For King & Country (308)

[Briangate78]

Excellent episode, even though it was slow moving it was very interesting. The show seems to be getting deeper and deeper. I am really looking forward to the next episode. I hope this story-line continues all the way into the end of the season.

[Skydiver]

I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and decicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

I do like that they were basically blackmailed into stopping adam. got a very big 'league of extraordinary gentlemen' vibe off it all. They did what they had to do to survive as a group and as people.

I think it also sheds light on helen and Bertha...her distaste for being told to do stuff she doesn't want to do and finding ways around it. ways to do what she thinks is best instead of what others want.

Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.

[sanctuary girl]

And once again, Ian Tracey is brilliant - scary but brilliant.

That is so right. After last weeks episode I was impressed by his talent but this week was way better. It's soooo creepy when he goes from nice and friendly to evil. He is the best villain I have ever seen on TV

The moment between Helen and John, when she crawled into his bed was just sad. Her whole bodylanguage shouted loneliness and broken heart. She was hurt by him but is still deeply loves him ( and that despite the fact that I'm one of the Teslen shipper )

[Skydiver]

the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

[MidwifeOnBoard]

I haven't rewatched yet, but a couple of nitpicky things that bugged me were the bad medicine things. 1. Helen wearing a t-shirt under her scrubs while scrubbing into the OR? No way. 2. The whole injecting into veins they do in this show. And not only did she do it on both John and Imogen, she did it twice into the same vein with John. a. She should have been giving John IM injections and b. once you inject into or draw blood from a vein you have to find another one because that one collapses temporarily. There is a reason why junkies have needle marks all over their body and not just in the antecubital vein. 3. John's IV in the infirmary appeared to be pointing in the wrong direction. IV cannulas need to be pointed towards the heart, not the fingers to get the fluids/meds into circulation quickly. *sigh*

I still loved this episode, don't get me wrong, but they are so meticulous about timeline and other things because scifi fans are so detail oriented, you'd think someone on the staff would have a friend or family member who is a nurse or doctor who they could ask about this stuff.

On Will saying (paraphrasing, of course), "This entire thing was built on the blood of a dead man."
If you've listened to the episode's promo, I was led to believe that the 'thing' Will was talking about what the city. (I hope I wasn't the only one?) I must admit, I was surprised and hadn't really made the link myself before he actually blurted it out in front of Magnus. Btw, I though this entire exchange was one of the high points of the episode. It was believable and true. I liked Will remembering Helen about the "no secrets" clause of his 'contract'.

I actually assumed he was talking about the Sanctuary in the promos. It's about time there was some tension between Helen and Will. He is a bit too much her puppy dog most of the time. I too thought the argument was great.

Honnestly, I don't really mind. I just ask myself why Nikola brought that to attention?
Perhaps since he knew Magnus didn't want to show Adam the map, he thought someone else who doesn't want Magnus dead should make the decision.
But knowing Tesla, I'm pretty sure he ALSO has a selfish reason for doing it. (Read here: I believe he wants to help Helen, but maybe help himself also?)

Yes, with Nikola there is always a selfish underlying motive, isn't there? But in this case, I believe that saving Helen is his primary motive because she certainly won't save herself.

I thought it was weird of the PM to tell her it was odd she's a scientist because she's a woman, but I'm glad she told him to address her as "Doctor" a bit later.

During that time, it was not only unusual for a woman to be a physician and a scientist, it was considered to be eccentric and unnatural by most of society. Women were barely people in the eyes of the law at that time, don't forget. Her place in society was to marry and produce children, and she was essentially the property of her husband when she married.

1. It also makes you kinda wonder which version of Imogen's death is real, Adam's or Helen's. Sure we'd like to side with her because she's the hero of the show, but I wonder if the truth isn't somewhere in between. Same with the deal the Five struck with the King, how much was it truly to stop Adam and how much to preserve their work and futures.

2. Yeah, that was odd. Biggie could have been away on a mission, but it was very odd to see Kate just disappear like that. Though the episode was busy enough with everyone else.

1. I had similar thoughts. I think we are too quick to take Helen's version as the absolute truth just because she is the hero of the series. She's shown enough moral ambiguity both earlier and certainly in tonight's back story that all has to be taken with a grain of truth. Also, who knows if her version of Adam's death is the right one either?

2. I am glad they didn't try to explain away Kate and Biggie's absence. They were not integral to tonight's story and that is fine with me. It's been established that the Sanctuary staff go on missions both together and in small groups. I think we can simply assume that they were away on missions.

[jckfan55]

Good episode. Lots of important story elements and character moments.

It started off strong and stayed at a high level, imho.

I liked that the story picked up directly from the last one in this case. I liked H, T & Will's concern for Helen's injuries. Will points out points out that Magnus has a concussion & she snaps at him (she's still in battle/crisis? mode)--excellent stuff.

I liked seeing the young Five. I liked the differences in the Adam vs Magnus stories about what happened. For example, Helen's clothes and hair, along with her manner are different in the different versions. Great attention to detail.

The Magnus Druitt nap was quite heartwrenching. I almost thought it was going to go into a flashback of a similar moment in their past, but you know, you didn't need it. imho, your imagination can take you there

looking forward to the next ep.

[2Shy]

The word that springs to mind when watching this ep is beautiful. Yeah, this was a beautiful episode. The performances, the look (especially the flashbacks), the music, and the viz effects. Since Lee Wilson himself directed this episode I can’t help but think Anthem pushed the effects a few notches further in this episode.
Again amazing character interaction from everyone and Ian Tracey doing a fantastic job once again.

I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

In the case of Adam’s daughter I like to believe the truth lies somewhere in between the two versions we saw. To me it was clear that Adam came to Helen and Watson so they would help her by injecting her with the source blood. But what if in the end they did not do that, instead trying to help her through conventional and other experimental treatments, and failed.

But of course the big thing about this episode: Helen and John. She still loves him. *sigh* I’ve said it before and I say it again; this relationship is do delightfully messed up, and there’s just layers and layers of issues, and feelings and this bond between these two that seems unbreakable. And love.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but the scene where she lays down with him, that was Amanda’s idea, right? Think I read something like that in a report from TSE, can anyone that was there confirm?

And LMAO at the male concubine comments to Will. Helen obviously being stone-faced when Adam mentions it the first time, but the looks on Will and Tesla’s faces; big lol!

[Skydiver]

I too thought will's comment about 'built on the blood of a dead man' referred to the sanctuary. Simply because i always assumed when adam said 'do what you were sent to do' i figured that helen was assassinating him on someone's orders, not just for kicks and giggles.

as to imogene and helen and adam, well I hold hte opinion that Hyde killed Adam's child to get the source blood. Whether or not adam realizes it we don't know. but there are times when i get the impression that the disassociative disorder is almost like being possessed by a goauld, in that the submissive personality at the time may not even be aware of what the dominant personality is doing. so Hyde could have poisoned immogene somehow and Adam doesn't even know it. My suspicion is supported by the response when Watson and Helen say no and walk out, it's almost a 'damn, didn't work' attitude rather than the desperation of a parent.

One thing...when helen is going to shoot adam, he says that he's been in the city before.

Adam: How Quaint. A woman with a firearm.

Magnus: You should have listened to me. It needn't have come to this.

Adam: And yet, here we are. (recognize this? helen says it to Terrance in Kali 3)

Magnus: Did you think they would just ignore you? Let you spread your chaos unchecked?

Adam: There is something you need to know, Helen. About this place. It's stupendous.

Magnus: Stop. I know you're doing. More talk until he can save it with his anger.

Adam: Then what are you waiting for? I know why you are here. What is your task is. Go ahead and finish. Finish it!

soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

[MidwifeOnBoard]

1. The word that springs to mind when watching this ep is beautiful. Yeah, this was a beautiful episode. The performances, the look (especially the flashbacks), the music, and the viz effects. Since Lee Wilson himself directed this episode I can’t help but think Anthem pushed the effects a few notches further in this episode.
Again amazing character interaction from everyone and Ian Tracey doing a fantastic job once again.

2. I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

3. But of course the big thing about this episode: Helen and John. She still loves him. *sigh* I’ve said it before and I say it again; this relationship is do delightfully messed up, and there’s just layers and layers of issues, and feelings and this bond between these two that seems unbreakable. And love.

4. And LMAO at the male concubine comments to Will. Helen obviously being stone-faced when Adam mentions it the first time, but the looks on Will and Tesla’s faces; big lol!

1. Agreed. Though they needed to use a filter for at least the Oxford flashbacks. I didn't buy any of those actors as 25 year old scientists. Though I agree that the overall look of the flashbacks was quite stunning.

2. Yes. Black and white is so boring. Glad to see they are shaking up our comfort in the Sanctuary's moral rectitude.

3. It is a lovely, complicated, totally frakked up relationship. Wonderful.

4. Hee! Yes.

[kes]

Btw, where was Kate?

Who cares? Perfect proof that she's pointless. *dodges tomatoes thrown by Kate lovers*
I did miss Biggie thou. I was like: Man he'd be all over Magnus, trying to take care of her

I'll try to review this magnificent ep after my 10th viewing

[2Shy]

Just a quick question, what exactly does Tesla say over the speaker? I can't make it out.

"Good afternoon _______ our guest is awake."

Anyone care to fill in the blanks?

[jasminaGo]

Just a quick question, what exactly does Tesla say over the speaker? I can't make it out.

"Good afternoon _______ our guest is awake."

Anyone care to fill in the blanks?

I think it was

"Good afternoon K-Mart shoppers our guest is awake."

[2Shy]

I think it was

"Good afternoon K-Mart shoppers our guest is awake."

LMAO! Yeah, I heart it now, thanks!

[Rocky89]

I really loved this episode! Some of my random thoughts:
--Right at the beginning Tesla notices Helen is hurt. I don't ship them, but that just struck me - I love that!!!

It seems everyone notices Helen's hurt first before anyone else.

--I loved how the flashbacks looked! And Helen in the flashbacks - GORGEOUS!

She's always gorgeous, past and present.

--The Telsa-Henry scenes are adorable!

Agreed, Tesla was was considered to be a great inventor and scientist, so seeing him working with Henry, with his modern time tech is a treat to see.

--First look at Adam once he has recovered in the infirmary - Helen did a good job of beating up on him! Well done!

Helen knows how to get butt.

--I liked the Jello reference. (SG1!)

I didn't get it until now.

--Helen is in Cambodia. Of course she speaks Cambodian. Love how she handled herself with the people protecting Druitt. Not really sure I liked the vis effect when Helen disarmed the girl though. We don't usually see any is effects with any of Helen's "action moves".

I didn't noticed she was speaking Cambodian, I'll have to go back and listen. I thought the effect was kinda cool, and reminded me of a Smallville effect. Helen does move fast, we saw that in Kali 3.

--Of course Helen didn't actually murder Adam's daughter, but of course he wouldn't see it that way.
--I was shocked kind of shocked in last week's episode to think Helen really killed Adam. Her non-lethal shot seemed much more likely.

I think the way it was set up last week, to give us a little peak into their past, and leave us to get an idea of what happened, then give us the full story this week. I do believe Helen tried to save his daughter, I'm not sure when she and Watson choose to go back and try and help her, but I guess Adam wouldn't see it like that.

I was glad to see what really happened on the cliff, and I'm glad that Helen didn't actually kill Adam, he threw himself off the cliff, and Helen just wanted to wound him.

--Awww…Helen and John lying together. I'm getting weepy!!! We have never seen Helen with her guard down like this except with Ashley. Wow.

That was a very touching scene, it shows there's still something there and she may be able to forgive him yet again for all she's done.

--Druitt has never stopped loving Helen. When told Helen would never stop chasing him he said he hoped that was so.

I'm glad he was actually able to tell her that in Haunted, and that he was able to actually mean it since he was free of the entity.

Will needs to step off his high horse and look at the bigger picture. Adam was a mass killer. He wanted to kill thousands of people and if left alone he would have tried to do it again. The 'perks' the British government promised everyone were just that, perks. If The Five knew just how dangerous Adam really was they probably would have acted regardless, at least Helen and James if not the others. It's not like Helen actually killed him, he threw himself off, but it's a testament to her character that she does feel responsible for everything.

Very well said, Jas. They always thought Adam was a bit off, I like to think that even if the PM hadn't promised them any perks, they probably would have tried to stop him anyway, had they done nothing, Adam would have killed all those people with the cyanide, and it's a good bet he wouldn't have stopped there.

Although I don't think Will has a high horse, I think he was just surprised at what he was learning, and what not. But I did like a lot when he went back to Adam the last time and gave him attitude.

I think, with helen and druitt, she did it as much for herself as anything. She finally got to admit that she was scared. Adam had scared the crap out of her, and with druitt - conveniently unconscious - she could admit how scared she was. I think that's what was behind her jumping on will in the beginning. she was operating on adrenaline and fear adn was super defensive.

That's a good way of looking at it, Sky. I do hope you're right, and I like to think she trusts John enough to let her guard down with him.

tesla and the charter: he did it to save helen. Because he knew she'd never allow adam access, even if it killed her, and Tesla wasn't going to let that happen. There's something between Tesla and adam. Because Tesla seemed very concerned and very 'down' and dedicated to fixing things. so i think there's some heavy history between them.

Will will allow adam to help, even if it pisses helen off, because he'll save her, even if he has to save her from herself.

I think it also sheds light on helen and Bertha...her distaste for being told to do stuff she doesn't want to do and finding ways around it. ways to do what she thinks is best instead of what others want.

the biggest reason i think will was arguing with helen is that he recognized her trauma. he knows what ptsd looks like, knows that she was damn scared and reacting primally in that ware house, and he knows her emotions are clouding her judgment. Just like he knows how to manipulate Adam and recognizes Adam for what he is.

Will was calling her on it, just like she'd told him to do last season or so.

Helen is in such an autonomous position, she really needs people to call her on stuff, needs people to question her. And i think she trusts will to do it not to tear her down, but to build her up.

I think overall Will is just concerned for her, he knows she took a beating, and I think he puts her well being over that of Adam, since he was the one who started all this. I like to think that the main reason Tesla brought up the charter is to save Helen's life, even it does make him look bad to her. I also like to believe that they all have Helen's best interest at heart, and they are not doing this to be disloyal or betray her, they just want her to live, and I think they would do whatever they had to do to keep her alive, even if that meant doing something she didn't like or approve of.

[Rocky89]

I had similar thoughts. I think we are too quick to take Helen's version as the absolute truth just because she is the hero of the series. She's shown enough moral ambiguity both earlier and certainly in tonight's back story that all has to be taken with a grain of truth. Also, who knows if her version of Adam's death is the right one either?

I absolutely love the fact that the Sanctuary have a few skeletons in its closet, a few questionable moral issues beneath the surface. I mean, after 100 years there’s bound to be mistakes made and errors of judgment. Not to mention how moral and ethical issues is fluent with time. The fives hunt for Adam was justified and he did indeed jump off the cliff himself, but I do believe there are a few gray areas here that hasn’t been truly revealed.

In the case of Adam’s daughter I like to believe the truth lies somewhere in between the two versions we saw. To me it was clear that Adam came to Helen and Watson so they would help her by injecting her with the source blood. But what if in the end they did not do that, instead trying to help her through conventional and other experimental treatments, and failed.

I believe Helen's version of how Adam "died" is the right one. In Breach we thought Helen just shot him in the chest, and he fell into the water, but in this episode we see that Helen shot him in the shoulder, not to kill him, but to wound him. If she had shot him in the chest, he would have fallen into the water and most likely would have died, and had a gunshot wound on his shirt. Also, when Adam was telling his version of what happened to Will, when he was in the water with John, he had a gunshot wound to the shoulder, not the chest, consisting of Helen's version, if Adam's version was all true, he wouldn't have that wound there, but in his chest, and when the "avatars" pulled him out of the water, he still had a gunshot wound to his shoulder, all consisting of Helen's version. That's why I believe Helen wanted to wound him, but he choose to throw himself off the cliff.

As to his daughter, I still think both Helen and Adam's version can be true, just that the story was told out of order. When he asked Helen and Watson to help, she turned him down, but then came back to help him using actual 1880 medicine, instead of the source blood. When that didn't work, she died, and that's when we saw him alone with her when she passed away. I think that's why Adam blames her and Watson, because she used conventional medicne and not the source blood.

as to imogene and helen and adam, well I hold hte opinion that Hyde killed Adam's child to get the source blood. Whether or not adam realizes it we don't know. but there are times when i get the impression that the disassociative disorder is almost like being possessed by a goauld, in that the submissive personality at the time may not even be aware of what the dominant personality is doing. so Hyde could have poisoned immogene somehow and Adam doesn't even know it. My suspicion is supported by the response when Watson and Helen say no and walk out, it's almost a 'damn, didn't work' attitude rather than the desperation of a parent.

One thing...when helen is going to shoot adam, he says that he's been in the city before

soooo.....was the whole thing a ploy? did adam run, find refuge in the hollow earth, get kicked out and get back in? or maybe find it, but can't get in, and is willing to 'die' to see if they'll take him in? (not out of the line if hte man also killed his daughter just to get the source blood)

so was the whole thing one giant manipulation?

Wow, great thoery, I hope that's the case.