For King & Country (308)

[MidwifeOnBoard]

1. Druitt is back. I'm curious about his current mental state and how much his homicidal tendecies will affect his behavior in the next eps. The scene where Helen laid next to him was pretty poignant, it showed how vurnelable she felt at the moment.

2. The Tesla/Henry scenes were adorable. Henry is such a fanboy. We need a full episode where they team up.

1. I hope hope hope they don't do anything to exorcise Druitt's demon in Hollow Earth. Homicidal Druitt battling with the inner demon is so much more interesting.

2. Love that they are both such geeks.

I can sympathize with Will's horror. What happened was akin to..oh the conspiracy theories that abound about WWII and that there was a case when, thanks to cracking enigma, the allies knew an attack was coming to a certain place, but they didn't react, because had they reacted and stopped it, then the germans would have known the enigma had been broken and would have changed codes, so a few were sacrificed so the germans would keep using the enigma machine.

Can you explain this more completely? I mean this in all sincerity. I am having trouble trying to reconcile the suspected murder of one person (and I understand that one person is the whole world to their loved ones) with the systemic slaughter of over 6 million. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what I'm reading.

[suse]

1. I hope hope hope they don't do anything to exorcise Druitt's demon in Hollow Earth. Homicidal Druitt battling with the inner demon is so much more interesting.

2. Love that they are both such geeks.

1) Oh, I agree. I don't really like him all hearts and flowers. It creeps me out.
2)

Can you explain this more completely? I mean this in all sincerity. I am having trouble trying to reconcile the suspected murder of one person (and I understand that one person is the whole world to their loved ones) with the systemic slaughter of over 6 million. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's what I'm reading.

No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

[samcartersg1]

It occurred to me while rewatching this episode today that Helen must have been pregnant with Ashley during the flashback episodes when they were tracking Adam since John disappeared right after. I wonder how far along she was and how long after she found out?

[MidwifeOnBoard]

1. Oh, I agree. I don't really like him all hearts and flowers. It creeps me out.


2. No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

1. LOL.

2. Ah, I see. Thank you.

[suse]

I don't think it was so much the killing as Adam was going to commit mass murder but the secret that she kept from Will. One could argue that Helen has the right to her privacy. But an event so crucial to the development to the Sanctuary network and ultimaltel his job is enough to be ticked off. Thats a pretty big secret to keep from your employee

She didn't kill him. He jumped. Upon rewatching,, that might not have been entirely clear to Will as she said she took actions that she deeply regrets to this day. But if we were shown it, she should have told Will it.

Well, perhaps none of us should be buying anything Mitsubishi as they used American POWs as forced labor. The same ones that were in the Bataan Death Marches. Where's the outrage? That was only 70 years ago, not 100...

[jelgate]

She didn't kill him. He jumped. Upon rewatching,, that might not have been entirely clear to Will as she said she took actions that she deeply regrets to this day. But if we were shown it, she should have told Will it.

Well, perhaps none of us should be buying anything Mitsubishi as they used American POWs as forced labor. The same ones that were in the Bataan Death Marches. Where's the outrage? That was only 70 years ago, not 100...

Its really a sematic point as Helen had every intent of killing him if she had too. It was more about the secret then killing Adam

[suse]

Its really a sematic point as Helen had every intent of killing him if she had too. It was more about the secret then killing Adam

It's the whole "if she had to" She didn't do it for money. It was in defence of innocents. And at that point, herself. She was willing to not kill him. More than.

[Skydiver]

1)

No, this was one situation during the war. If the Allies had used the information and stopped what the Germans planned to do, the Germans would have changed the code and all the intel would have been lost. It was deemed more strategic to sacrifice for that battle and use the information gathered in a fashion that would turn the tide of the whole war not 'just' save a few people.

yeah. I can't remember what it was exactly. It's just if the allies warned the targeted people, had them change their course, evac the town, whatever, the germans would have known enigma had been cracked. So they - very reluctantly - sacrificed some lives for the greater good - which was the end of the war.

[Skydiver]

an observation....as helen got older, her hair has gotten darker....symbolic maybe? as the years have gone on she's lost her 'innocence' (blond) and gets slowly and slowly darker

[MidwifeOnBoard]

an observation....as helen got older, her hair has gotten darker....symbolic maybe? as the years have gone on she's lost her 'innocence' (blond) and gets slowly and slowly darker

AT mentioned in a couple of Tapping Tuesdays that Helen experimented with different hair colors during her life because only keeping one would have gotten boring or somesuch.

[RealmOfX]

yeah. I can't remember what it was exactly. It's just if the allies warned the targeted people, had them change their course, evac the town, whatever, the germans would have known enigma had been cracked. So they - very reluctantly - sacrificed some lives for the greater good - which was the end of the war.

It was the bombing of Coventry. A claim was made, and published in a book, in the 1970's about what you are talking about but others in the Ultra Project have denied that they knew the location.

[Rocky89]

It's not just you--I think so too. it's one of his flaws--though perhaps a function of his being a mere kid compared to Magnus.

I have no problem with Will challenging Magnus, but sometimes i feel like --oh will, if you only knew all the facts you wouldn't be so quick to judge. In this case I thought he'd press her for info not make some dramatic statement about founding the Sanctuary on the blood of a dead man

I have noticed that Will often makes (sometimes very big) judgments/assumptions without having all (or even enough) of the facts. Like his "treatment" with the 3 women in Fata Morgana. He didn't have all the information, so he assumed he could use whatever his training was to counsel them, and he was sooooo far off the mark with them, it made him look rather ridiculous. Maybe more so because of where they were found, and him now knowing about the Sanctuary and the work it does. One would think he would start speculating in a bit different direction in his counseling given where he now lives and works.

With Adam, he only has a small portion of the facts, and he's already making really big judgments about Helen, the Sanctuary, the Five. Will seems to be easily led by some people and he falls easily for their stories, and is at times proven really wrong.

Well said to you both, one example I can think of is in Folding Man, when he believed the guy that he was the good guy, and that he needed gold to live or something. Anyway, he believed him, and he ended up being captured and almost lead the team into a trap. I still like Will, but sometimes he needs all the facts.

i had an idea about adam....in the flashback they were talking about adam, and the experiment he did with Dormice, his 'monograph on forced tissue regeneration' and that the dormice grew two heads....what if adam's split personality is a result of his experiments?

remember teh Trek eps, where we have good kirk and bad kirk? What if it was just the opposite, instead of 2 personalities in 2 bodies, adam split himself into 2 personalities in one body. and if he was a self created abnormal it could support his idea that he belonged with the sanctuary crew and needed to be part of them, because he was special just like they were

Damn, you always come up with good ideas.

as much as i automatically stick up for helen (), i kind of like the flaws and off-whiteness of her.

i also like will (or anyone) calling helen out on her mistakes, but in this instance, i really didn't see what will was getting so mad about. unless, like i said in a previous post, he felt a bit defensive *for* adam, b/c of his mental illness.

Yeah, but he went back to Adam and got mad with him for leading him on about what happened. And yeah, I always automatically stick up for Helen.

if adam's split personality came out, as will said, b/d of his daughter dying, then what did helen (and prob the others) feel was off about adam?

for some reason, i feel adam was already mr splitty, but the stresses of everything going on then finally put him over the edge. but i could be wrong, but that only happens when i'm not right.

Well, at some point, I think it was Watson who said something about Adam starting a fire or something, so maybe around that time they thought he was a bit off. Also, maybe he had some weird ideas even they thought was odd.

OMG what a EPPY....this was awesome....awesome......and of course as a shipper i am so glad (i thin i read somewhere it was AT's decesion) that Helen laid down beside John. We just finished seeing kick ass Helen, only to see her as a woman now needing to be held by her lover, who she knows she can't have ...ahhh the angst.....they are killing us and i'm loving it..... Amanda Tapping is brilliant...a MASTER at her craft.

Amanda is the queen Enough said.

how I look at will....well who else was going to play the devil's advocate in this one?
adam? - nah
Tesla? - no, he's on helen's side about what happened because he was there
Henry? - no, henry is devoted to the doc and is frankly ticked off at this adam dude for hurting her.
Biggie? - maybe, but, likely out of kindness to chris, biggie was absent
Kate? - maybe, but she wasn't there
Druitt? - also on helen's side

Good list. I believe they're all on Helen's side, and considering what they know about Adam, they don't trust him, but if they're going to save Helen's life, they may need Adam's help.

AT mentioned in a couple of Tapping Tuesdays that Helen experimented with different hair colors during her life because only keeping one would have gotten boring or somesuch.

I want to see Helen in the 1960 and 1970's.

[sci-fied]

Was anyone else a little disappointed that cyanide was the toxin Adam intended to release in the city's gaslines? For someone supposedly so intelligent, I was certain he could do better than simple cyanide...

[jelgate]

It's the whole "if she had to" She didn't do it for money. It was in defence of innocents. And at that point, herself. She was willing to not kill him. More than.

I doublt the guiding reason she shot Adam given all his cyanide but it would foolish to think the incentive the prime minster offered Helen wasn't a factor.

[Chelle DB]

I was just wondering if Helen's condition is much more deteriorated like Adams not only because she went through the rift with him but also because she was stuck in the time bubble with him, plus the cut on her hand plus the zap from the device...maybe all three incidents sped up the process in her. While Will & Kate were trapped in the time bubble too, they were "frozen" while Helen was active within it. Maybe it all contributes to her rapid deterioration. Just a thought that came to me when I was so desperately trying to sleep last night.
Oh and as for Adam having something to do with Imogen's death, I'm kinda torn on that - maybe it was his dark side that harmed her but I get the impression that Adam back then wasn't as brutal as he is now.
And I like the idea that perhaps the Five, once they saw the poison that Adam was going to release, was what sealed the deal in destroying him rather than capturing & keeping him. He was just too big a risk.
And Helen, when she shot Adam, a non fatal shot, that just shows that she really doesn't like to kill anything or anyone. She really didn't want to do it. But then Adam took all that out of her hands. So Adam's technically wrong in saying that Helen killed him coz she didn't, he tossed himself over the cliff and in the end he survived anyway.
Might re-watch for fun.