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Helen Magnus/John Druitt Ship/Discussion/Appreciation

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    Ashley
    Spoiler:
    Originally posted by helenmagnus23 View Post
    Would Ash have part of this entity inside her like woven into her genetic makeup? the reason i ask is in THE FIVE John say's to her he see's the same Killer instincs in her as in him and also i'm wondering how long after taking the pure blood did the creature latch onto John ?
    I think John was simply wrong. He didn't know, of course, that the rage and the violence weren't drawn up from inside him (hence his comments not only in The Five but to Helen at the start of EoN2). It wasn't until Haunted that he realizes it. So he simply thought her violence and rage came from him... Which is interesting, cause based on the John we see in Haunted (and I'm guessing the John whose first instinct was to save Helen in The Five and to prevent the chaos of the Cabal and to give whatever it took to get Ashley back and safe in EoN without having to go to war are John's own personality as they match that gentleness and thoughtfulness I think we see in Haunted), she couldn't have gotten it from him, which is why I think she got it from somewhere else - possibly Helen herself.

    Remember, just because a character thinks something or says something doesn't automatically mean they're right...
    Haunted:
    Spoiler:
    I agree with those of you who've said it will be interesting to see Helen's reaction to this. Does she work to try to figure out some way of getting the creature out of John and contained (for some reason I flash to Ghostbusters every time I think that)? I'd think, given the circumstances, she certainly would do so as soon as possible, then wait for a chance to find him and free him. Not simply even because it's John but because, really, containing and securing rare and dangerous abnormals - which the creature certainly is - is sort of what she does. So there'd be no reason for her not to and every reason - both professional and personal - for him to figure out a way to free him.

    Though, I'll add, I think at the end of Haunted we do see Helen 'pass judgement' on John. She tells him: "It would have killed a lot more if it weren't for you. You kept it at bay". Effectively, that's her letting him know she now realizes the murders weren't committed *because* of him but in fact, he'd prevented even more murders by fighting the creature and containing it. Because she says 'kept' here, not 'you're keeping' - the past tense and not the present. She was telling him he was the hero, not the villain. That, imho, is her judgement in this episode.
    Last edited by JenniferJF; 18 January 2010, 01:07 AM.

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      SFA,EON,The Five&Haunted-S3
      Spoiler:
      I wounder know that boath Helen and John know what the cause of his madness is and with John taking the creature back would the entity be crazy enough in season 3 to leave a bloody trail for Helen to find it or like a goa'uld would be intelegent enough to try to kill John from the inside if Helen find's away to remove it from John ?
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      (''For all Eternity'') Ripperette,MultishipperAmanda=Angel Magnett,Teslan,Willen

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        Haunted:
        Spoiler:
        Originally posted by helenmagnus23 View Post
        [B]I wounder know that boath Helen and John know what the cause of his madness is and with John taking the creature back would the entity be crazy enough in season 3 to leave a bloody trail for Helen to find it or like a goa'uld would be intelegent enough to try to kill John from the inside if Helen find's away to remove it from John ?
        Maybe it's cause it's early here, but I just had this image of John having just enough control left to make sure the creature leaves a string of bodies, like bread crumbs, behind him so Helen can find them... It's actually a really good question, though, in all seriousness and that would add an extra dimension of risk if the creature did have a way of harming John.

        A friend has a theory that Helen is John's great tie to sanity and the reason he's been able to fight it at all all this time in which case the creature might, in fact, lure her into what it considers a trap. This may, in fact, be the reason John left at the end of Haunted - he sensed Helen herself was the creatures primary target and left to protect her.

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          S3
          Spoiler:
          Originally posted by JenniferJF
          A friend has a theory that Helen is John's great tie to sanity and the reason he's been able to fight it at all all this time in which case the creature might, in fact, lure her into what it considers a trap. This may, in fact, be the reason John left at the end of Haunted - he sensed Helen herself was the creatures primary target and left to protect her.
          That's a realy good theory .

          I'm still thinking what if the entity tries to bait her out knowing what it know's from it's time being in the Sanctuaries main system's and from what John know's combing the two and using it against her ? and if it's powerfull enough could it fully overtake John like a computer virus ?
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          (''For all Eternity'') Ripperette,MultishipperAmanda=Angel Magnett,Teslan,Willen

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            Haunted:
            Spoiler:
            Originally posted by helenmagnus23 View Post
            and if it's powerfull enough could it fully overtake John like a computer virus ?
            I think that's what it was trying to do, yeah. Helen's point - I think - was that, considering being in the Sanctuary itself resulted in the attempt at weapons of mass destruction and near mass murder (today the Sanctuary.. tomorrow the world), yet John constrained it to serial killings for a century, he'd managed to resist it's influence and it's complete control. But I do think that's what it was going for.
            Last edited by JenniferJF; 18 January 2010, 09:33 AM.

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              While it's definitely true that one of the best parts of Sanctuary is the continued evolution of the characters, I still have to confess I find the change with John somewhat maddening. *Who* is he?

              Haunted
              Spoiler:
              Yes, the creature was fueling John's rage, but where is John in all of this? It certainly absolves John of a lot of things and demonstrates that he is incredibly strong, but I hate that I don't know him. I wish they had given us more of who he once was and perhaps they will do so in S. 3.

              I don't think it makes Helen crazy that she had been in love with John while thinking he was a killer. Trying to unlove someone that was your first, that you were intimate with and that you had a child with is no easy task. The depth of emotion that she shared with John had to go somewhere - often times it's a thin line between love and hate and I think in trying not to hate (because of her nature) it hindered her ability to let him go. Of course now that she knows it wasn't he creature I think she's been given vindication.


              Ashley
              Spoiler:
              I was thinking that it was thought that John died when he teleported out of the sanctuary back in S. 1 but it just seriously hurt him, perhaps there is a similar chance that happened to Ashley? I really liked her character - moreso than Kate's. Kate's character feels a little too contrived for me - badass tough girl with the rough childhood goes nasty becomes good because of a simple kindness. Plus I want to see how Ashley reacts to all of this new John/Helen stuff

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                Haunted:
                Spoiler:
                Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                Yes, the creature was fueling John's rage, but where is John in all of this? It certainly absolves John of a lot of things and demonstrates that he is incredibly strong, but I hate that I don't know him. I wish they had given us more of who he once was and perhaps they will do so in S. 3.
                I think, as with Ashley's death we were meant to feel the grief and pain of losing someone we really wanted to spend more time with, the same is true in this instance. Because John himself - ironically - doesn't realize who he is. For over a century he's thought he was this rage-filled, violent man and it's only in Haunted that he was, in truth, hijacked by this creature which - quite literally - stole his life and his happiness from him. And he realizes, along with the audience, that nearly everything he'd thought he'd known about himself wasn't true and thus he realizes he didn't even know himself. Again, the audience has been placed in a position where we can empathize with the characters. It might not be nice, and it might not be comfortable, but they've managed to achieve that with this show, which is - IMHO - amazing. Pushing us - as well as the characters - outside our comfort zone. This is anything but popcorn TV.
                Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                I don't think it makes Helen crazy that she had been in love with John while thinking he was a killer. Trying to unlove someone that was your first, that you were intimate with and that you had a child with is no easy task. The depth of emotion that she shared with John had to go somewhere - often times it's a thin line between love and hate and I think in trying not to hate (because of her nature) it hindered her ability to let him go. Of course now that she knows it wasn't he creature I think she's been given vindication.
                That's pretty much what I meant. Because, until Haunted, she was more in love with the memory - or the belief (which you probably felt had been mistaken) in who she'd thought John was. Which despite everything, she couldn't get rid of. It's more like *she* likely felt she was being foolish and sentimental, and part of her harshness towards him was, I think, her barriers against those feelings which she believe to be inappropriate. And exactly on the vindication. Because now she knows she wasn't 'wrong' at all - the man she fell in love with and is in love with really exists.


                Ashley
                Spoiler:
                Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                I was thinking that it was thought that John died when he teleported out of the sanctuary back in S. 1 but it just seriously hurt him, perhaps there is a similar chance that happened to Ashley? I really liked her character - moreso than Kate's. Kate's character feels a little too contrived for me - badass tough girl with the rough childhood goes nasty becomes good because of a simple kindness. Plus I want to see how Ashley reacts to all of this new John/Helen stuff
                I actually think bringing Ashley back will be easy.. it's more - IMHO - a question of whether they choose to at all ultimately and how completely she comes back (guest one-shot, regular, regular recurring) and the story they choose to tell around that. The actual mechanics of it - explaining how she survived - will depend on all that and they can make up almost *anything* to justify her existence within whatever scenario they choose to use.

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                  Haunted:
                  Spoiler:

                  Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                  I think, as with Ashley's death we were meant to feel the grief and pain of losing someone we really wanted to spend more time with, the same is true in this instance. Because John himself - ironically - doesn't realize who he is. For over a century he's thought he was this rage-filled, violent man and it's only in Haunted that he was, in truth, hijacked by this creature which - quite literally - stole his life and his happiness from him. And he realizes, along with the audience, that nearly everything he'd thought he'd known about himself wasn't true and thus he realizes he didn't even know himself. Again, the audience has been placed in a position where we can empathize with the characters. It might not be nice, and it might not be comfortable, but they've managed to achieve that with this show, which is - IMHO - amazing. Pushing us - as well as the characters - outside our comfort zone. This is anything but popcorn TV.
                  No, it's not popcorn tv but at the same time I find it a little... hard to buy is probably the best way to describe what I'm feeling. Granted, he's spent a century being this rage-filled man, but for crying out loud, he was an adult when this happened. Did he think it was some latent bloodlust that just burst out one day? I mean, if I wake up tomorrow and start hacking people up, that's going to cause me some mental confusion because today, I don't have any violent urges. I just don't think he can be *that* ignorant to who he is. Confused, I'll grant that. On one hand I like what the story line has done for Helen and John, on the other, I sort of feel like maybe it was a bit of a cop out too. I'll have to see how they spin in S. 3 I'm just really waffling on how I feel about it (which hey, I think that's okay, I don't think we have to like everything our shows do, it doesn't make me irate or anything, I just need a little more to be convinced of it)

                  Comment


                    Haunted
                    Spoiler:
                    Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post
                    No, it's not popcorn tv but at the same time I find it a little... hard to buy is probably the best way to describe what I'm feeling. Granted, he's spent a century being this rage-filled man, but for crying out loud, he was an adult when this happened. Did he think it was some latent bloodlust that just burst out one day? I mean, if I wake up tomorrow and start hacking people up, that's going to cause me some mental confusion because today, I don't have any violent urges. I just don't think he can be *that* ignorant to who he is. Confused, I'll grant that. On one hand I like what the story line has done for Helen and John, on the other, I sort of feel like maybe it was a bit of a cop out too. I'll have to see how they spin in S. 3 I'm just really waffling on how I feel about it (which hey, I think that's okay, I don't think we have to like everything our shows do, it doesn't make me irate or anything, I just need a little more to be convinced of it)
                    Absolutely not. And I think he (they) believed there was some outside influence which had caused his 'insanity', I just don't think they knew how much - that all of his rage had come from that creature. Remember, the blood supposedly brought out latent characteristics and traits in them. I do agree, too, it'd be nice to really *see* more of the past and what really happened.

                    EDIT: Lookie! New bigger Avatar!
                    Last edited by JenniferJF; 18 January 2010, 04:13 PM.

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                      I just hope Helen ends up cutting John some slack some time down the road.
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                        Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                        Haunted
                        Spoiler:
                        Absolutely not. And I think he (they) believed there was some outside influence which had caused his 'insanity', I just don't think they knew how much - that all of his rage had come from that creature. Remember, the blood supposedly brought out latent characteristics and traits in them. I do agree, too, it'd be nice to really *see* more of the past and what really happened.

                        EDIT: Lookie! New bigger Avatar!
                        Haunted, S3, Ashley
                        Spoiler:
                        I would definetly like to *see* more of the past and maybe a defined notion of the creature's influence on John's actions

                        I think Ashley's return in season 3 (in a any shape or form) should not be that hard to figure out, I mean they are so good at explaining things like that
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                          Originally posted by yessika View Post
                          Haunted, S3, Ashley
                          Spoiler:
                          I would definetly like to *see* more of the past and maybe a defined notion of the creature's influence on John's actions

                          I think Ashley's return in season 3 (in a any shape or form) should not be that hard to figure out, I mean they are so good at explaining things like that

                          [SPOILER] I would love to have Ashley and John's return to coincide. that would be awesome to see Helen deal with that. On one hand having to cure John and on the other having overwhelming joy for Ashley's return.[/SPOILERS]
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                            ^ Ditto!!
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                              It would be really interesting to see her balance the two.... But I would settle for having John around more.
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                                Originally posted by AresLover452 View Post
                                It would be really interesting to see her balance the two.... But I would settle for having John around more.
                                I don't know but I think I agree with you (because I thunk John )
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