Helen Magnus/John Druitt Ship/Discussion/Appreciation

[helenmagnus23]

Here is my little guess as to how we could see a Kiss in season 3

S3-Kiss-Short Story

Spoiler:

For many month after Helen and John had last seen eachother Helen had started to have varouis dreams some going back to 1888 but in every dream Ashley was there soon she began to hear Ashley's voice durring the day then one day Helen was in her study Will was updating her on there latest guest when she saw Ashley standing behined Will
''Magnus ?''
Ashley started to walk away Helen got up and followed her Will also got up he followed Helen Ashley led Helen into John's stayroom she vanished as Helen walked in
''Ashley!''
Helen saw on the bedside table a peace of paper with her name on it Helen went over she picked it up and read it
To my dearest Helen

If you are reading this then i have once again fallen into darkness the deamon within wishes only violance and death and i can not let it harm you my love if i have been unsuccesful in destroying it and myself i will be waiting in the darkness, remeber Helen my love
I love you for all eternity
Love JD xoxo
Helen closed the peace of paper Will looked at her Helen turned and faced him he saw the paper in her hands
''Are you okay Helen?''
''I know where John is Will''
Helen rushed out of the room she grabbed her coat and the sonic stunner she then called Henry ,Will followed her Henry was in his van ready Helen came outside followed by Will they got in
''Where to doc?''
''For the moment we search the streets''
''You got it''
They left the Sanctuary grounds they drove around the old city two hours had gone by with no sign of John just then Helen saw Ashley standing infront of an old building in the redlight area of the old city
''Henry stop here!''
Henry stopped the van Helen got out so did Will they looked at the rundown building a couple of women stood out front under the old street light
''Why do i get the feeling this place feels like whitechappell''
''Will remain with Henry tell him to activate the EM sheild ''
''What about you?''
''I will be fine''
Helen went into the old building the old floor boards creeked as she walked just then she saw blood on the wall Helen pulled out the gun just then she saw Ashley again Helen followed her soon she came to a darkroom inside Helen saw John blood on his cloths and knife a body of a woman lay infront of him John looked at Helen
''John''
John held the bloody knife up he saw silent tears run from Helen's eyes she wiped them away Helen moved closer to him she let the knife touch her chest while he was looking at her she shot him with the modified stunner he fell to the ground the knife fell out of his hand a few moments later john wokeup he satup Helen knelt at his side
''Helen,how did you find me?''
''Ashley led me to you John''
''what did you do to me?''
''Temoprary stun it holds the creature back John ''
Helen and John looked into eachothers eye's the love they shared still burned strong John leand forward and Kissed Helen sensuly and lovingly she kissed him back it began to grow more pashonite soon they stopped they looked into eachother's eyes
''For all eternity''
''I love you John ''

A little story that i had to put up

[JenniferJF]

Spoilers for Haunted:

Spoiler:

So a friend and I were discussing what might really happen if somehow Helen (or someone else) managed to get the creature out of John. Before Haunted, neither of us could imagine them ever even 'getting back together' in any meaningful way either emotionally or physically because there seemed to be too much pain at John's perceived betrayal - his giving in to the blood lust, as it were - and mistrust that he wouldn't go insane again even when he was seemingly in control of his rage.

But now, that she knows it really isn't him, and she's again been able to spend even a brief time with him during the period the creature was in the Sanctuary, I think maybe she might be able to trust him again in order to have some sort of relationship with him again, especially given that moment in Haunted when, for the first and only time, they're sitting on the table together clearly comfortable being within each other's personal space again. Though neither of us can imagine the whole marriage and family thing for them - ever. Not even marriage, and it's not because of her mistrust of John but because, frankly, we can't imagine Helen at this point planning for happiness... After all the blows she's taken, we could imagine her and John sort of falling into a relationship based more on mutual need and despair, but without the true joy they might have been able to have once upon a time.

We're debating, though, why this is, cause my friend has suggested Helen feels a need for redemption after everything that happened in the 1880s - that in seeking to become more than she was, rather like Eve, she stepped too far and now doesn't deserve happiness. I think in Warriors she in fact seemed to think her father might come back and she was happy and excited about that, though by Haunted she seems resigned to not being happy which makes me think it's more current events which have convinced her not to try for happiness.

Anyway, figured I'd share in case anyone else wanted to jump in on the discussion...

[AstraPerAspera]

Spoilers for Haunted:

Spoiler:

So a friend and I were discussing what might really happen if somehow Helen (or someone else) managed to get the creature out of John. Before Haunted, neither of us could imagine them ever even 'getting back together' in any meaningful way either emotionally or physically because there seemed to be too much pain at John's perceived betrayal - his giving in to the blood lust, as it were - and mistrust that he wouldn't go insane again even when he was seemingly in control of his rage.

But now, that she knows it really isn't him, and she's again been able to spend even a brief time with him during the period the creature was in the Sanctuary, I think maybe she might be able to trust him again in order to have some sort of relationship with him again, especially given that moment in Haunted when, for the first and only time, they're sitting on the table together clearly comfortable being within each other's personal space again. Though neither of us can imagine the whole marriage and family thing for them - ever. Not even marriage, and it's not because of her mistrust of John but because, frankly, we can't imagine Helen at this point planning for happiness... After all the blows she's taken, we could imagine her and John sort of falling into a relationship based more on mutual need and despair, but without the true joy they might have been able to have once upon a time.

We're debating, though, why this is, cause my friend has suggested Helen feels a need for redemption after everything that happened in the 1880s - that in seeking to become more than she was, rather like Eve, she stepped too far and now doesn't deserve happiness. I think in Warriors she in fact seemed to think her father might come back and she was happy and excited about that, though by Haunted she seems resigned to not being happy which makes me think it's more current events which have convinced her not to try for happiness.

Anyway, figured I'd share in case anyone else wanted to jump in on the discussion...

Well, I'll jump in...

Spoilers for Haunted

Spoiler:

I admit, it's been a while since I watched Warriors, so I'd have to go back and watch the bit with her father again. And it's quite likely that she *is* happy at the thought that she might have her father back with her--I trust your assessment of that. So I'm trying to figure out if that's a "happy" with a little "h" or a big "H", because I don't think Helen has been unhappy all her life...I think she's had many moments of happiness from her vast experiences both personally and professionally. Isn't it at the beginning of Warriors where she and Ashley and Will are lounging around in the tent like they're out in the desert and Helen is talking about Gershwin and the Beatles? So yes...I think she's had happiness...I'm just not sure she's convinced she'll ever have Happiness.

And perhaps it's as much an issue of atonement as redemption. Because I do think that Helen feels she has, in a way, sinned. And as with Eve, her eyes were opened and she had become something far more than she might otherwise have been...but in doing so also lost the Happiness that might have been hers had she not, in her arrogance, tried to reach too far. So her entire life has been devoted to trying to atone for that one decision, especially since it's consequences were not hers alone, but affected the other 4 as well. And while three of the four really had no ill effects from that choice, except by way of feeding in to their own already elevated egos, it was John for whom, I do believe, she's always felt especially responsible, and for the atrocities he's been responsible for in all the years since...and most especially for him losing himself, because of her audacity.

So I think Helen feels like she deserves everything that happens to her. That her longevity itself is her on-going punishment and losing her father a second time...losing Watson...and especially losing Ashley are all just a litany of added on mea culpas in her long, living penitential rite.

Which makes it interesting to think about Helen's need for atonement *now*, if in fact John isn't the source of the bloodlust, but this creature is. And one might be tempted to say that Helen can now be absolved of her responsibility for him being what he was/is.

Except...she still can't. Because if he hadn't been able to teleport, then the creature never would have joined with him. And, to the best of our knowledge, John's ability to teleport came as a result of the serum.

Which brings us back to Helen again, and why, ultimately she really can't ever find redemption, even if, with time, she might find a sort of weary peace.

[JanSam]

Spoilers for Haunted:

Spoiler:

So a friend and I were discussing what might really happen if somehow Helen (or someone else) managed to get the creature out of John. Before Haunted, neither of us could imagine them ever even 'getting back together' in any meaningful way either emotionally or physically because there seemed to be too much pain at John's perceived betrayal - his giving in to the blood lust, as it were - and mistrust that he wouldn't go insane again even when he was seemingly in control of his rage.

But now, that she knows it really isn't him, and she's again been able to spend even a brief time with him during the period the creature was in the Sanctuary, I think maybe she might be able to trust him again in order to have some sort of relationship with him again, especially given that moment in Haunted when, for the first and only time, they're sitting on the table together clearly comfortable being within each other's personal space again. Though neither of us can imagine the whole marriage and family thing for them - ever. Not even marriage, and it's not because of her mistrust of John but because, frankly, we can't imagine Helen at this point planning for happiness... After all the blows she's taken, we could imagine her and John sort of falling into a relationship based more on mutual need and despair, but without the true joy they might have been able to have once upon a time.

We're debating, though, why this is, cause my friend has suggested Helen feels a need for redemption after everything that happened in the 1880s - that in seeking to become more than she was, rather like Eve, she stepped too far and now doesn't deserve happiness. I think in Warriors she in fact seemed to think her father might come back and she was happy and excited about that, though by Haunted she seems resigned to not being happy which makes me think it's more current events which have convinced her not to try for happiness.

Anyway, figured I'd share in case anyone else wanted to jump in on the discussion...

Don't forget it wasn't just John's betrayal in 1880s but also when he threatened Ashley in the present (Sanctuary For All Part 2) for which Helen couldn't forgive.

I'd have to say I agree with Helen feeling she had to pay the price for The Five. As far as her happiness; I think the recent events have weighted on her and she just can't see any happiness atm. Questions....did John ever say in The Five why exactly they chose to experiment with the vampire blood (what was their goal)? Was it all Helen's doing; or shouldn't all five of them share the guilt?

[AstraPerAspera]

Don't forget it wasn't just John's betrayal in 1880s but also when he threatened Ashley in the present (Sanctuary For All Part 2) for which Helen couldn't forgive.

I'd have to say I agree with Helen feeling she had to pay the price for The Five. As far as her happiness; I think the recent events have weighted on her and she just can't see any happiness atm. Questions....did John ever say in The Five why exactly they chose to experiment with the vampire blood (what was their goal)? Was it all Helen's doing; or shouldn't all five of them share the guilt?

IIRC, John told Ashley that it was Helen who procured the sanguine vampirus. Not only that, but she derived the serum which they all injected. As for why...they wanted to push the boundaries of science. They all had a certain amount of hubris and were equally complicit in the decision to take the injection...however, it seems that John was the least "scientific" of all of them and one could almost speculate that his decision to become involved in The Five was less out his desire for scientific advancement than it was to be with Helen in what was clearly a very important part of her life at the time. If you recall the flashback, while the other three were focused on the syringe, John's whole attention was focused on Helen. I bet he didn't care a wit about what the serum did, as long as it didn't kill her.

Anyway...the upshot is, it would seem that Helen was the driving force behind the whole experiment, so the whole thing more or less rests on her head.

As for John's actions against Ashley in the beginning of S1, tbh, I think Helen had moved beyond that, even before Haunted. When they're talking about Ashley in EoN, she tells John that he has a right, as her father, to be involved. He points out that there was a time she wouldn't have said that. And I think that's a seminal moment for the two of them, because if she still hadn't forgiven him for his actions toward Ashley, there was no way in Hades that she was going to let him near her again, let alone tell him he had a right to be involved.

And I'm not really sure Helen really ever held John's actions against him. She knew he was sick...and she firmly believed, I think, that that sickness was a direct result of her own actions. She doesn't always say that...frankly, she's all over the place as to where to lay the blame and she contradicts herself almost every single time the topic comes up. That doesn't mean that what he did in Whitechapel didn't devastate her. In fact, it destroyed her heart, as she says in Kush. And I also think that part of her thought that if John had been strong enough...had *loved* her enough...he could have fought against his base desires and not let them overcome him as they did. Of course, now (Haunted spoiler)

Spoiler:

she realizes that he did, and, in fact, that it was his love for her that kept it from becoming oh so much worse.

[Nynaeve506]

Spoilers for Haunted:

Spoiler:

So a friend and I were discussing what might really happen if somehow Helen (or someone else) managed to get the creature out of John. Before Haunted, neither of us could imagine them ever even 'getting back together' in any meaningful way either emotionally or physically because there seemed to be too much pain at John's perceived betrayal - his giving in to the blood lust, as it were - and mistrust that he wouldn't go insane again even when he was seemingly in control of his rage.

But now, that she knows it really isn't him, and she's again been able to spend even a brief time with him during the period the creature was in the Sanctuary, I think maybe she might be able to trust him again in order to have some sort of relationship with him again, especially given that moment in Haunted when, for the first and only time, they're sitting on the table together clearly comfortable being within each other's personal space again. Though neither of us can imagine the whole marriage and family thing for them - ever. Not even marriage, and it's not because of her mistrust of John but because, frankly, we can't imagine Helen at this point planning for happiness... After all the blows she's taken, we could imagine her and John sort of falling into a relationship based more on mutual need and despair, but without the true joy they might have been able to have once upon a time.

We're debating, though, why this is, cause my friend has suggested Helen feels a need for redemption after everything that happened in the 1880s - that in seeking to become more than she was, rather like Eve, she stepped too far and now doesn't deserve happiness. I think in Warriors she in fact seemed to think her father might come back and she was happy and excited about that, though by Haunted she seems resigned to not being happy which makes me think it's more current events which have convinced her not to try for happiness.

Anyway, figured I'd share in case anyone else wanted to jump in on the discussion...

Well, I'll jump in...

Spoilers for Haunted

Spoiler:

I admit, it's been a while since I watched Warriors, so I'd have to go back and watch the bit with her father again. And it's quite likely that she *is* happy at the thought that she might have her father back with her--I trust your assessment of that. So I'm trying to figure out if that's a "happy" with a little "h" or a big "H", because I don't think Helen has been unhappy all her life...I think she's had many moments of happiness from her vast experiences both personally and professionally. Isn't it at the beginning of Warriors where she and Ashley and Will are lounging around in the tent like they're out in the desert and Helen is talking about Gershwin and the Beatles? So yes...I think she's had happiness...I'm just not sure she's convinced she'll ever have Happiness.

And perhaps it's as much an issue of atonement as redemption. Because I do think that Helen feels she has, in a way, sinned. And as with Eve, her eyes were opened and she had become something far more than she might otherwise have been...but in doing so also lost the Happiness that might have been hers had she not, in her arrogance, tried to reach too far. So her entire life has been devoted to trying to atone for that one decision, especially since it's consequences were not hers alone, but affected the other 4 as well. And while three of the four really had no ill effects from that choice, except by way of feeding in to their own already elevated egos, it was John for whom, I do believe, she's always felt especially responsible, and for the atrocities he's been responsible for in all the years since...and most especially for him losing himself, because of her audacity.

So I think Helen feels like she deserves everything that happens to her. That her longevity itself is her on-going punishment and losing her father a second time...losing Watson...and especially losing Ashley are all just a litany of added on mea culpas in her long, living penitential rite.

Which makes it interesting to think about Helen's need for atonement *now*, if in fact John isn't the source of the bloodlust, but this creature is. And one might be tempted to say that Helen can now be absolved of her responsibility for him being what he was/is.

Except...she still can't. Because if he hadn't been able to teleport, then the creature never would have joined with him. And, to the best of our knowledge, John's ability to teleport came as a result of the serum.

Which brings us back to Helen again, and why, ultimately she really can't ever find redemption, even if, with time, she might find a sort of weary peace.

Weighing in

Haunted and such

Spoiler:

I also wonder if under all that need for redemption and sense of ennui with life if perhaps she's experienced too much loss to even conceive that happiness truly exists for someone "immortal" like her. Not to be cheesy but there is that Queen song LOL

One of the things Helen experiences that we don't is the transient nature of everything. It's said in the Bible for example that human life is like a vapor when compared to eternity. For all the joy she can experience, she must also deal with the grief. She makes a friend and that friend will die. She saves someone's life only to hold their hand and yet, she keeps going. (oh wait, I just got hit with a fic idea, now I just have to find the energy to write it along with my other five in my head). Which IMO makes the whole John thing even more tragic as the one person who could truly understand the heaviness is dealing with his own cross to bear. They are prevented in a cruel twist of fate from being able to comfort each other. So she carries the loneliness on.

Also, because of both her work and her longevity the wonder of the universe is somewhat made mundane. Notice how she speaks of things in such a scientific nature. It's not that she doesn't experience pleasure, but there are so few things that can simply take her breath away, leave her standing speechless and in awe.

I wonder, though this isn't based on anything I can recall seeing because I've only seen the episode once (Kali) but perhaps deeper than the global ecosystem, Big Bertha is not only a kindred spirit, but the one thing powerful enough on Earth to inspire that sense of awe in Helen.

[AresLover452]

Here is my little guess as to how we could see a Kiss in season 3

S3-Kiss-Short Story

Spoiler:

For many month after Helen and John had last seen eachother Helen had started to have varouis dreams some going back to 1888 but in every dream Ashley was there soon she began to hear Ashley's voice durring the day then one day Helen was in her study Will was updating her on there latest guest when she saw Ashley standing behined Will
''Magnus ?''
Ashley started to walk away Helen got up and followed her Will also got up he followed Helen Ashley led Helen into John's stayroom she vanished as Helen walked in
''Ashley!''
Helen saw on the bedside table a peace of paper with her name on it Helen went over she picked it up and read it
To my dearest Helen

If you are reading this then i have once again fallen into darkness the deamon within wishes only violance and death and i can not let it harm you my love if i have been unsuccesful in destroying it and myself i will be waiting in the darkness, remeber Helen my love
I love you for all eternity
Love JD xoxo
Helen closed the peace of paper Will looked at her Helen turned and faced him he saw the paper in her hands
''Are you okay Helen?''
''I know where John is Will''
Helen rushed out of the room she grabbed her coat and the sonic stunner she then called Henry ,Will followed her Henry was in his van ready Helen came outside followed by Will they got in
''Where to doc?''
''For the moment we search the streets''
''You got it''
They left the Sanctuary grounds they drove around the old city two hours had gone by with no sign of John just then Helen saw Ashley standing infront of an old building in the redlight area of the old city
''Henry stop here!''
Henry stopped the van Helen got out so did Will they looked at the rundown building a couple of women stood out front under the old street light
''Why do i get the feeling this place feels like whitechappell''
''Will remain with Henry tell him to activate the EM sheild ''
''What about you?''
''I will be fine''
Helen went into the old building the old floor boards creeked as she walked just then she saw blood on the wall Helen pulled out the gun just then she saw Ashley again Helen followed her soon she came to a darkroom inside Helen saw John blood on his cloths and knife a body of a woman lay infront of him John looked at Helen
''John''
John held the bloody knife up he saw silent tears run from Helen's eyes she wiped them away Helen moved closer to him she let the knife touch her chest while he was looking at her she shot him with the modified stunner he fell to the ground the knife fell out of his hand a few moments later john wokeup he satup Helen knelt at his side
''Helen,how did you find me?''
''Ashley led me to you John''
''what did you do to me?''
''Temoprary stun it holds the creature back John ''
Helen and John looked into eachothers eye's the love they shared still burned strong John leand forward and Kissed Helen sensuly and lovingly she kissed him back it began to grow more pashonite soon they stopped they looked into eachother's eyes
''For all eternity''
''I love you John ''

A little story that i had to put up

That was so awesome!! i love it!!!

I'd love to see that in season 3 that would Rock so much

Hehe, that was actually in the beginning of my story HEALING A BROKEN SOUL.... John and Helen were in Baja. Course you would have to read all of Reunited family to see how they got there... lol!!

[AstraPerAspera]

Weighing in

Haunted and such

Spoiler:

I also wonder if under all that need for redemption and sense of ennui with life if perhaps she's experienced too much loss to even conceive that happiness truly exists for someone "immortal" like her. Not to be cheesy but there is that Queen song LOL

One of the things Helen experiences that we don't is the transient nature of everything. It's said in the Bible for example that human life is like a vapor when compared to eternity. For all the joy she can experience, she must also deal with the grief. She makes a friend and that friend will die. She saves someone's life only to hold their hand and yet, she keeps going. (oh wait, I just got hit with a fic idea, now I just have to find the energy to write it along with my other five in my head). Which IMO makes the whole John thing even more tragic as the one person who could truly understand the heaviness is dealing with his own cross to bear. They are prevented in a cruel twist of fate from being able to comfort each other. So she carries the loneliness on.

Also, because of both her work and her longevity the wonder of the universe is somewhat made mundane. Notice how she speaks of things in such a scientific nature. It's not that she doesn't experience pleasure, but there are so few things that can simply take her breath away, leave her standing speechless and in awe.

I wonder, though this isn't based on anything I can recall seeing because I've only seen the episode once (Kali) but perhaps deeper than the global ecosystem, Big Bertha is not only a kindred spirit, but the one thing powerful enough on Earth to inspire that sense of awe in Helen.

I can't help think, though, that Helen's aloofness is part of her innate nature. She may have lived for 158 years but she was born and raised in Victorian England, which had a very different set of mores and expectations with regard to behavior and intimacy (and I'm not just talking sexual intimacy, but also in terms of friendships and even familial relations as well). And I think that, after John--where she did let her feelings take control, even to the point of conceiving a child with him--and the realization that what she got for daring to risk following her heart was the destruction of it, she retreated back into the safe mode of her upbringing and has used that as a shield ever since.

Which isn't to say she's immune to feelings and loss, because, as you say, she's had to say good-bye to too many friends. But I think her natural tendency to keep herself emotionally detached to some degree is what's managed to keep those from over-whelming her.

And it's probably what allowed her to (Haunted spoilers)

Spoiler:

simply stand there, resigned, after John teleports away at the end of Haunted...and to move on in Sleepers and Kali...because, let's face it, the poor woman has had lots of practice.

[Nynaeve506]

I can't help think, though, that Helen's aloofness is part of her innate nature. She may have lived for 158 years but she was born and raised in Victorian England, which had a very different set of mores and expectations with regard to behavior and intimacy (and I'm not just talking sexual intimacy, but also in terms of friendships and even familial relations as well). And I think that, after John--where she did let her feelings take control, even to the point of conceiving a child with him--and the realization that what she got for daring to risk following her heart was the destruction of it, she retreated back into the safe mode of her upbringing and has used that as a shield ever since.

Which isn't to say she's immune to feelings and loss, because, as you say, she's had to say good-bye to too many friends. But I think her natural tendency to keep herself emotionally detached to some degree is what's managed to keep those from over-whelming her.

And it's probably what allowed her to (Haunted spoilers)

Spoiler:

simply stand there, resigned, after John teleports away at the end of Haunted...and to move on in Sleepers and Kali...because, let's face it, the poor woman has had lots of practice.

I would agree that her aloofness is part of her innate nature (isn't there a joke about the British manners?). But Victorian upbringing and nationality aside, she still feels things deeply, just more muted to the outside world. That being said, a sense of awe and wonder is an emotion that you feel that throws you past that detachment - and that she doesn't experience *that* speaks to how life has wearied her. After all - one of the pleasures of small children is watching them discover the world for the first time because once you've lived twenty, thirty, forty, eighty years, that which was once spectacular is now contrived. What once caused a thrill is second hat and nothing to write home about. Perhaps that's part of what Helen thought of when she brought forth Ashley - the chance find the intense pleasure of being taken aback with the new. Of course, then even that was taken from her.

[AstraPerAspera]

Oh I definitely agree that with age comes a certain feeling of "been there, done that", so much so that there's little that excites or moves, and after 158 years, Helen has to be feeling that. Although I do think, once in a while, the discovery of a new abnormal does sort of thrill her. She seemed rather excited about that vampire squid in Next Tuesday. Of course, all you have to do is watch EoN and Eulogy to see that Helen is indeed capable of feeling things incredibly deeply. Some of those scenes are so absolutely heart-wrenching because we see what Helen really is capable of feeling...and doing...and they're made all that much more painful if one understands just how much of that she keeps beneath the surface so often and what terrible tragedy is required for her to let that show.

With regard to children, having Ashley did, I'm sure, bring back some of that wonder, although it was probably more an unexpected by-product of her decision than a motivation. I'm not sure I've ever heard a more poigniant rationale for bringing a child into this world has Helen's: When I could endure the loneliness no longer... *sob* Her need to be connected to someone, even knowing, as she did, that she would in all likelihood outlive her child, shows how truly isolated she was and how desperately she needed to love and be loved, because she'd denied herself that experience ever since John. And it is oh so telling that she went ahead and brought Ashley to term rather than find some other sperm-donor to be the father of her child. Because, as Jenn so correctly points out, she could have chosen so many others over so many years. But no. She chose John's child. Carefully protected and preserved. Which had to fly in the face of all her reason. Both then, when she decided to keep it...and 20 odd years ago, when she decided to bring it to term. And for Helen to abandon reason shows just how truly desperate she was, both times...to hang on to some remnant of what she (thought she) had with John...and, a hundred years later, to unthaw (and that's a very apt metaphor for probably what whe was feeling emotionally too) that remnant and allow it to become the incarnation of their love in flesh and blood.

[AresLover452]

Though right now all she is feeling is loss. Loss of John and.... well Tesla because now he is human and he will fall before the wicked hand of time. john however is a little more immortal than that. i still think he is alive

[Nynaeve506]

Oh I definitely agree that with age comes a certain feeling of "been there, done that", so much so that there's little that excites or moves, and after 158 years, Helen has to be feeling that. Although I do think, once in a while, the discovery of a new abnormal does sort of thrill her. She seemed rather excited about that vampire squid in Next Tuesday. Of course, all you have to do is watch EoN and Eulogy to see that Helen is indeed capable of feeling things incredibly deeply. Some of those scenes are so absolutely heart-wrenching because we see what Helen really is capable of feeling...and doing...and they're made all that much more painful if one understands just how much of that she keeps beneath the surface so often and what terrible tragedy is required for her to let that show.

With regard to children, having Ashley did, I'm sure, bring back some of that wonder, although it was probably more an unexpected by-product of her decision than a motivation. I'm not sure I've ever heard a more poigniant rationale for bringing a child into this world has Helen's: When I could endure the loneliness no longer... *sob* Her need to be connected to someone, even knowing, as she did, that she would in all likelihood outlive her child, shows how truly isolated she was and how desperately she needed to love and be loved, because she'd denied herself that experience ever since John. And it is oh so telling that she went ahead and brought Ashley to term rather than find some other sperm-donor to be the father of her child. Because, as Jenn so correctly points out, she could have chosen so many others over so many years. But no. She chose John's child. Carefully protected and preserved. Which had to fly in the face of all her reason. Both then, when she decided to keep it...and 20 odd years ago, when she decided to bring it to term. And for Helen to abandon reason shows just how truly desperate she was, both times...to hang on to some remnant of what she (thought she) had with John...and, a hundred years later, to unthaw (and that's a very apt metaphor for probably what whe was feeling emotionally too) that remnant and allow it to become the incarnation of their love in flesh and blood.

You're right, she does get a thrill. Maybe I'm thinking more of the awe and shock that we see most "normal" people have to an abnormal the first time they run into one (like seeing a mermaid for the first time).

And I whole-heartedly agree that her primary, conscious reason for having Ashley is her loneliness (it is such an incredibly painful and gut-wrenching reason!!! I wonder if perhaps she hoped beyond reason that her daughter would somehow inherit her longevity). I find her story with John and Ashley so incredibly poignant as a counterpoint to her regular "scientific" thinking. She calculates and plans down to the most tiny detail with very sound and logical reasons - but with John... her reason tells her the man is mad, a psychopath, filled with rage and bloodlust and yet she keeps loving him and as you & Jenn point out has *his* child.

What a tragically beautiful love story.

[JenniferJF]

I pose a question then go to work for twelve hours...

How clever of me

Putting the entire thing in spoilers so I don't have to get confused every time I mention stuff that happened in Haunted:

Spoiler:

I admit, it's been a while since I watched Warriors, so I'd have to go back and watch the bit with her father again. And it's quite likely that she *is* happy at the thought that she might have her father back with her--I trust your assessment of that. So I'm trying to figure out if that's a "happy" with a little "h" or a big "H", because I don't think Helen has been unhappy all her life...I think she's had many moments of happiness from her vast experiences both personally and professionally. Isn't it at the beginning of Warriors where she and Ashley and Will are lounging around in the tent like they're out in the desert and Helen is talking about Gershwin and the Beatles? So yes...I think she's had happiness...I'm just not sure she's convinced she'll ever have Happiness.

In reading this, I can't help but wonder if maybe when she first found Gregory again she thought that, maybe, she might find redemption in him. A father, after all, is a Very Important person in ones life, and having him back... and able, quite literally, to judge and justify her actions (at the end she is wanting to tell him everything she's been doing...) might in fact be an important step in her finally being able to fine atonement and gain redemption and feel free then to chose happiness. So being happy with *Gregory* might be a very specific sort of Happiness which would, in fact, enable her to find happiness elsewhere. Of course, she fails to find happiness with Gregory which, conversely, might have only made her feel even less worthy of finding it elsewhere... (If even Dad rejects me...) Or, as you bring up atonement, Gregory as her father and mentor might be the one capable of granting her atonement so she can finally be redeemed.

Not that Gregory did, in fact, reject her, of course. I'm speaking of a very visceral emotional reaction here and how it quite likely felt to Helen on a deeply subconscious level.

Which makes it interesting to think about Helen's need for atonement *now*, if in fact John isn't the source of the bloodlust, but this creature is. And one might be tempted to say that Helen can now be absolved of her responsibility for him being what he was/is.

Except...she still can't. Because if he hadn't been able to teleport, then the creature never would have joined with him. And, to the best of our knowledge, John's ability to teleport came as a result of the serum.

Which brings us back to Helen again, and why, ultimately she really can't ever find redemption, even if, with time, she might find a sort of weary peace.

I'd argue, possibly, having it be an external creature actually makes her *more* culpable from her own perspective rather than less because, while it was simply some aspect of John's personality, or some insanity he succumbed to as a result of his power or the blood, it was at least partly his fault. But now, with him as victim of the creature, she becomes in a way fully responsible for his condition.

Of course, I'm assuming that, as you said, because it was her idea and as she even said in The Five, she should go first because of that, I think she did feel the chief responsibility for everything that happened lay on her. It's not necessarily correct, but I think in this issue as pointed out, Helen isn't really led by logic.

What a tragically beautiful love story.

*sob* Yes, it is. Truly amazing, and really tragic in a classical way. As described here:

Definition: Tragedy depicts the downfall of a noble hero or heroine, usually through some combination of hubris, fate, and the will of the gods. The tragic hero's powerful wish to achieve some goal inevitably encounters limits, usually those of human frailty (flaws in reason, hubris, society), the gods (through oracles, prophets, fate), or nature. Aristotle says that the tragic hero should have a flaw and/or make some mistake (hamartia). The hero need not die at the end, but he / she must undergo a change in fortune. In addition, the tragic hero may achieve some revelation or recognition (anagnorisis--"knowing again" or "knowing back" or "knowing throughout" ) about human fate, destiny, and the will of the gods. Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate."

If that doesn't describe the situation we're talking about, and apply to both Helen and John, then what does?

And how often does one find true tragedy anywhere, let alone on Television?!?

[helenmagnus23]

Though right now all she is feeling is loss. Loss of John and.... well Tesla because now he is human and he will fall before the wicked hand of time. john however is a little more immortal than that. i still think he is alive

Me to

S2-S3

Spoiler:

Helen has lost so much this season the attacks by the Cabal ,loosing Ashley,James, Clara and Tesla know being human but with cool powers and know possibly John it's a lot even for her and in her long life she has probably never lost so much as she has lost know especialy the ones closest to her heart .

Haunted
With Helen and John boath finding out the cause of his madness being this entity inside of him i hope Helen can find away to remove it from him or at least keep it at bay within him (tolan goa'uld restriner).

[AresLover452]

I hope she does to. They have had to deal with enough and now they need a chance for them. A little light at the end of a very dark tunnel.