. He hated the Bajorans for everything, he wanted them all dead, he didn't care for any of them, he just wanted them dead because he was better than them. The Bajorans wouldn't accept it and he was going to kill them all, even if it were the last thing he did. He wanted to be worshipped by them and that lead to him trying to the be Pah Wraith Emissary, because he'd burn Bajor to the ground and have the rest worshipping him just to prove he was better than them and better than Sisko.

Winn, same again. She hated her own people because of the Prophets. They could see the future, knew very well what she'd do because it was all part of Sisko's destiny so they ignored her. She was willing to let the Pah Wraiths turn Bajor to ash and kill all those who wouldn't follow the Kost Amojan because she too wanted that power, and she wanted to prove that the Prophets were wrong by rejecting her. You take that, and the respect she always wanted and she'd let that ultimately destroy Bajor. The only reason she had her change of heart was because Dukat was lying to her.

Then you have the Female Changeling. She's trying to win a war, she wants to help save her people or at least help make sure that no Alpha Quadrant power will be a threat to the Gamma Quadrant and the Cardassians not try to interfere on Cardassia, but also had the entire military turn against her.

I think what shows a bit of compassion is the Founders could have wiped out any planet who resisted, but in turn they infected them with a disease. Surely wiping out a planet would be enough especially if they didn't care about them. Instead, they are allowed to live. Yes they are sick, but they are also alive. Even during the war, why work to conquer the Alpha Quadrant when you can take a world, infect it's population or make it uninhabitable and then move on? The Founders had this potential but they wanted to rule, they wanted order, they didn't necessarily kill everyone, just those that were a threat. I think they deserve some points for that.

The Enterprise D meets Hugh, and it's only thanks to Picard that he wasn't infected with a computer virus/hack/problem to spread to the Collective and I remember Picard getting grief about it, because Starfleet would have wanted him to do it yet at the time, the worst that happened was a single cube trying to make it's way to Earth. Hardly a full invasion.

I find the whole for my people thing a cover for the attrocities the Female Changeling. Kind of like how Winn and Dukat defend their crimes for the betterment of Bajorans. Ultimately I claim a person more evil by the attrocities they committ and she did far worse then Winn and Dukat. Although the two did committ massive crimes as well

[Cold Fuzz]

The death of over 800 million Cardassians, despite being a crime beyond imagination, still comes back to being justified by the defence of her people. The fact she'd give such an order is by itself a true act of evil, but I believe the justification for giving such an order counts for a lot. Most of humanities history can be considered evil, but how the point of view changes everything.

...

Then you have the Female Changeling. She's trying to win a war, she wants to help save her people or at least help make sure that no Alpha Quadrant power will be a threat to the Gamma Quadrant and the Cardassians not try to interfere on Cardassia, but also had the entire military turn against her.

The thing is, the Cardassian military turned against her because the Dominion destroyed Lakarian City, a city of 2 million men, women, and children. The ends justifies the means argument makes her no different than Section 31. I also would had that the Dominion started the war.

I think what shows a bit of compassion is the Founders could have wiped out any planet who resisted, but in turn they infected them with a disease. Surely wiping out a planet would be enough especially if they didn't care about them. Instead, they are allowed to live. Yes they are sick, but they are also alive. Even during the war, why work to conquer the Alpha Quadrant when you can take a world, infect it's population or make it uninhabitable and then move on? The Founders had this potential but they wanted to rule, they wanted order, they didn't necessarily kill everyone, just those that were a threat. I think they deserve some points for that.

I can't agree there. The Quickening was not compassion. That was punishment. They wanted the Teplans to know the price of their resistance by seeing the blight on their faces every time they saw another person. They may be alive but they suffer horribly and their final moments of life are in agony. I'm not going to give the Dominion any ground on this one because all the Teplans wanted was to be free and they got the blight for that. No desire for order or past injustice against the Founders could possibly justify doing this to an entire society that just wanted to be free.

The Enterprise D meets Hugh, and it's only thanks to Picard that he wasn't infected with a computer virus/hack/problem to spread to the Collective and I remember Picard getting grief about it, because Starfleet would have wanted him to do it yet at the time, the worst that happened was a single cube trying to make it's way to Earth. Hardly a full invasion.

At Wolf 359 single cube destroyed 39 ships and killed at least 11,000 people. That single cube could have transformed entire planets into drones if it hadn't been stopped. Another cube came later and it was only because of Picard's previous experience that Starfleet was able to stop it, and even then many lives were lost. A single cube is an immense threat to any sentient beings that may come into contact with it.

[Cold Fuzz]

I've got one.

"The fact is that the universe is going to stop expanding and it is going to collapse in on itself. We've got to do something before it's too late."
"How much time do we have left?"
"Sixty trillion years, seventy at the most."
"Oh, no."

Yeah I know you'll get it.

Statistical Probabilities. The "mutants" are talking amongst themselves in the cargo bay.

[jelgate]

The thing is, the Cardassian military turned against her because the Dominion destroyed Lakarian City, a city of 2 million men, women, and children. The ends justifies the means argument makes her no different than Section 31. I also would had that the Dominion started the war.

Technically the Federation started the way by blocking the Dominion's supply route but come on we know they were planning for war despite what Weyoun said

Statistical Probabilities. The "mutants" are talking amongst themselves in the cargo bay.

Wrong. But you're in the ballpark

[Alan Wake]

Jelgate.. I bow before your knowledge of all things Star Trek.

[Cold Fuzz]

Technically the Federation started the way by blocking the Dominion's supply route but come on we know they were planning for war despite what Weyoun said

Wrong. But you're in the ballpark

The Dominion's plans for the Alpha Quadrant were discernible as far back as "The Search" though how those plans came to fruition were unknown to the audience at the time.

OK, if not Statistical Probabilities, then it's from Chrysalis.

[jelgate]

The Dominion's plans for the Alpha Quadrant were discernible as far back as "The Search" though how those plans came to fruition were unknown to the audience at the time.

OK, if not Statistical Probabilities, then it's from Chrysalis.

True. But they hadn't formally declared war until they Deep Space Nine