Trek vs. Gate: cage match!

[Cymro]

The concept in Trek is that people would work because that's what they like doing. Like Sisko's dad running a restaurant, not to make money, but because he like's to cook. Or the Picard family running a vinyard because they believe in upholding the family tradition. The reason it works is that when food, energy, housing and everything else you'd want are all provided for free, so people are free to do whatever they want without worrying about money.

[Dahak]

The concept in Trek is that people would work because that's what they like doing. Like Sisko's dad running a restaurant, not to make money, but because he like's to cook. Or the Picard family running a vinyard because they believe in upholding the family tradition. The reason it works is that when food, energy, housing and everything else you'd want are all provided for free, so people are free to do whatever they want without worrying about money.

Yes that could work on Earth just fine.I am sure there is a large number of poor people living in replicated buildings, eating food cubes, and taking holo vacations.
However money of some sort would be needed to deal with the various Empires. There is a lot of trade in all the ST shows and I don't think barter really would work.
Also like I asked last time while the occasionally say that there is no money in the UFP they sure don't act like it. Why would Risa just give away drinks or food to the crew of the Enterprise? It's not like they have ever seen humans before. Where do the Starfleet personnel on DS9 get latinum to gamble with and buy drinks at Quark's?
Now I can easily believe there is no more cash but no money of any sort? What happened to make humans get rid of cash anyway? Ever since it first appeared to let soldiers get drunk in various countries money has been used all around the world whether it's "logical" or not.

[Darth Buddha]

In TNG and DS9 all manufacturing, property, transportation, and communication seems to be government owned and managed. That's not socialist.

What, like your highways paid for out of taxes, and your subsidized railways?

I think you need to do some reading, you have your ideas of communism and socialism a bit akilter.

Moreover, all we saw in the series in any detail was Starfleet ships and bases... much like the military, there was free health care, and in subsidized or free meals. Nothing new under the sun.

The show espouses a culture devoid of capitalism, dominated by pacifism, and wed to moral relativism. That's left-wing not liberal.

Again, not on target. We've seen plenty of humans "in business", so capitalism is not dead. People are still paid (salaries are mentioned in DS9), even Sisko's DAD was in business as a restaraunt owner. What was dead was the NEED for greed. If you can be fed, clothed, and housed, you can focus on other pursuits. I'd call it a technocracy... there is enough spare production for almost everybody to NOT work if they don't want to.. but seemingly everybody does. Is that so hard to conceptualize? Or even when production becomes that efficient, would you prefer to see a few uber wealthy and everyone else in misery?

As to pacifism, the Dominion, Romulan, and other wars put the lie to your statement right off.

To explore the stargate network and seek out technology and methods to defend themselves from the Goa'uld. Now how is the show conservative?

Completely in line with pre-emptive dealing with threats (the neo-con creed), completely in line with an imperialist agenda, and having the military dominate such a resource is entirely consistent with a totalitarian bent.

Just what is there that conservatives wouldn't like? Nothing. As opposed to Trek, which is somewhat anti-capitalist and does oppose "regime change" by superior powers.

[Darth Buddha]

Also like I asked last time while the occasionally say that there is no money in the UFP they sure don't act like it. Why would Risa just give away drinks or food to the crew of the Enterprise? It's not like they have ever seen humans before. Where do the Starfleet personnel on DS9 get latinum to gamble with and buy drinks at Quark's?
Now I can easily believe there is no more cash but no money of any sort? What happened to make humans get rid of cash anyway? Ever since it first appeared to let soldiers get drunk in various countries money has been used all around the world whether it's "logical" or not.

Clearly, folks are paid. However, it is apparent that on Federation worlds, folks have such a measure of excess (probably through cheap antimatter and fusion power) that much in life IS free, or at least you get an allowance (a transporter credit allowance for Starfleet cadets is mentioned in DS9).

Consider that if power is free, or at least a certain amount is, and if you have replicator tech, the anything you can replicate is free (or at least a certain amount is). Right there, you free people up to do what they want with their time. Personally, I think you'd see a lot of indolent people, and a minority of people dedicated to what they love... over time, you might see more and more devoted to "the love". Instead of wanting to get rich, you might want to be a renowned chef, a great gardner, whatever. Sounds like paradise to me.

[Cymro]

Earth was refered to as a paradise dozens of times in Star Trek. As for money, the Federation does have money - but they mostly don't use it internally. What I thought was one of the best examples of how the non-capitalist federation works was on DS9. On DS9, they had replicators in their quarters, and a replemat for visitors or just as a public meeting place, which were all free, but on top of that, the Starfleet crew were given an allowance of Latinum to use in the various establisments on the promenade (i.e. Quark's), and the Federation no doubt keeps it's own supply of Latinum for trade.

If anyone here would look deep inside themselves and think of what they really want to do, I bet they'd come up with something more than "sit in the house and watch TV all day". The federation is a society where you're free to study, create and experience whatever you want. Personally, if I didn't have to think about money, I'd be doing all sorts of stuff - painting, composing, inventing things, studying all sorts of scientific stiuff, writing...but, not having the funds to support all my interests is what holds me back from persuing them fully.

[Dahak]

Clearly, folks are paid. However, it is apparent that on Federation worlds, folks have such a measure of excess (probably through cheap antimatter and fusion power) that much in life IS free, or at least you get an allowance (a transporter credit allowance for Starfleet cadets is mentioned in DS9).

Consider that if power is free, or at least a certain amount is, and if you have replicator tech, the anything you can replicate is free (or at least a certain amount is). Right there, you free people up to do what they want with their time. Personally, I think you'd see a lot of indolent people, and a minority of people dedicated to what they love... over time, you might see more and more devoted to "the love". Instead of wanting to get rich, you might want to be a renowned chef, a great gardner, whatever. Sounds like paradise to me.

I agree that there is probably a very high Basic Living Stipend on the bigger Federation planets. However that is not the same thing as saying there is no money. And yes you would see a lot of lazy people watching t.v. and holo porn all day.
Also I agree that we know almost nothing about the Federation. All the shows and movies have been about Starfleet and the military is always a bad example of what life is like.
What I object too isn't the idea that there is no money or that the UFP is a form of actually workable communism but that Roddenberry just threw it in there and then never explained it. If GR and Bermaga are going to make these comments about how the future is so much better they should first be consistent and second actually think it through. Otherwise we have plotholes like Warp 10, Ponfar, no money, is SF military or not, etc.
It's the lazy one of writing that bugs me the most about Star Trek. A simple "hey does this fit in with what has been told before?" would fix at least half of these problems. If something changes because the writers need it to then explain why. I am not complaining about the Klingon bumpiness issue or about the Borg on Ent am I? No because they actually made an effort to re-explain what had changed.

[Darth Buddha]

However that is not the same thing as saying there is no money.

For the last time, the issue of there being money was settled once and for all in DS9. There IS money, and even Starfleet officers get a salary. Period. PLEASE stop belaboring that point. It is really irritating.

What I object too isn't the idea that there is no money or that the UFP is a form of actually workable communism but that Roddenberry just threw it in there and then never explained it.

You call it communism, I call it socialism. Obviously there is a monetary economy, and just as obviously there are many free social services. Communism has the nasty totalitarian connotation, so I resist your conclusion. We have no evidence of totalitarianism, and people seem to have a lot more freedom to do WHAT THEY WANT than would exist in even a benevolent communist system. Socialism is the better fit. If you have a viable rationale for why your word choice is more appropriate, I'd like to hear it.

You literally want an explanation of the economic system?

Is that realistic? Do you expect that in Babylon 5? In Star Wars?

Get over it.

[the Fifth Race]

The way I understood the way the monetary system works in ST (TNG and beyond), is that on Earth there is no need for money or any kind of monetary system. But on other Starfleet planets where a monetray system is still the norm, they give starfleet personal a salary so they can be a part of whatever planet there on so they can be able to buy things.

As far as SF personal goes on DS9, I don't remember them talking about salaries?.

[Darth Buddha]

As far as SF personal goes on DS9, I don't remember them talking about salaries?.

I believe it was Dax talking about a gambling debt with someoneng. I can't go searching for the exact quote right now.

[the Fifth Race]

I believe it was Dax talking about a gambling debt with someoneng. I can't go searching for the exact quote right now.

I know money and especially Latinum were a big part of DS9 (especially with episodes involving Quark).

I do remember some episodes with O'Brien using money and or Latinum to get things, and I do remember Dax gambling with Latinum strips playing Dabo or JumJa or something like that

[Cymro]

In DS9 Starfeet personel were paid in latinum so they could buy things on the promenade.

Dahak, it really amazes me that you don't understand this - Trek is based on the notion that in the future, humanity will have improved to the point where people don't fight over stupid things, feel a responsibility to contribute to the rest of society - without acctually wanting something in return, and the way it works is that everything is so great you won't have a problem with working.

[Dahak]

In DS9 Starfeet personel were paid in latinum so they could buy things on the promenade.

Dahak, it really amazes me that you don't understand this - Trek is based on the notion that in the future, humanity will have improved to the point where people don't fight over stupid things, feel a responsibility to contribute to the rest of society - without acctually wanting something in return, and the way it works is that everything is so great you won't have a problem with working.

Uhm I do understand that the economy is a lot better off in ST universe. I don't care if the UFP is communist, socialist, facist, an oligarchy, an empire, a republic, or any other type of govt that we can think of.
My point and sorry if I didn't get it across and (sorry DB) is that the writers have been inconsistent with the whole monetary issue. Same thing with Warp 10 and exactly what SF is.
Like I said to Darth Buddha except he didn't leave it in there is that if a writer tells us something it has to be true or they have to tell us what changed. Hoping that the fans won't catch them in inconsistencies or worse they don't realize themselves is bad writing.
I also realize that all shows do this and I complain when they don't pay attention to their own writing. I have not complained about the Borg, Ferenghi, Klingon bumpiness, or how the Vulcans act issues have I? No because at least they tried to explain the inconsistencies.

[Cymro]

Well, I'll agree with you that there are a lot of inconsistencies, caused both by careless writers who haven't done their homework (remember when B&B said "you can't expect us to watch every episode ever made"? And that they've never watched TOS etc.), and by writers who really need to adapt certain (trivial) facts to suit the situation. The latter has been done by SG a few times.

As for the economy issue, I think it's not so much due to carelessness, or a need to adapt the facts, but more that economics are a little too complicated for one blanket statement "the federation doesn't use money" to cover. I mean, the SF crew on DS9, TNG, TOS, Voyager and Enterprise were never in it for the money, they were in it because it's what they wanted to do. Look at the staff in Ten Forward on the Enterprise D. They weren't in Starfleet, and probably didn't want to be, but they got to experience being on the federation Flagship, and all they had to do was tend bar, that's how it works. When everything you could want is provided for you, there is no frustration at having to pay bills or whatever, and I think most people would feel like they should contribute to keeping this poverty free society going. And I've said it way too many times now, but if someone in SF is payed, it's for use in places outside the federation.

[Darth Buddha]

Thanks, Dahak, I follow your point now, and you are right.