For King & Country (308)

[majorsal]

another thing...

i loved helen's white shirt when she went to get john!

[Skydiver]

I'm also a bit curious as to why this disease developed so rapidly in Helen. She's only been exposed to it for a day or two and there are already some pretty heavy duty changes happening in her body. It would seem to me that it ought to have taken longer to develop. Adam, after all, has been zipping back and forth through that portal who knows how many times and for how long before his confrontation with Helen, and he has apparently the same level of deterioration she has.

yeah. Helen went through the rift once. Adam, oh i lost count but 50+ times or so???? plus adam had exposed skin twice.

one would think adam, a regular mortal vs helen, with her longevity, his greater exposure, her lesser exposure, wouldn't be quite as sick or it'd be slower in her.

then again, maybe she can be chronic for months before succumbing...and i bet adam does right about the time the actor's contract ends

[Skydiver]

[QUOTE=EvenstarSRV;12134731]

Yeah, she was scared and that really was the first time she let herself slow down and let down her guard since Adam attacked her. Lovely moment between the characters.

it was. very nice.

I think there's likely a degree of jealousy on Tesla's part in relation to Adam, in that he seems to have a mastery over the technology and the Hollow Earth map that has given Tesla so much trouble. I also wonder if Adam wasn't in some part responsible for founding the Cabal, the PM did mention that he'd been able to infiltrate many levels of government.

yep, tesla does not tolerate ANYONE beating him in any way.

I can see Biggie being off on a mission, but Kate was with Helen and Will and the end of Breach, so it was quite jarring, to me at least, to see her just disappear in this episode with no explanation. At the least I think she should have been with Helen and Will as they were wheeling Adam in.

Kate is, from the line where helen says to get hazmat to cordon it off, spin whatever story necessary and that biggie is meeing her, securing the warehouse.

That's an interesting theory. I had thought his mental break didn't happen until Imogen's death, since DID is often caused by a extremely stressful or traumatic event, but there were hints of the Hyde persona earlier so I can see him subtly taking over for short periods and poisoning her.

we'll find out

Hmm, I'm not sure if he'd been in the city before that, but I think he did know about it and that's why he let himself fall off the cliff. I do think since he got kicked out he's been manipulating things to get back in, including poisoning Helen to give her more motivation to find Hollow Earth.

his comment about it being stupendous suggests that he has, then again he could be bluffing to keep her from killing him.

1. Well, it was probably due to hypothermia. Chances are, he was on the verge of death, but not totally dead due to the temperature of the water. Assuming it was cold, that is.

yep. no miracle max needed

people can be 'dead' and frozen for long periods of time and still be revived

Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

that's how i'm interpreting it. Will got helen and adam to help, kate stayed behind to lock down and clean up the warehouse. who better to spin the story and make things happen?

[majorsal]

possibility of why helen's poisoning is as big as adam's...

'breach' spoilers

Spoiler:

when helen kept coming upon those disk thingies in the ceiling; what if *those* were the things that upped her radiation poisoning to adam's level? she didn't know what they were, and even stabbed one (and got electrocuted). so?...

[hedwig]

Actually I got the impression it wasn't as advanced as Adam's condition, his organs were already starting to fail and Helen had only just progressed to coughing up blood and was still on her feet.

I was thinking it was very far advanced because of when Tesla handed Will a file with test results, and it said it had spread to the lymph nodes/organs, and the spine. That's pretty far advanced for just a few days time. Unless it has something to do with whatever type of radiation it is. Helen did say something about it being the kind of radiation the human body should never be exposed to or some such thing. Not that there's any kind the human body should be exposed to. But she made it sound like something worse that "normal" kinds of radiation.

Plus, it looks from the previews that Adam is still on his feet. And if he's going to "lead" them anywhere, he's going to need to be on his feet quite a bit.

[majorsal]

in the part where helen was explaining to will about going through time (insert techno babble), she then made a remark about it sounding so ridiculous (i think that was her word for it) when saying it...

that *so* reminded me of the stuff sam had had to say, so i wonder if that was in inside joke?

[RealmOfX]

My argument about whether Adam could have caused his daughter's leukemia is hardly quibbling, and given that it's fan speculation not canon, makes my question totally legitimate. The amount of radiation needed to cause leukemia is quite intense, and would need to be very focused to only effect one girl.

What I said was canon was that Sanctuary has/uses advanced tech and medical stuff both in the past and present. Radiation is not the only thing that is thought to be a possible cause of leukemia there are other things, just off the top of my head things like Benzene and Formaldehyde, both of which were substances known of in the 1800's. Known substances + advanced medical knowledge/techniques = a very possible situation that Adam could have caused the disease within the Sanctuary universe.

[EvenstarSRV]

Not that it explains anything about Kate's absence from the episode, but in the elevator scene as Helen and Will wheel Adam into it, and find Tesla and Henry there - Will says something about cleaning up the site they just came from, and to use whatever excuse they need to in order to get it done, and Henry then says "Biggie's on his way to meet Kate". I guess that's all the explanation we get as to the absence of both of them.

Ah, nice catch, I completely missed those lines. Kate's absence makes much more sense to me now, thanks!

My argument about whether Adam could have caused his daughter's leukemia is hardly quibbling, and given that it's fan speculation not canon, makes my question totally legitimate. The amount of radiation needed to cause leukemia is quite intense, and would need to be very focused to only effect one girl.

From what I've learned benzene or other carcinogenic chemicals can also cause leukemia in a person, so it doesn't necessarily need to be radiation, IMO.

Though I do mostly agree with Realm's point, if Helen being able to freeze an embryo almost a century before that was a viable procedure is plausible, then I think a lot of the other seemingly anachronistic technology can also be considered plausible.

[LadyGalaxyJ]

I was thinking it was very far advanced because of when Tesla handed Will a file with test results, and it said it had spread to the lymph nodes/organs, and the spine. That's pretty far advanced for just a few days time. Unless it has something to do with whatever type of radiation it is. Helen did say something about it being the kind of radiation the human body should never be exposed to or some such thing. Not that there's any kind the human body should be exposed to. But she made it sound like something worse that "normal" kinds of radiation.

Plus, it looks from the previews that Adam is still on his feet. And if he's going to "lead" them anywhere, he's going to need to be on his feet quite a bit.

That was the only explanation I needed on Helen's part. It made sense IMO.

[Mandysg1]

If they keep raising the bar, I'll never be able to see above it

Another winner by our Sanctuary team, I really liked how it started as a continuation from Breach. You could definitely tell who won the fight

Adam/ Hyde is such a good villian, what's best is Ian Tracey does not play it over the top. I really enjoyed the flashback scenes, the costuming was excellent, the way the story unravelled in front us was really well done, in the pacing and being interwoven with the present. We learned so much about Helen's background with the five and Adam. Now I know that Adam wasn't an abnormal, but something much worse and dangerous....a genious with an evil split personality.

I also liked how we got a contrast in the story telling of Adam's and Helen's versions. I think Adam's view is skewed to how he thinks or believes it happened, his illness playing a part in that.

And now for the revelation that Helen has the same radiation poisoning as Adam, and he wanted her to jump into the rift with him....I have to say, I didn't see that set up. Now we have a new pressing adventure, find the Hollow city and a cure for Helen, these episodes have kept me glued to my seat, and wanting more...Is it Friday yet?

[xPointOfOriginx]

I LOVE that Adam is just your normal, everyday lunatic and not an abnormal, much more compelling. I am loving how we are seeing another side to Magnus, she's actually pretty selfish and callous albeit in a charming and compassionate way. Some great lines in this episode too, love the part about Will being the concubine, when Magnus says 'How old are you? Walking about with a gun like this...' BRILLIANT!

[Rocky89]

So, now I have my answer to last week's question about Helen killing Adam. She didn't! Kudos to the Sanctuary folk for the way this was played out over the two episodes.

My take on the 5 going after Adam: they originally had in mind just to stop him and take him prisoner. I think this changed when they saw the machine to poison the water supply. However, even after that Helen still hesitated and only shot him in the arm. Great to speculate on whether she would have killed him if he had not jumped off the cliff.

Well said. I'm glad they didn't make Helen look a killer, but someone who actually tried to help him. I like to think all the wanted to do is catch, but things did change when they saw what he was up to. Well, she did warm him that the second shot would be worse, and he did say that her legacy would be that she killed him, so maybe when he threw himself off the cliff, he wanted to die to make her feel guilty about it.

Finally, I am now a convert to the new opening theme music.

I liked it from the start. In fact, today at work I found myself singing it.

Spoiler:

Even Amanda says she dances to it when she hears it.

i've now watched it twice. i have mixed feelings on this, but not b/c it's not well done or anything. i think it's just kind of left me a bit sad-like...

random --

*i'm not a helen/john shipper (i haven't found anyone with helen i find WOW like i did with sam/jack), but that scene where she lays down with him was very beautifully done and poignant. well done, amanda!

It was a very touching moment, I think that even though he's done a lot to hurt her, she knows it's not really his fault, and she's taken a chance by letting him get closer to her.

*i did NOT like finding out helen was dying of radiation poisoning! okay, i cheated a bit and looked in a thread i shouldn't have (so i knew), but the way it was presented here, with will saying about her having chemo... that was waaaay to normal and made me feel like helen's got cancer. nitpicking, i know, but i'd prefer she was sick and dying from something abnormal or exotic, then something so many of our population suffers and dies from. it's too close to home.

She'll be OK, honey. You can trust me, everyone does.

*so the 5 agreed to bring in adam b/c he was a murdering menace, AND b/c it would make their own lives much easier... i like the slightly tarnished color on this, for all of them *and* helen.

It goes to show you that they're... human and they'll do what's right and still be rewarded too.

so all in all, another fine ep from the sanctuary ptb!!

Duh.

if i were will, i'd do everything to make sure helen survived... which is why, right after helen was saved, she'd fire me.

Me too. Whatever Will and the others decide to do, I believe they're doing it for Helen's best interest, even if she doesn't approve. She may not care about what happens to her, but they do, and if Adam can help save her, then they may have to work with him.

did you notice when will was finished saying that, he started to laugh? i think amanda lost it a bit after he said it and robin just tried to go on. but it continued to work, b/c when they showed helen, she had a smirk on her face too, and didn't mind whipping tesla. (but i still think amanda and robin had a bit of probs doing that scene )

I didn't, I'll have to go back and look at that part.

This storyline has quite frankly elevated Sanctuary to the next level for me. The last episode was quite frankly one of the best things I've seen in sci-fi in a long time and this, while not quite as epic, continued the brilliance.

If Sanctuary didn't have those slightly lesser bottle episodes I'd be willing to call it the best sci-fi show on TV.

Damn straight.

another thing...

i loved helen's white shirt when she went to get john!

Me too.

[Rocky89]

yeah. Helen went through the rift once. Adam, oh i lost count but 50+ times or so???? plus adam had exposed skin twice.

one would think adam, a regular mortal vs helen, with her longevity, his greater exposure, her lesser exposure, wouldn't be quite as sick or it'd be slower in her.

then again, maybe she can be chronic for months before succumbing...and i bet adam does right about the time the actor's contract ends

Agreed, he went through the rift so many times, and she went through it once for a short time, so he should be dying much faster than her. LOL at the contract comment.

possibility of why helen's poisoning is as big as adam's...

'breach' spoilers

Spoiler:

when helen kept coming upon those disk thingies in the ceiling; what if *those* were the things that upped her radiation poisoning to adam's level? she didn't know what they were, and even stabbed one (and got electrocuted). so?...

Spoiler:

She was zapped/shocked by one, so maybe that accelerated her condition. But what about Henry and Tesla, they both touched it, so is there any danger to them? Then again, it was offline when they touched it.

in the part where helen was explaining to will about going through time (insert techno babble), she then made a remark about it sounding so ridiculous (i think that was her word for it) when saying it...

that *so* reminded me of the stuff sam had had to say, so i wonder if that was in inside joke?

I thought of Stargate when Helen started talking about time and space.

If they keep raising the bar, I'll never be able to see above it

Another winner by our Sanctuary team, I really liked how it started as a continuation from Breach. You could definitely tell who won the fight

Adam/ Hyde is such a good villian, what's best is Ian Tracey does not play it over the top. I really enjoyed the flashback scenes, the costuming was excellent, the way the story unravelled in front us was really well done, in the pacing and being interwoven with the present. We learned so much about Helen's background with the five and Adam. Now I know that Adam wasn't an abnormal, but something much worse and dangerous....a genious with an evil split personality.

I also liked how we got a contrast in the story telling of Adam's and Helen's versions. I think Adam's view is skewed to how he thinks or believes it happened, his illness playing a part in that.

And now for the revelation that Helen has the same radiation poisoning as Adam, and he wanted her to jump into the rift with him....I have to say, I didn't see that set up. Now we have a new pressing adventure, find the Hollow city and a cure for Helen, these episodes have kept me glued to my seat, and wanting more...Is it Friday yet?

Good review, the show just keeps better and better.

[llp]

It could be that because of the cut on Helen's hand, it made her more susceptible. Plus Adam knew that just entering the rift was all he needed to make her sick.

[meredithchandler73]

*adam said he was brought back from the brink of death, but i think he *was* dead. i mean, how could he not, being face down in the water like that? so he was lying to helen about that, and 'why'? if he was brought back from death itself, does that make any difference on the cure, or what you're like after you're brought back?

Well, Will was dead and he didn't come back "wrong" so maybe it's not really about being dead or close to death.

I'm not going to multi-quote here - too many to go through. I've been away from this forum for a long while and it's SOOOO nice to be back again. There's always such great discussion here. More random thoughts:

I can't figure out how Adam could possibly have known about Hollow Earth in advance of jumping off the cliff, or been sure that he would get there and be saved. Then again, Gregory had the pieces of the map somewhere around this time (he gave those gifts to Helen when she turned 26 and 34, right?) - and presumably he knew their significance when he gave them to her. Could something similar have happened to Gregory that happened to Will? That Gregory somehow encountered the Avatar Council from Hollow Earth and his memory was wiped clean and he was allowed to live and return? With Will, the reason he was so troubled when he came back was that Gregory sent him a message that he urgently had to recall, but he wasn't able to recall. His might was not letting him sleep because he knew it was something very important.

I had the thought that Tesla was a bit tamer than he has been in the past, but I think that has been the case ever since he was de-vamped. And he talks about his last encounter with Druitt - he is an ex-vamp while Druitt is still a stone cold killer. Tesla was afraid of John in a way he hadn't been when he was a vampire. And then there was the "humbling" moment as he is faced with all the technology he has never seen and had never dreamt of. I think it's all strikes just the right tone. He is a fantastic character and Jonathan Young is fabulous. Tesla/Jonathan Young never let me down.

I didn't think that Robin starting to laugh at the end of the "whipping Tesla" line was a goof - I thought that was how he chose to play the line. Everything was so serious and although he was serious about making Tesla find some cure, saying, "We will whip Tesla like a rented mule" is not something you say with a straight face anyway. I thought it was played just right as was Helen's response.

I've been reading the thoughts about whether Adam may have actually made his own daughter ill or if it was possible to give someone leukemia at that time. Another thought crossed my mind: what if she hadn't really been his daughter? An already sick child he "adopted" for the purpose of getting "in" with The Five. I'd gathered it's been a while since they were in school together, so how would they know if he were lying about having a daughter or not? I'm not really sure how I feel about the whole theory of using the sick child - whether it was his daughter or not, whether she had really been sick or made sick.

I'm a little pissed at Will. I understand him being upset because he didn't want any more secrets, but to think that it wasn't right for The Five to go after a dangerous individual like Adam is just stupid. And she didn't outright kill him but tried to bring him in and stop him. Well, now Helen will be pissed at Will since it's obvious he will agree to show Adam the map.

I wish I had a better ear for accents. I can't figure out in the flashbacks if we're getting hints of Adam's split personalities before the death of his daughter.

As much as I do believe Tesla wants to help save Helen, I think he would be very happy to find Hollow Earth and the secret to Adam's longevity, access to all that superior technology, etc. It would be too much to hope they'd know of some way he could become a vampire again - since there were safeguards in place to keep vampires from finding the city.

I cannot say enough how much I love that moment where Helen lays down with John. Hmmm...wonder if there is some secret in Hollow Earth that may help Druitt?!??!

I mentioned before, when Helen was talking to Adam on the cliff she said: "You should have listened to me. It needn't have come to this." What exactly did she tell him? And then Adam says, "You were wrong about me Helen. You can't even admit it now, can you?" What exactly is he referring to?

I'm not the only one that was tickled by Helen's line, "How old are you?!? Walking about with a gun like this, you should be ashamed!" The thing is, if I were as little as her (and I think I am), I'd choose a really big gun for protection, too!

The first flashback to Adam's daughter - where Helen and James diagnose her and rather abruptly say, "You have my condolences" and walk out seemed off to me. Rewatch that scene - Helen is so dispassionate and unemotional. If, in fact, it was discovered that the girl had a rare form of leukemia and there was nothing to be done, Helen would have not told him in such a cold, unfeeling manner. I'm more likely to believe Helen's version - that they did try to save the girl (but of course, not using the source blood).