Helen Magnus/John Druitt Ship/Discussion/Appreciation

[SamJackShipper93]

I hope she does to. They have had to deal with enough and now they need a chance for them. A little light at the end of a very dark tunnel.

A very dark, very . . . *long* tunnel.

[atlantis_babe34]

bah i jsut love the complexity and the sadness of this relationship.... is that wrong?

[SamJackShipper93]

bah i jsut love the complexity and the sadness of this relationship.... is that wrong?

Not at all.

[atlantis_babe34]

excellent lol.

love this muse song for the dark and twisty couple

Invincible

Follow through
Make your dreams come true
Don't give up the fight
You will be alright
'Cause there's no one like you in the universe

Don't be afraid
What your mind conceives
You should make a stand
Stand up for what you believe
And tonight
We can truly say
Together we're invincible

During the struggle
They will pull us down
But please, please
Let's use this chance
To turn things around
And tonight
We can truly say
Together we're invincible

Do it on your own
It makes no difference to me
What you leave behind
What you choose to be
And whatever they say
Your souls unbreakable

During the struggle
They will pull us down
But please, please
Let's use this chance
To turn things around
And tonight
We can truly say
Together we're invincible
Together we're invincible

During the struggle
They will pull us down
Please, please
Let's use this chance
To turn things around
And tonight
We can truly say
Together we're invincible
Together we're invincible

[AresLover452]

bah i jsut love the complexity and the sadness of this relationship.... is that wrong?

I see nothing wrong with that. i love the pure and utter sadness of what happens between them. It is what draws me to them in the first place.

A very dark, very . . . *long* tunnel.

Just so long as they get out of the tunnel and find some peace and closure with each other.

[AstraPerAspera]

A very dark, very . . . *long* tunnel.

Which is what, IMHO, makes this far more akin to a classic tragedy (see Jenn's description) than a "Romance", either by traditional or modern definition. And why I, personally, can't ever see them with a "happily ever after" stamped in a heart over their fade-to-black kiss. Tragedies don't turn out that way. That's what makes them tragedies.

And frankly, I think I'd be rather disappointed if we did end up with that kind of sticky romantic ending, because I don't think it's true to the characters as they've been developed up to this point, and it totally trivializes everything each of them has been through which has changed, fundamentally, who they used to be. Not that they can't love each other, but by definition of who they've each become, it has to be a completely different kind of love than that of the two people in the carriage back in 1880-something. *That* was the stuff of romance. But a hundred and twenty some years later, battered and wrecked as they both have been, what they have left to give one another isn't going to be the chocolate and roses and sonnet kind of love, but a sort of weary holding onto each other...a quiet, sort of desperate connection that comes when two people have endured too much to ever go back yet know each other's burdens too well to ever set each other free.

So...they get what they want in the end...only not really. And that's tragedy.

Of the very best kind.

[yessika]

I pose a question then go to work for twelve hours...

How clever of me

Putting the entire thing in spoilers so I don't have to get confused every time I mention stuff that happened in Haunted:

Spoiler:

In reading this, I can't help but wonder if maybe when she first found Gregory again she thought that, maybe, she might find redemption in him. A father, after all, is a Very Important person in ones life, and having him back... and able, quite literally, to judge and justify her actions (at the end she is wanting to tell him everything she's been doing...) might in fact be an important step in her finally being able to fine atonement and gain redemption and feel free then to chose happiness. So being happy with *Gregory* might be a very specific sort of Happiness which would, in fact, enable her to find happiness elsewhere. Of course, she fails to find happiness with Gregory which, conversely, might have only made her feel even less worthy of finding it elsewhere... (If even Dad rejects me...) Or, as you bring up atonement, Gregory as her father and mentor might be the one capable of granting her atonement so she can finally be redeemed.

Not that Gregory did, in fact, reject her, of course. I'm speaking of a very visceral emotional reaction here and how it quite likely felt to Helen on a deeply subconscious level.I'd argue, possibly, having it be an external creature actually makes her *more* culpable from her own perspective rather than less because, while it was simply some aspect of John's personality, or some insanity he succumbed to as a result of his power or the blood, it was at least partly his fault. But now, with him as victim of the creature, she becomes in a way fully responsible for his condition.

Of course, I'm assuming that, as you said, because it was her idea and as she even said in The Five, she should go first because of that, I think she did feel the chief responsibility for everything that happened lay on her. It's not necessarily correct, but I think in this issue as pointed out, Helen isn't really led by logic.

*sob* Yes, it is. Truly amazing, and really tragic in a classical way. As described here:

Definition: Tragedy depicts the downfall of a noble hero or heroine, usually through some combination of hubris, fate, and the will of the gods. The tragic hero's powerful wish to achieve some goal inevitably encounters limits, usually those of human frailty (flaws in reason, hubris, society), the gods (through oracles, prophets, fate), or nature. Aristotle says that the tragic hero should have a flaw and/or make some mistake (hamartia). The hero need not die at the end, but he / she must undergo a change in fortune. In addition, the tragic hero may achieve some revelation or recognition (anagnorisis--"knowing again" or "knowing back" or "knowing throughout" ) about human fate, destiny, and the will of the gods. Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate."

If that doesn't describe the situation we're talking about, and apply to both Helen and John, then what does?

And how often does one find true tragedy anywhere, let alone on Television?!?

I'm very glad you posed the question

I already knew it was a true tragedy but it is quite nice to see it fits the actual definition

A very dark, very . . . *long* tunnel.

Yep Yep

bah i jsut love the complexity and the sadness of this relationship.... is that wrong?

Not at all, those are my the sings that make this relationship so interesting

Which is what, IMHO, makes this far more akin to a classic tragedy (see Jenn's description) than a "Romance", either by traditional or modern definition. And why I, personally, can't ever see them with a "happily ever after" stamped in a heart over their fade-to-black kiss. Tragedies don't turn out that way. That's what makes them tragedies.

And frankly, I think I'd be rather disappointed if we did end up with that kind of sticky romantic ending, because I don't think it's true to the characters as they've been developed up to this point, and it totally trivializes everything each of them has been through which has changed, fundamentally, who they used to be. Not that they can't love each other, but by definition of who they've each become, it has to be a completely different kind of love than that of the two people in the carriage back in 1880-something. *That* was the stuff of romance. But a hundred and twenty some years later, battered and wrecked as they both have been, what they have left to give one another isn't going to be the chocolate and roses and sonnet kind of love, but a sort of weary holding onto each other...a quiet, sort of desperate connection that comes when two people have endured too much to ever go back yet know each other's burdens too well to ever set each other free.

So...they get what they want in the end...only not really. And that's tragedy.

Of the very best kind.

I agree that as much as I love happy endings, it would not fit well with Helen and John's history. It would not work if they had a romantic ending instead of a tragic one IMHO

[AresLover452]

the only place John and Helen are going to get some sort of Happy ending is in Fanfiction.

It's given that they will never move past things, or past each other. I'm sure John has had others just as Helen has, but that one person who touches your soul and is branded into your heart, you will never be free of them. helen and john will never be free of each other. Too much binds them together and too much separates them.

[JenniferJF]

And frankly, I think I'd be rather disappointed if we did end up with that kind of sticky romantic ending, because I don't think it's true to the characters as they've been developed up to this point, and it totally trivializes everything each of them has been through which has changed, fundamentally, who they used to be. Not that they can't love each other, but by definition of who they've each become, it has to be a completely different kind of love than that of the two people in the carriage back in 1880-something. *That* was the stuff of romance. But a hundred and twenty some years later, battered and wrecked as they both have been, what they have left to give one another isn't going to be the chocolate and roses and sonnet kind of love, but a sort of weary holding onto each other...a quiet, sort of desperate connection that comes when two people have endured too much to ever go back yet know each other's burdens too well to ever set each other free.

And this is why scifi can be more 'real' than other genres at its best. By exaggerating the situation beyond that normally found in real life, Helen and Druitt's relationship can highlight the fact that none of us end up with the love and relationship we imagined we would when we were young and first falling in love - when we really did think it would be all hearts and flowers and fluff. Not that, for most of us, it isn't that way *sometimes*... But life gets in the way and in the end, sometimes the most 'romantic' thing of all is just knowing there will be someone there to hold your hand no matter how bad the storm gets. Of course, most of us don't go through the sort of things Helen and Druitt have (OK.. who has?) but in showing that extreme, the simple truth that Life Happens and love needs to be deeper than giggles in a carriage remains the same.

So I think, for Helen and John, if they could just get back to that place - to knowing that, whatever happened, the other would be there for them and with them, on their side and at their side... That might be the most romantic thing of all.

spoilers for Haunted:

Spoiler:

And, I think, at the end of Haunted, that's exactly what John was begging for, essentially, when he told Helen he loved her. He was sacrificing his humanity for her, this time by choice, and he wanted her to know that, whatever happened, he was doing it for her and *he* - John, not the creature - was still going to be loving her regardless of what It made him do...

And Helen's last statement to him, I think, indicated she might be getting to that place as well - to understanding that *John* had always been there fighting with her despite appearances. That he'd been on her side and, in fact, keeping the creature at bay for all those years.

That's why, at least after Haunted, I think they might be able to get to *that* point, at least, even if they can never become the people they were when they were young and first falling in love. But then again, how many of us can?

Though this makes one wonder if, after Haunted, Helen's greatest guilt now may not simply be over the experimenting and results of that itself, but her own personal lack of faith in their love and in who John is.

I'm sure John has had others just as Helen has

I'm actually not sure of that. I can see why Helen has. She's been trying, I think, for over a century to move on without John and to simply have whatever kind of life she can without him. Obviously, that life is going to require intimate companionship, both physically and emotionally. Though I wonder, truthfully, how emotionally intimate she's been with others, as she seems to hold her emotions close now and I can't quite see her fully overcoming those barriers even with a lover. Plus, I always go back to her statement in Kush that John destroyed her heart... which rather implies she doesn't even have her whole heart to give to anyone anymore.

I think, though, that John hasn't been trying to move on with his life. The very first time we see him (in present time) he's staring at a picture of Helen. And when the rage fades after Tesla tortures him, his primary concern seems to be to make sure Helen is okay and to find Ashley. So I think, between and behind the rage, John has been longing for what he had and what he lost and hasn't been trying to move on at all. Plus, you know... add that to the whole serial killer/rage thing and I suspect John quite possibly hasn't had other lovers. He hasn't been trying to move on, and I think women have been the place he could vent rage (not to go into spoilers), so I can't really picture the circumstances around which he would have found himself in any kind of relationship, merely physical or otherwise.

[helenmagnus23]

It would be great to see Helen and John share a nice moment weather it be a touch,a look(little more of a look) or even a kiss that would be good just to show with no matter what's happened and in Haunted there is a chance they boath could be togther maybe not know but sometime in the future .

[yessika]

And this is why scifi can be more 'real' than other genres at its best. By exaggerating the situation beyond that normally found in real life, Helen and Druitt's relationship can highlight the fact that none of us end up with the love and relationship we imagined we would when we were young and first falling in love - when we really did think it would be all hearts and flowers and fluff. Not that, for most of us, it isn't that way *sometimes*... But life gets in the way and in the end, sometimes the most 'romantic' thing of all is just knowing there will be someone there to hold your hand no matter how bad the storm gets. Of course, most of us don't go through the sort of things Helen and Druitt have (OK.. who has?) but in showing that extreme, the simple truth that Life Happens and love needs to be deeper than giggles in a carriage remains the same.

Sci-fi has always been the best genre for relationships IMO because as you say situations can be exagerated and emotions are also accentuated along the way. Sci-fi allows for the conflicts to be more dramatic than RL conflicts and relationships are stretched that much further...

So I think, for Helen and John, if they could just get back to that place - to knowing that, whatever happened, the other would be there for them and with them, on their side and at their side... That might be the most romantic thing of all.

That would be very romantic *hopeful sigh*

<zip>

[Nynaeve506]

Let me see if I can punch in some ideas before RL makes me run again:

1. While I don't think H/J can have a fairytale ending, I do think their story *can* end with them together - it's just not going to be fluffy. I think in a lot of ways they're both world-weary and the longevity they're cursed with keeps them from having what most normal relationships have - a death (metaphorical or physical). I'm not sure I can fully comprehend what a relationship that just goes *on* looks like. It's certainly much darker and heavier with a lot of scars.

2. Helen had other lovers, but I wouldn't put it past John to have had other screws (sorry for the crude statement, but I can't think of a better term). Haunted

Spoiler:

The creature seems motivated by negative, black emotions and not all sexual desire is good - as we see in society with rape and other such things. They make him Jack the Ripper and the fact that they were whores and had their wombs cut out of them is a pretty horrendous

So have to run Try to fill in what I haven't fleshed out with my other ideas that I have stated as I can't flesh these out as much as I would like

[AresLover452]

Let me see if I can punch in some ideas before RL makes me run again:

1. While I don't think H/J can have a fairytale ending, I do think their story *can* end with them together - it's just not going to be fluffy.

No, a fairytale ending will never happen... but a mediocre ending would be nice. And I think that some time they will move past every thing and learn to be together. Too much love stands between them, despite the hurt and anger and every other negative emotion the creature has inflected.

There is still a little bit of the John that Helen loves bleeding through the creatures hold. Soon, some how i think he will be 'cured' and then he will havea lot of fences to mend.

[JenniferJF]

1. While I don't think H/J can have a fairytale ending, I do think their story *can* end with them together - it's just not going to be fluffy. I think in a lot of ways they're both world-weary and the longevity they're cursed with keeps them from having what most normal relationships have - a death (metaphorical or physical). I'm not sure I can fully comprehend what a relationship that just goes *on* looks like. It's certainly much darker and heavier with a lot of scars.

That's sort of what I was getting at. Cause realistically, NO ONE I know in RL (as far as I know) *really* has a fairly tale romantic ending to their relationship... Except, as you say, theirs sort of just keeps going. Though I'm not really sure simply the fact it keeps going on would cause it to be dark so much as the scars from the past. Cause in thinking of elderly couples I know, the really good ones seem to achieve a true union those of us just starting out (relatively) can only hope to emulate one day.

And in that way, really, we come back to how SciFi can show truths more easily than other genres. Cause in the end, all relationships stop being about joy and fuzzy bunnies and happily ever after and more about the very real Grecian concept of happiness as a state of being and that, I think, under the right circumstances, John and Helen might be capable of.

[XFchemist]

uhm, H/J relationship is so complicated!!!!!!!!!!!
I have made this vid for them. I think that the song is perfect for them...your opinions?